Author Topic: Engineering Question - Water Pressure  (Read 1607 times)

Nick1911

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Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« on: February 11, 2007, 10:48:44 AM »
Im trying to design a simple, variable water pressure regulator, but I lack any background in this sort of thing.  Below are two designs Im considering, and I think that design two would work, based on my limited understanding of physics.



Thoughts?  Ideas?  This does not need to be a precision device, but it does need to knock house water pressure down to a more manageable level (10-20 psi).  Ive considered buying something, but adjustable regulators arent cheap, plus I like to learn new stuff. :-)

Thanks!

MechAg94

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2007, 11:04:52 AM »
I would think you would need that little hole venting the spring space to the outlet.  Otherwise, you might leak from the HP side to that space and equalize pressure.  Depends on the internal dimensions I guess.

Have you just tried an orifice in the line to restrict flow?  Or a globe valve for the same purpose.
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280plus

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2007, 11:06:40 AM »
Usually there's a diaphragm to sparate the pressure side from the spring side.
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Mannlicher

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2007, 11:11:32 AM »
is this kinda like reinventing the wheel?  I am sure there are products already on the market that do this.

wmenorr67

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2007, 11:21:15 AM »
Mannlicher you are probably correct.  But is it not the American way to learn to do something better and even less expensive than what is being used now.  If Nick can design an item that meets his needs and is cheaper and better than something that can already be built would he not be ahead of the game.  Hell if it is that much better he could even make money on the idea.
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Nick1911

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2007, 11:22:40 AM »
Quote
is this kinda like reinventing the wheel?  I am sure there are products already on the market that do this.

Granted, this has been done before, and probably better then Ill be able to do it.  That said, I would like to have knowledge of how these things work and to that end some clue how to build one if I wanted.

Quote
Have you just tried an orifice in the line to restrict flow?  Or a globe valve for the same purpose.

This was my first idea, however the system that needs the water pressure doesn't always use water, so the pressure equalizes in short order causing all kinds of problems with my solenoid valves which can't take that kind of pressure.

That said  in theory would this design work?  Is this basically what all the other ones on the market do?





Leatherneck

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2007, 11:56:13 AM »
I believe each of your concepts with the back-channels will leak into the spring cavity and, presumably, outside the regulator. What you've designed so far are flow restrictors, not pressure regulators.

A flow restrictor will effectively reduce pressure when your water-using application is active, but it won't necessarily be steady pressure.

What you would need is a secondary pressure vessel, filled by a flow restrictor valve like you've designed; one that would open when the secondary pressure dropped to 10 psi, and would close when the pressure built to 20 psi.

I don't see what you're trying to accomplish with those channels to the spring cavity. HTH.

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CAnnoneer

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2007, 01:02:07 PM »
What you have shown us will not work as a pressure regulator. It will put out no pressure until you apply pressure high enough to contract the spring, at which point input and output will see the same pressure in a static situation. At best, the drawn system will function as a leaky non-linear valve beyond the opening pressure.

I would recommend against designing and building a pressure regulator on your own. If the pressure is low, you probably don't need one; if the pressure is high, it would be a silly health-risk to take. There are many companies that do a great job at building one and sell them pretty cheap - check out AirTrol. If you still want to make one yourself, check out the design principles on the internet - blueprints from manufacturer or wikipedia. Many of these regulators are designed to keep constant pressure by controlled leak, so make sure whatever you regulate is not dangerous; otherwise, look for the non-leaky type.

Iain

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2007, 01:12:45 PM »
Nick, everytime you post something like this I get these premonitions of seeing you on the news someday.
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Nick1911

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2007, 01:50:26 PM »
Nick, everytime you post something like this I get these premonitions of seeing you on the news someday.

Oddly, I hear that kind of stuff all the time.  To quote one of my good friends: "Nick, you are either going to end up in jail on death row, or you are going to be very, very rich."  Ill take it as a compliment. :-)

Quote
What you have shown us will not work as a pressure regulator. It will put out no pressure until you apply pressure high enough to contract the spring, at which point input and output will see the same pressure in a static situation.

I have real trouble wrapping my head around this.  I look at design three, and to me it looks like it would work, but I know it won't.  Maybe because liquids are not elastic?  Would design three work on air?

Quote
A flow restrictor will effectively reduce pressure when your water-using application is active, but it won't necessarily be steady pressure.

Exactly what I've been battling with!  My initial attempt was to use a simple valve that wasn't open much, but as soon as the water stopped flowing, the pressure equalized and everything broke lose.

Quote
I would recommend against designing and building a pressure regulator on your own. If the pressure is low, you probably don't need one; if the pressure is high, it would be a silly health-risk to take. There are many companies that do a great job at building one and sell them pretty cheap - check out AirTrol.

Good point.  Noted.

Quote
If you still want to make one yourself, check out the design principles on the internet - blueprints from manufacturer or wikipedia. Many of these regulators are designed to keep constant pressure by controlled leak, so make sure whatever you regulate is not dangerous; otherwise, look for the non-leaky type.

I've had difficulty finding this concept clearly diagrammed and explained.  Do you happen to have a link to somewhere that has a good write up about how these devices work?

Quote
Many of these regulators are designed to keep constant pressure by controlled leak, so make sure whatever you regulate is not dangerous; otherwise, look for the non-leaky type.

I'm regulating water from city pressure, which seems to be quite high here, down to between 10 and 20 psi.  I will have access to a drain, so as long as the leak isn't a lot, this would be fine.

Quote
What you would need is a secondary pressure vessel, filled by a flow restrictor valve like you've designed; one that would open when the secondary pressure dropped to 10 psi, and would close when the pressure built to 20 psi.

So, this is another thought - if I had the location of the valve higher then the rest of the unit in operation, I could probably use a float carb bowl kind of idea.  It's too messy really, and I don't think the flow would be good however.

I've seen in-line regulators for RV's advertised before.  This will not work for me, as the pressure is set at 40psi normally, but how do these work?  They seem to take up very little room.

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2007, 04:19:12 PM »
You need to have a diaphragm that seals the high pressure side off from the spring assembly, then you need a bleeder to reference the low side / reduced pressure to the spring side of the diaphragm. Then as as you shut off down stream and the pressure begins to rise a combination of the spring pressure AND the downstream water pressure close the valve against the high pressure. So as down stream pressure drops upon release the high pressure exerts enough force on the diaphragm to start opening the valve and make that pressure up. Downstream pressure is controlled by adjusting the spring tension.
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Leatherneck

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2007, 06:03:29 AM »
Yup. What 280 said.

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erik the bold

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2007, 06:21:40 AM »
What you're looking for is a pressure reducing valve.  Used a lot in hydraulic systems, not so much with water systems.  For experimentation sake, I would try a cheap air regulator for use with air tools and such. Not sure how repeatable it would be, but I think it would work.

What is the flow rate required?  Watts makes some smaller ones in the $40-60 range.  See: http://www.wattsreg.com/pdf/pg-prv.pdf
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Desertdog

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2007, 07:55:30 AM »
Quote
Granted, this has been done before, and probably better then Ill be able to do it.  That said, I would like to have knowledge of how these things work and to that end some clue how to build one if I wanted.
Having worked with/repaired/installed many pressure regulators, the thought of trying to design one that is equal to or better than what is on the market would not enter my mind.

A pressure regulator, (water,air, gas,) is a very precise piece of equiptment.  They came in all pressre ranges and volumes, whatever your system would require.

If you just want to learn how they work, I am sure that you can learn either from the internet, or go to a local plumber and ask for the detailed drawings of different types of regulators, explaining to them that you just want to learn how they work.

Keep learning, nothing wrong with that.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Engineering Question - Water Pressure
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2007, 08:16:16 AM »
Quote from: Nick1911
I'm regulating water from city pressure, which seems to be quite high here, down to between 10 and 20 psi.  I will have access to a drain, so as long as the leak isn't a lot, this would be fine.

Then don't do it; buy yourself one. Call AirTrol, or go to HomeDepot or OSH.