Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on January 12, 2016, 05:18:01 PM
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John Earnest says not to worry, this is why we have the "Iran Deal". Hopefully the sailors wil lbe released soon and unharmed.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/01/12/as-many-as-10-us-sailors-detained-by-iran.html?intcmp=hpbt3
http://twitchy.com/2016/01/12/pentagon-reports-that-two-navy-boats-are-in-iranian-custody-crew-to-be-returned-promptly/
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A competent president would give them 30 min to release our *expletive deleted*it before the missiles start flying.
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^^^^Since the USA uses the 'navigation error' or 'equipment breakdown' excuse frequently as a cover for espionage, it behooves us to treat these cases politely, unless we want to start getting our troops back in coffins after they have been summarily executed for spying. The Cold War has many examples of this.
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(https://adask.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/obama10.png?w=645)
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^^^^Since the USA uses the 'navigation error' or 'equipment breakdown' excuse frequently as a cover for espionage, it behooves us to treat these cases politely, unless we want to start getting our troops back in coffins after they have been summarily executed for spying. The Cold War has many examples of this.
True in those cases, but that's not how the Iranians work.
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Interesting timing.
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True in those cases, but that's not how the Iranians work.
How do they work exactly?
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How do they work exactly?
Hold onto to the foreign nationals until the very day the next US POTUS is being sworn in.
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^^^^Since the USA uses the 'navigation error' or 'equipment breakdown' excuse frequently as a cover for espionage, it behooves us to treat these cases politely, unless we want to start getting our troops back in coffins after they have been summarily executed for spying. The Cold War has many examples of this.
This. Looks like Iran is learning the game. We deny it's an intel op. They don't make it too big of a deal and send the sailors home alive and well (while keeping the gear and analyzing the hell out of it all).
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The solution to that is once we have our people back safe and the other party refuses to return equipment we blow our stuff to hell and everything and everyone close by (1000 yd radius) goes with it.
Blame it the other guy monkey fingering ordnance they didn't know how to handle.
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The solution to that is once we have our people back safe and the other party refuses to return equipment we blow our stuff to hell and everything and everyone close by (1000 yd radius) goes with it.
Blame it the other guy monkey fingering ordnance they didn't know how to handle.
And they should start with a small yield weapon down the stack of the USS Pueblo. [ar15]
bob
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The crews and boats were released this morning.
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Yup. Release is in the news.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/01/13/iran-says-prompt-release-detained-us-sailors-is-speculation.html
Boats released, too. The U.S. story now is that one of the boats had a mechanical "malfunction," causing them to "drift" into Iranian territorial waters. Nice try -- you mean Navy boats don't have any rope on board, so the functioning boat could attach a tow line to keep them out of hostile territory?
There's no doubt about it -- this country needs a regime change. The whole gummint has been best with incompetence.
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Releasing the sailors the next day was very courteous of them. Ditto the boats. While you should never forget the past, especially for actions taken by governments, the past should not be shackles either. If Iran wants to turn over a new leaf and from here forward acts on it, it's in our interest to do the same. We have enough enemies in the world. Even mildly hostile but amicable enough relations are better than enemy, assuming both parties live up to it.
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Boats released, too. The U.S. story now is that one of the boats had a mechanical "malfunction," causing them to "drift" into Iranian territorial waters. Nice try -- you mean Navy boats don't have any rope on board, so the functioning boat could attach a tow line to keep them out of hostile territory?
"Why didn't they tow?" was my first armchair quarterback thought as well.
Apparently the Iranians kept the GPS/nav equipment, but the US quoted source said it was no big deal, which could lend itself to the "on purpose" theory. Though they had a woman on board. Given how women, especially women prisoners, are prone to be treated in that part of the world, if it was an intelligence gathering op, you would think it would be an all male crew in case of capture. Who knows. Maybe that was part of the plan. If there was a plan. :)
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That was not an Intel op. I know those boats. They are the port security boats that the US Navy uses around our stuff in the Gulf. That route (Kuwait to Bahrain) is an often used run by US military vessels. There's an approved course line. Due to some crappy geography and a couple islands claimed by Iran you don't have a lot of wiggle room before you run into them.
Also, no those boats don't carry towlines all the time. Emergency procedure would be to rig a hip tow with mooring lines, but wind and sea conditions could easily make that untenable.
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That was not an Intel op. I know those boats. They are the port security boats that the US Navy uses around our stuff in the Gulf. That route (Kuwait to Bahrain) is an often used run by US military vessels. There's an approved course line. Due to some crappy geography and a couple islands claimed by Iran you don't have a lot of wiggle room before you run into them.
Also, no those boats don't carry towlines all the time. Emergency procedure would be to rig a hip tow with mooring lines, but wind and sea conditions could easily make that untenable.
Well, Occam's razor comes through again. :)
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Well, Occam's razor comes through again. :)
Here's the list of probability of how and why things occur as they do.
RevDisk's Razor of Causation:
1. Bad %#)#&#@ luck
2. Incompetence
3. Something incredibly simple and/or stupid
4. Something incredibly petty
5. It was actually planned ahead of time in an organized, coherent manner for some mundane purpose.
6. Every other possible or logical conclusion
7. It is a conspiracy or dark sinister purpose
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^^^This should be engraved on a stone tablet somewhere.
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looks like the Republican Guards first humilated the sailors, and America, and then let them go. We have never had such a bunch of pussies in the Pentegon and the Administration before. Even Jimmy Carter would have been tougher.
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Well *expletive deleted*it.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/iran-releases-video-of-u-s-sailor-apologizing-that-was-our-mistake/
And that's why you don't say ANYTHING on tape while detained.
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Were the sailors all related? And was their last name "Bergdahl"?....
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Due to some crappy geography and a couple islands claimed by Iran you don't have a lot of wiggle room before you run into them.
That's the truth. When we were taking leisurely jaunts around the Gulf at night back in the late 80's early 90's looking for pleasure boaters laying mines it was not uncommon to see AA fire coming up from some chunk of land/oil rig you didn't even know had people on it. They just shot at the sound, we were blacked out and I don't believe they could see us. Some of the times it happened around Farsi Island.
bob
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I've seen it speculated that they ran out of gas. That's a long run in a tiny boat. Maybe the fuelling rig missed the RV? That would explain why both were adrift.
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That was not an Intel op. I know those boats. They are the port security boats that the US Navy uses around our stuff in the Gulf. That route (Kuwait to Bahrain) is an often used run by US military vessels. There's an approved course line. Due to some crappy geography and a couple islands claimed by Iran you don't have a lot of wiggle room before you run into them.
Also, no those boats don't carry towlines all the time. Emergency procedure would be to rig a hip tow with mooring lines, but wind and sea conditions could easily make that untenable.
In the Coast Guard (and Army too, I was an 88K) we use these things called "knots" or "bends". You can join several mooring lines together and use that as a tow line. :laugh: (having taken an obligatory dig at the Navy, I wasn't there, don't know what happened or how quick it happened and I'm joking.)
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So now who gets the bigger hammer? The guy who chucked the Code of Conduct out the porthole or his *expletive deleted*che comrade who is now known by the whole world to have worn white socks in uniform? [popcorn]
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In the Coast Guard (and Army too, I was an 88K) we use these things called "knots" or "bends". You can join several mooring lines together and use that as a tow line.
Yeah, but having tried to tow with the 5/8" nylon squids use as mooring lines, I know better.
Where and when were you a Kilo? I'm in 880A1 right now. Been an LCU2000 Boatswain for a while before I went to the dark side.
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I was in the Navy from 1984 to 1988. When I left active duty I wanted to join the reserves. The nearest Navy Reserve center was 50 miles away. Less than 10 miles away was an Army Reserve unit with LARC 60's. I went and watched a drill one Saturday. After driving the LARC around we cruised up and down the beach looking for college girls to offer boat rides to, I figured this was better than what the Navy had to offer. I went to AIT in 1989. After the Gulf War the Army stopped enlistments for prior service personnel (I wanted to go into intell and then to OCS) so I took my degree and joined the Coast Guard.
I struck BM and was applying to OCS when the flight surgeon figured out that I was trying to cheat my way through the eye exam and he squashed my dream of becoming a helicopter pilot. I had already completed my Surfman pqs and figured that was way better than being a non pilot officer in the CG so I withdrew my OCS application. The detailer helped me with that decision by voluntolding me into another surf station assignment and that set me onto a very narrow career path. I wanted to spend a lot more time on cutters but being a surfman has been pretty cool. This summer I go through the assignment process again, I may retire in 2017 or take one more tour and then retire in 2020.
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Well, Occam's razor comes through again. :)
So ... incompetence it is, then?
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Several pics posted of all the gun mounts are clear. Wondering if they scuttled hardware.
If there was any intel ops or top secret comms gear on board wouldn't they dump that also?
Odd thought I had was this a setup and yes we are talking about himself.
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Hognose weighs in
http://weaponsman.com/?p=28693
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Hognose weighs in
http://weaponsman.com/?p=28693
From the photos, the most embarrassing part of the whole debacle is that they were captured by a little Boston Whaler knockoff.
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Any bets that their ROE strictly prohibited them from even token defensive posturing?
He'll they probably didn't have permission to swat flies if there was any possibility they were Iranian flies.
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Any bets that their ROE strictly prohibited them from even token defensive posturing?
No bet. That's pretty much a given.
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While I'm glad we got our sailors back, if commo or other sensitive gear was not destroyed, they all need court martial. At a minimum, folks need retraining on conduct while being a prisoner of a foreign country. I'm quite sure the ROE was essentially "don't fire under any circumstances".
John Kerry's apology is embarassing, but not a surprise there.
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This whole ordeal is embarrassing on so many levels that I'm not sure where to begin.
Issues I have is the amount of security breaches that have come out while Obama has been in office.
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From the photos, the most embarrassing part of the whole debacle is that they were captured by a little Boston Whaler knockoff.
Could be there was a larger boat sitting out of the frame.
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For the NCO's out there:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa199%2Fdogmush%2F11388_zpss4rsy1s6.png&hash=a7a2e13142dc1702ee1253b44dc501f71cf974f3) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/dogmush/media/11388_zpss4rsy1s6.png.html)
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Could be there was a larger boat sitting out of the frame.
At this point I'm going to go with Revdisk's Razor and they're going to have to prove it. :)
I'd be interested in the opinions of our mil boat guys here regarding a few of the comments at the hognose site. Specifically about the untrained / undisciplined crews for the current missions on these boats. The couple of comments about it there sounded like they were reasonable and from guys in the know, but it's the Internet, so I'd be interested in the opinions of trusted experts here.
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I'd be interested in the opinions of our mil boat guys here regarding a few of the comments at the hognose site. Specifically about the untrained / undisciplined crews for the current missions on these boats. The couple of comments about it there sounded like they were reasonable and from guys in the know, but it's the Internet, so I'd be interested in the opinions of trusted experts here.
There's not a whole lot I am going to say about the specific's on that blog. There's definitely some open pondering about issues of OPSEC, and current Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures used by our forces in the gulf. That's reasonably important to me, as I go there frequently. Here's what I will say, based on what I've personally seen and done in that AO, and near Farsi Island.
1. A breakdown is plausible. Stuff happens even to well maintained equipment. Why they were't towing is a question, but not automatically stupid.
2. Those are Riverine Patrol Boats. They regularly patrol and transit that area.
3. I keep seeing that the boats "dropped off the scopes". That is a media mistake, like automatic assault weapon. We (the US Navy) knows exactly where those boats were.
4. The Iranians are touchy and weird about their "Territorial waters", and do sometimes change them with no notice.
5. The US does not just put small craft out in the Persian Gulf willy nilly. The only thing that smells funny to me about this situation is lack of US support. I can get (if I need it) armed air support anywhere in the Persian Gulf, just for the asking, in minutes. I almost wonder if those boats had done something stupid (like run out of fuel) and were trying to keep it from the command, so that they didn't ask for help until it was too late. I also wonder if they, not thinking, said some stupid *expletive deleted*it in the clear, on VHF, that would have made them seem like easy targets.
6. It's not suspicious that the Iranians had a film crew. We routinly film them, and they us, at every opportunity.
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http://conservativetribune.com/defense-secretary-slips-up/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=TPNNPages&utm_content=2016-01-14&utm_campaign=manualpost
“I understand that (Secretary of State) John Kerry has indicated, look, when he got word, he and Ash Carter called the Iranians to help take care of our Navy guys, because they had some mechanical problems,” Gohmert said.
WTFF?!?!
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Apparently the Iranians kept the GPS/nav equipment, but the US quoted source said it was no big deal,
Of course; the unnamed spokesman isn't paying for the gear.
IMO, the real question brass should be asking is "does the nav gear cost more than a frickin' tow line?"
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http://conservativetribune.com/defense-secretary-slips-up/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=TPNNPages&utm_content=2016-01-14&utm_campaign=manualpost
“I understand that (Secretary of State) John Kerry has indicated, look, when he got word, he and Ash Carter called the Iranians to help take care of our Navy guys, because they had some mechanical problems,” Gohmert said.
WTFF?!?!
That did not happen.
Even if engine troubles were a CCIR (Commander's Critical Information Requirement. Basically a list of *expletive deleted*it you wake the boss up for) at the SECDEF level, unless he and the Iranians are Facebook friends Sec Carter isn't getting in touch with the Iranian Navy before 5th Fleet has those guys back. We'd sortie a *expletive deleted*ing Blackhawk from Arifjan and scuttle the boats before we called for help like that.
Prediction: Someone in DC, who doesn't know how *expletive deleted*it works, decided to tey to spin this. "Der! It wouldn't have been an embarrassment if we asked for their assistance. Der! Let's make that the story....unless there's a Youtube Vid......No, OK we asked for help then." and they put that out before asking anyone if it was possible, plausible, or a good idea.
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IIRC, I thought I recently read something where for the first time in a metric buttload of years, we don't have a carrier in Gulf.
Also the Iranians get it that Obama and Kerry are weak tea, and not stand up to any provocation. I'd bet this was a test.
A couple of other things relating to our side:
Was no one monitoring where these boats were ? And then getting on the horn saying "Hey guys, it looks like you've stopped moving and are drifting dangerously close to Iranian Terrtorial Waters, do you need some help?" "Hey, heads up guys, looks like there's some Iranian boats headed your way."
I would guess that these boats operate in twos for mutual support. Just in case something like this happens. Wouldn't an early step of breakdown procedures be "Notify Higher and Request Help." And there isn't a way for one to tow the other if need be. And yes, Military things break often at the worst time and in groups. I would think that Step 1 of "Both Boats Break" would be "Fire off an SOS to Higher RFN."
I'd really want to read the AAR of this incident, because it sounds like a flustercluck all up and down the CoC. (The one I go and beat you with to show who's in ruttin' command.)
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That did not happen.
Even if engine troubles were a CCIR (Commander's Critical Information Requirement. Basically a list of *expletive deleted*it you wake the boss up for) at the SECDEF level, unless he and the Iranians are Facebook friends Sec Carter isn't getting in touch with the Iranian Navy before 5th Fleet has those guys back. We'd sortie a *expletive deleted*ing Blackhawk from Arifjan and scuttle the boats before we called for help like that.
Prediction: Someone in DC, who doesn't know how *expletive deleted*it works, decided to tey to spin this. "Der! It wouldn't have been an embarrassment if we asked for their assistance. Der! Let's make that the story....unless there's a Youtube Vid......No, OK we asked for help then." and they put that out before asking anyone if it was possible, plausible, or a good idea.
I would agree some polcritter tried to spin this and CYA and it didn't work out.
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IIRC, I thought I recently read something where for the first time in a metric buttload of years, we don't have a carrier in Gulf.
Also the Iranians get it that Obama and Kerry are weak tea, and not stand up to any provocation. I'd bet this was a test.
A couple of other things relating to our side:
Was no one monitoring where these boats were ? And then getting on the horn saying "Hey guys, it looks like you've stopped moving and are drifting dangerously close to Iranian Terrtorial Waters, do you need some help?" "Hey, heads up guys, looks like there's some Iranian boats headed your way."
I would guess that these boats operate in twos for mutual support. Just in case something like this happens. Wouldn't an early step of breakdown procedures be "Notify Higher and Request Help." And there isn't a way for one to tow the other if need be. And yes, Military things break often at the worst time and in groups. I would think that Step 1 of "Both Boats Break" would be "Fire off an SOS to Higher RFN."
I'd really want to read the AAR of this incident, because it sounds like a flustercluck all up and down the CoC. (The one I go and beat you with to show who's in ruttin' command.)
If Clinton still was Sec of State it would already be on her server.
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Maybe we could get Rev to work his Eastern European contacts and get us a copy of all of Clintons e-mails... I would be that Putin has seen them all...
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http://conservativetribune.com/defense-secretary-slips-up/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=TPNNPages&utm_content=2016-01-14&utm_campaign=manualpost
“I understand that (Secretary of State) John Kerry has indicated, look, when he got word, he and Ash Carter called the Iranians to help take care of our Navy guys, because they had some mechanical problems,” Gohmert said.
As Dogmush said, there is no way in HELL this happened. IF this is the unofficial/official line from State, then it's yet another case of the Obama administration pathologically lying where none is needed.
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IIRC, I thought I recently read something where for the first time in a metric buttload of years, we don't have a carrier in Gulf.
A couple of other things relating to our side:
Was no one monitoring where these boats were ? And then getting on the horn saying "Hey guys, it looks like you've stopped moving and are drifting dangerously close to Iranian Terrtorial Waters, do you need some help?" "Hey, heads up guys, looks like there's some Iranian boats headed your way."
I would guess that these boats operate in twos for mutual support. Just in case something like this happens. Wouldn't an early step of breakdown procedures be "Notify Higher and Request Help." And there isn't a way for one to tow the other if need be. And yes, Military things break often at the worst time and in groups. I would think that Step 1 of "Both Boats Break" would be "Fire off an SOS to Higher RFN."
I'd really want to read the AAR of this incident, because it sounds like a flustercluck all up and down the CoC. (The one I go and beat you with to show who's in ruttin' command.)
Truman's in the gulf.
The US routinely monitors all traffic in the gulf, as well as position of all US Military craft underway. We also maintain voice coms with all US Military vessels transiting in the gulf.
It's likely that SOP is indeed to tell either 5th Fleet, or Task Force 75 (the CVN's Group) as soon as you are disabled.
Admitting your boat is disabled is likely a bad career move in the USN, If one thought they could get it making way quickly SOP's have been stretched in the past.
US Military craft routinely pass (or did as of last week) within a handful of nautical miles of water the Iranians claim.
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US Military craft routinely pass (or did as of last week) within a handful of nautical miles of water the Iranians claim.
Yes, but how many minutes' drift? If they really thought they could get it restarted, there should have been a point in there somewhere when they realized that wasn't going to happen. The fact that they not only drifted into territorial waters but apparently also ran aground while adrift screams that something was going badly wrong. I'd think even without any sort of bumpers, nudging the disabled boat would be seen as better than grounding.
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I have seen no credible report that they ran aground. The reports from sources I trust all say they were intercepted at sea. The video of them on board the boats would support that as well.
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So Ash Carter says not a mechanical issue, but navigational error.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/01/14/carter-says-navigation-error-not-mechanical-problem-put-us-boats-in-iranian-waters.html?intcmp=hpbt2
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I'll go for the Matt Bracken supposition that the boats were in international waters and the Iranians went and got them anyway just to be a thumb in the eye. The timing with SOTU coming is just too damn good.
I am pretty embarrassed to be in the Navy today. The conduct of the crew was awful. White sock jokes aside, you know you are being filmed. You know the world will see this. So act appropriately, keep your uniform all the way on, don't chow down like you are at a picnic on an MWR tour while your female shipmate sits in the back in a hijab, don't give videoed statements that give aid and comfort to the enemy, etc. WTF?
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And also tired of the internet specwar who are mad at the crew for surrendering, not fighting back, going down with the ship etc. I have seen the Iranian Navy very up close. They do provocative crap because they want to get shot and start an international incident. One of our seahawks practically landed on the back of an iranian frigate because the pilot was trying to harass the ship away from home plate. Pilot got in trouble with our CO for being provocative. Watched missile boats putter along right between a CVN and a CG. They do things daily to get a rise out of us. We do not shoot back.
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I'll go for the Matt Bracken supposition that the boats were in international waters and the Iranians went and got them anyway just to be a thumb in the eye. The timing with SOTU coming is just too damn good.
I am pretty embarrassed to be in the Navy today. The conduct of the crew was awful. White sock jokes aside, you know you are being filmed. You know the world will see this. So act appropriately, keep your uniform all the way on, don't chow down like you are at a picnic on an MWR tour while your female shipmate sits in the back in a hijab, don't give videoed statements that give aid and comfort to the enemy, etc. WTF?
five will get you ten that they face harsher reprimands than Bergdhal
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So Ash Carter says not a mechanical issue, but navigational error.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/01/14/carter-says-navigation-error-not-mechanical-problem-put-us-boats-in-iranian-waters.html?intcmp=hpbt2
I don't know, they were going from one country to another that both lie on the western side of the gulf. These are fairly shallow water boats, you put the shore on your starboard side about 1-2 miles away and stay there until you get to where you are going. The more stories I hear about this the more stink it produces. My 2 cents.
bob
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The timing with SOTU coming is just too damn good.
This. Especially when they release them the morning after the SOTU. If it wasn't about that they would have kept them longer...not like this administration is going to keep it's pimp hand strong should something happen like that...and it would be damn fitting for the Iranians to drag out a lengthy incident considering Obama is Jimmy Carter X.
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I don't know, they were going from one country to another that both lie on the western side of the gulf. These are fairly shallow water boats, you put the shore on your starboard side about 1-2 miles away and stay there until you get to where you are going.
bob
That's not an option.
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^^^^^
I am curious why it is not an option. Place land off the starboard side on transit, watch the charts and depth gauge for shoal water. Farsi Island is in the middle of the gulf, anywhere from 50 or so miles to 75 miles from the western side of the gulf. I am not sure how coastal boats doing a straight forward re-position got out that far, unless Iran was flexing it muscles and enforcing waters as theirs that may be disputed.
bob
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http://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=62032 (http://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=62032)
Online chart is zoomable and scrollable.
Winds, tides, currents, obstructions, restricted areas all play a major roll in marine navigation.
Looks like that piece of water would be a big ole bowl of suck to transit through.
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Looks like that piece of water would be a big ole bowl of suck to transit through.
In a submarine. It shouldn't be all that difficult in a glorified bass boat.
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In a submarine. It shouldn't be all that difficult in a glorified bass boat.
;/
It would be a lot easier if you didn't have Iran looking to grab any unattended smaller craft to liven up the day...no amount of maritime skills in the world is gonna help you when that happens.
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BobR, course tracks for any military vessel in the Gulf have to be approved by Fifth Fleet. There are several factors that go into course planning in that body of water, not all of which are public. But what you described is not an option for those guys.
Of the public reasons, that would take them through Saudi waters, and the Saudi ' s don't like our vessels in there waters, and in general it's supremely bad OPSEC to transit within sight of land.
ETA: Anecdotally, Fifth Fleet micromanages navigation so bad, I have had them tell me I need to move a course leg as little as 2 miles. They don't always tell me why, either.
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^^^
Thanks. I wondered if the Saudi's were like that. When we flew out of there in 89 they were very particular about where we entered and exited their airspace, even if we were scooting for cover behind the Hawk batteries in Saudi because Iran launched some fighters. So, I guess if both counties claimed a 25 mile limit (which some do) it would not be a stretch to stay out of claimed Saudi waters and slide into claimed Iranian waters.
thanks again
unrelated question; Are you on a LCV or LCU? And if I recall you are the skipper (Craft Master?).
bob
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unless Iran was flexing it muscles and enforcing waters as theirs that may be disputed.
IMO, way back when all these rules were being established, there should have been one more; if you get dickish about your maritime boundaries, then they shall be adjusted to an easier one to keep track of; the mainland high tide mark.
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Major drift alert...
The sad and sorry fact is, we are not able to know what the facts are, based on the utterances of our .mil or .gov officials. We (rightfully, it seems) discard what they say occurred, and try to develop our own Intel. Same thing with the Benghazi attack.
This is sad and dangerous. One day, the public, or a subset, is going to have to make literal "life or death" decisions, based on what they've been told. The first thing they will have to do is assay it for bullpoop content.
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The sad and sorry fact is, we are not able to know what the facts are, based on the utterances of our .mil or .gov officials. We (rightfully, it seems) discard what they say occurred, and try to develop our own Intel. Same thing with the Benghazi attack.
Yeah, it was probably a couple of destroyers captured in Lithuanian waters.
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It is sad, so far we have heard
1. Mechanical failure
2. Communication failure
and
3. Navigation error.
This is another instance where even if the truth comes out no one will believe it because of all of the past falsehoods given.
bob
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It is sad, so far we have heard
1. Mechanical failure
2. Communication failure
3. Navigation error.
I heard the C5 pilot that was carrying the boats stopped for a beer at NAS Dallas and they were captured by MS13.
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Major drift alert...
The sad and sorry fact is, we are not able to know what the facts are, based on the utterances of our .mil or .gov officials. We (rightfully, it seems) discard what they say occurred, and try to develop our own Intel. Same thing with the Benghazi attack.
This is sad and dangerous. One day, the public, or a subset, is going to have to make literal "life or death" decisions, based on what they've been told. The first thing they will have to do is assay it for bullpoop content.
Spot on my friend. Spot. On.
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unrelated question; Are you on a LCV or LCU? And if I recall you are the skipper (Craft Master?).
LCU, and in school to get that cert right now. Will be the Vessel Master the next time I pass Farsi Island. (I will be about 16 miles out. Because I can navigate.)
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LCU, and in school to get that cert right now. Will be the Vessel Master the next time I pass Farsi Island. (I will be about 16 miles out. Because I can navigate.)
What's the difference? Are LCVs just LC dedicated to vehicles?
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What's the difference? Are LCVs just LC dedicated to vehicles?
The acronym is actually LSV, for Logistics Support Vessel, vs, Landing Craft, Utility.
An LSV is 100(ish) feet longer, carries double the crew, displaces 3100 tons more, and routinely does ocean crossings. LCU's tend to be used more for intratheatre lift missions.
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Gotchya, thanks!
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It is sad, so far we have heard
1. Mechanical failure
2. Communication failure
and
3. Navigation error.
This is another instance where even if the truth comes out no one will believe it because of all of the past falsehoods given.
That means we're closing in on the truth. We can be fairly well assured that it's NOT what the government tells us, so the more stories they spin, the more theories we can eliminate. Considering our government's history of using Naval encounters as pretexts for various and sundry purposes (anyone remember the Bay of Tonkin?), it's not difficult to accept that it may have all been part of somebody's plan.
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WARNING: Intra-service smack talk ahead.
Sooooo. I have actually trained with that Riverine squadron. also the one on the east coast. Those guys (the coxswains of small craft) are barely competent sailors. By doctrine, they are supposed to provide security for US Army Logistics Over the Shore operations. We plan on doing that ourselves, because in the Chesapeake Bay it's 50/50 they will get there on time. I 100% believe that navy officer that was violating the Code of Conduct: Those tool's got lost, and were picked up by the Iranian's before they could figure it out. It's not a conspiracy, it's lowest common denominator boat handling. We (the Army) normally know our position to within .5 NM or so. We train, and routinely use, GPS, RDF, visual, and celestial navigation. My experience with small (read less than 300 or so ft) Navy boats, is that if it isn't on their commercial grade chartplotter, they don't know it.
Hell they couldn't even be bothered to get their uniforms on before being captured.
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I'll conditionally* agree with that.
And, I'll add that any lack of competence, training and proper navigation equipment is a direct reflection on the leadership, from the top down.
*Pending any real explanation of the events. :rofl:
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WARNING: Intra-service smack talk ahead.
Sooooo. I have actually trained with that Riverine squadron. also the one on the east coast. Those guys (the coxswains of small craft) are barely competent sailors. By doctrine, they are supposed to provide security for US Army Logistics Over the Shore operations. We plan on doing that ourselves, because in the Chesapeake Bay it's 50/50 they will get there on time. I 100% believe that navy officer that was violating the Code of Conduct: Those tool's got lost, and were picked up by the Iranian's before they could figure it out. It's not a conspiracy, it's lowest common denominator boat handling. We (the Army) normally know our position to within .5 NM or so. We train, and routinely use, GPS, RDF, visual, and celestial navigation. My experience with small (read less than 300 or so ft) Navy boats, is that if it isn't on their commercial grade chartplotter, they don't know it.
Hell they couldn't even be bothered to get their uniforms on before being captured.
Larry's a sailor (of sailboats, not talking submarines here) so he'll probably understand this.
When I was still in high school, my uncle's boss owned a gorgeous, wood, German-made 40-foot yawl that he sailed out of a private yacht club located on Long Island Sound (that puddle between Connecticut and New York). The old man was getting too old to handle the boat himself, and his wife was too old to help, so he hired my cousin as crew for a couple of years. When my cousin moved on to bigger and better (paying) things, I was offered the job. Hmmm ... a chance to sail on the most beautiful boat I had ever seen, AND get paid for it? Yeah, I really struggled with that decision.
If you want to fire up Google maps, look up Stonington, Connecticut. We overnighted in Stonington on one jaunt, and the next morning we set off for Block Island. It was a good day, with a fair breeze, and the sail should have taken us (IIRC) a couple of hours. We sailed, and we sailed ... and we sailed, and we sailed some more ... and we weren't seeing any land. Skipper's wife had made the trip enough times that she knew we should'a been there by now. Finally, she gave me a hand signal to come down into the main cabin. She told me in no uncertain terms that she was sure her husband had messed up his navigating, and she asked me to figure out where we were, and how to get where we were going.
Back then, we didn't have GPS. Loran had been invented, but sailboats our size didn't use it. Basically, we had charts, a tide chart, a compass, and our heads. I knew what course the skipper had been steering, so I dug out the chart and the tide table, laid out a course and an estimated speed -- and I calculated that we were just over the horizon and due west from where we wanted to be, and if we kept going for about ten days we should be in Barcelona. So I worked out a new course, went back topsides and gave it to the missus, and she told her husband to make a left turn and steer the course I had worked out. He protested that he knew how to navigate, and we just needed to sail a bit longer. She told him to turn left.
We turned left, and we made harbor in about 45 minutes. (Yes, I know ... "port," not "left.")
Another time I made it the full length of Fisher's Island Sound (you'll find it just outside of Stonington Harbor) in a pea soup fog, dead reckoning from one buoy to the next.
The point being that navigation isn't all that difficult, IF you pay attention to what you're doing. With GPS, there's really no excuse for getting so lost you stray into enemy territory.
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I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the level of incompetence needed for this to have gone down the way we've been told.
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I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the level of incompetence needed for this to have gone down the way we've been told.
Maybe the part we haven't heard is that it was really Kerry taking Obama on a little boat trip.
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I heard/seen a report that one of them may have run out of fuel. :facepalm:
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That transit is right on the edge of their range. Depending on which route they took it could actually require refueling. Put that off too long and your drifting while someone bleeds a fuel system.
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Intel for Iran.
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/01/19/centcom-sim-cards-removed-from-two-satellite-phones-before-iran-returned-two-u-s-navy-boats/
“A post-recovery inventory of the boats found that all weapons, ammunition and communication gear are accounted for minus two SIM cards that appear to have been removed from two handheld satellite phones,” reports CENTCOM.
I do not understand why they where allowed to be captured. Unless those where the sim cards they where saposed to get.
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I do not understand why they where allowed to be captured. Unless those where the sim cards they where saposed to get.
Yeah; now the Iranians are going to clone the SIM cards and call all their buddies on our dime.
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I can see some comm gear onboard is throwdown - intended for normal use until capture. Whereas the comm gear on other platforms more appropriately loaded with self destruct charges / adhoc scuttling with small arms fire.
Standard HDD platters will shatter like glass. Encryption engine/sub cards would require incineration.
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Standard HDD platters will shatter like glass. Encryption engine/sub cards would require incineration.
This goes back to the size of the actual guts of memory devices; you can put a heck of a lot of encryption software on a device the size of a pinhead. Overvoltage into the device itself, plus a few turns of nichrome wire around it, and you'd be able to reduce the whole thing to slag with a 9V battery. Something to crush the charred remains ($2 pliers from WalMart) and scatter them off the side of the boat (hold the pliers over the water, and drop them after the crunch) should pretty well eliminate any chance of recovery.
If you wanted to go really automated, you have the "burn" button light up the device in place, then a spring loaded piston to crush it. A fan or vibratory rig to sling the bits around afterward may not get them outside the equipment casing, but even if reconstruction was possible at that point, you should be making it take long enough that you can render any information they get obsolete before they get it.
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Seriously?
The US Military is not the IMF. Messages don't burn themselves when you read them, and COMSEC security does not involve pliers, scuttling charges, or small arms fire.
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The US Military is not the IMF. Messages don't burn themselves when you read them, and COMSEC security does not involve pliers, scuttling charges, or small arms fire.
When you're the only organization in a country with the specific mission of blowing a bunch of *expletive deleted*it up for the greater good, ignoring opportunities to blow *expletive deleted*it up for a really good reason is just wasteful.
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Seriously?
The US Military is not the IMF. Messages don't burn themselves when you read them, and COMSEC security does not involve pliers, scuttling charges, or small arms fire.
???
Wut?
I was US Army commo. All of those things were regular things we discussed. ANCDs had a removable crypto plug that could be crushed by pliers, boot or rifle butt. We trained everyone on them, plus the normal zero'ing. We had thermite grenades for destroying sensitive material, like the crypto vault or JWICS terminal (this was overseas). And there were specific rules for destroying S level hard drives. Tis how I got the Army to buy me a nice blow torch, it was in one of the manuals as accepted field decommissioning of hard drives. We didn't have hard drive shredders in theater.
We don't always burn messages, we did cross cut shred them. In the old days, yeah, they did specifically burn shredded documents. Now it's grey fuzzy dust. Which is usually burned if it was TS grey fuzzy dust.
We did train 2LT's and NCOs to burn old SOI's.
A line unit might not need or do that stuff. I assure you at the G or J level, we sure as hell did.
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Yeah, until it goes off by accident... Just deep sixing and COMSEC stuff would be sufficient.
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I'm curious that in all these latest "inventory of returned items" articles, the "confiscated" GPS units have not been mentioned. I'll defer to Dogmush, but all the gov small boats I was ever on had console mounted units similar to civilian Furunos - some the same as you can buy at the local boat store, and some with more stuff inside.
I wonder if that is what the Iraqis took, if they took anything, or if maybe they took some handheld GPS that was laying around in the cabin and used as a backup or whatever. Or maybe the boats were also carrying whatever the current version of a PLGR is?
The non-return might not be a big deal if all the Iraqis can pull from them is a boring port to port transit. I would guess there is some procedure for scheduled wipe of track history in the nav systems.
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Yeah, until it goes off by accident...
Implemented right, worst case, you're stuck with code words on clear channels. Nobody's talking about blowing up the more-or-less-same-as-commercial transceiver, just the special bits that slot into it to make it special.
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I didn't get trained in RevDisk's methods. But we were trained how to destroy commo gear, safes, & whatnot with demo. That was fun. "Do NOT put hte charge under the equipment. You'll likely just send it flying into the air. Put the charge on top, where it will smash it into the ground."
My favorite ranges ever were demo ranges.
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GPS Side, we have actual civilian models, either Garmins, Furunos, or Liecas. Then we also have DAGR's which are the new, improved PLGRs. They are purpose built military only GPS's. I would imagine the Riverine Command Boats run a similar set up: Commercial marine chart plotters for navigation and the DAGR's hooked up to the tactical systems(Blue force Tracker, MTS, stuff like that.)
The tactical sat coms I've used don't have SIM cards. (or at least not removable ones) I've been issued some commercial Sat Phones that did, for unsecure coms back to shore. They tend to either be INMARSAT or Iridium phones. It's likely the missing SIM cards were from units like this. The Iranians probably have a good list of which commercial numbers go to which units in the Gulf now. I'd assume we are changing those phones out.
Rev, SOP's have changed. We don't use ANCD's anymore. We also do very little (if any at all) classified stuff on paper, at least below BDE level. That saves us from having to shred and burn. I don't think it's breaking any opsec to assure the internet that the comsec security plan on a 50ft, aluminium boat, doesn't involve thermite. Ever seen Alien?
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I didn't get trained in RevDisk's methods. But we were trained how to destroy commo gear, safes, & whatnot with demo. That was fun. "Do NOT put hte charge under the equipment. You'll likely just send it flying into the air. Put the charge on top, where it will smash it into the ground."
I did not know this and I like to learn something every day. I wonder if this would apply to nasty patients as well.
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"Do NOT put hte charge under the equipment. You'll likely just send it flying into the air. Put the charge on top, where it will smash it into the ground."
But you know why we don't do that on boats, right?
I did not know this and I like to learn something every day. I wonder if this would apply to nasty patients as well.
It would. But sometimes it's good for the soul to see them fly through the air.
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We just had the KY 57's, 58's and 68's. I had the KYK13 since I was the Commo officer. In case of capture, simply zero it out and spin the knobs on the radios.
CEOI's/SOI were another matter entirely. "Destroy by burning."
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But you know why we don't do that on boats, right?
Ground is too far away? Hard to run far enough before the boom?
Seems a pair of charges detonated together would do the job. Might be hard on the hull, though.
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I did not know this and I like to learn something every day. I wonder if this would apply to nasty patients as well.
That's why they make K-Y.
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I'm curious that in all these latest "inventory of returned items" articles, the "confiscated" GPS units have not been mentioned. I'll defer to Dogmush, but all the gov small boats I was ever on had console mounted units similar to civilian Furunos - some the same as you can buy at the local boat store, and some with more stuff inside.
I wonder if that is what the Iraqis took, if they took anything, or if maybe they took some handheld GPS that was laying around in the cabin and used as a backup or whatever. Or maybe the boats were also carrying whatever the current version of a PLGR is?
The non-return might not be a big deal if all the Iraqis can pull from them is a boring port to port transit. I would guess there is some procedure for scheduled wipe of track history in the nav systems.
You can get quite a bit of info out of a Furuno SINS, even if tracks and marks have been erased. But it was the NTSB digging that info out, I doubt the Iranians have that level of skills. I don't know what kind of electronics the RCB carried but the patrol craft the SWCC's and riverine guys used, that I saw, had really basic commercial nav systems.
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You can get quite a bit of info out of a Furuno SINS, even if tracks and marks have been erased. But it was the NTSB digging that info out, I doubt the Iranians have that level of skills. I don't know what kind of electronics the RCB carried but the patrol craft the SWCC's and riverine guys used, that I saw, had really basic commercial nav systems.
Is SINS a USCG thing? I've pulled data from Furuno chartplotters before for you guys. Wasn't one of yours, I was helping an MSD buddy on an accident investigation of civilian vessels. That was like fifteen years ago though, and back then you could do a lot with just an RS232 cable and a laptop. I've already been gone too long to know what the cutting edge tech is anymore. :(
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SINS isn't really cutting edge in itself. The equipment has been around for 40+ years. Of course the tech has improved and the size has gotten smaller.
Subs have been using it for a long time in various forms.
To target a ballistic missile you have to have a pretty good idea of where you are when you launch.
I saw and worked with several iterations while I was on subs, SINS, DMINS, ESGN... all just fancy, really, really accurate dead reckoning machines.
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Today it's really just destroy any crypto you have - defined as keys.
Burn/shred/destroy any books, tapes, or other media. For the boats, if you can't do anything else, at least toss them overboard, preferably in a weighted net bag or something(toss something heavy in there!) so that they don't pop up immediately.
As navy guys should be able to tell you, in any depth of water finding such a thing is a huge pain in the butt, even if they 'know' where it was dropped.
Zero any key storage devices such as the CYZ or SKL . Zero any KGs and other commo units with active keys in them. Remove the keys and toss them (overboard). If you have time, break them, but don't worry overmuch.
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Is SINS a USCG thing? I've pulled data from Furuno chartplotters before for you guys. Wasn't one of yours, I was helping an MSD buddy on an accident investigation of civilian vessels. That was like fifteen years ago though, and back then you could do a lot with just an RS232 cable and a laptop. I've already been gone too long to know what the cutting edge tech is anymore. :(
No, SINS was available commercially too. I'm pretty sure Furuno calls it Nav/Net, at least now.
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(toss something heavy in there!)
But what if the chief could swim and they didn't have time to tie him up?
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But you know why we don't do that on boats, right?
No. Why?
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No. Why?
Enough plastic explosive to destroy commo gear detonating on a boat is bad for bouyancy.
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Enough plastic explosive to destroy commo gear detonating on a boat is bad for bouyancy.
Which is why you use a proximity detonator so it only goes off when it gets, say, 1.5 keel lengths away from your boat.
Or you just don't go for overkill; again, the really sooper sekrit stuff can be (and usually is) made almost ridiculously small. An explosion that would render it useless could be fully contained in a beer keg.
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No you just design and build it in a way that it can be rendered inert without explosives, molten metal or small arms fire.
Enough plastic explosive to destroy commo gear detonating on a boat is bad for bouyancy.
Ding. You don't want to set off any explosives on your boat.
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Napalm gotta be napalm. :old: [ar15]
And no don't try that. [tinfoil]
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No you just design and build it in a way that it can be rendered inert without explosives, molten metal or small arms fire.
Ding. You don't want to set off any explosives on your boat.
We had a passel of crypto crap to crunch in the shack on the boat and explosives were not involved. Explosions of any sort inside a submarine are generally to be avoided.
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Thread necro.
As the news story is likely messing stuff up, I'm curious on one item in this report that maybe the BTDT guys could answer:
Second, the chain of command was not well defined on the two boats. While a young lieutenant was the highest-ranking individual on either of the two 50-foot boats, when the order was given to evade the Iranian forces, the helmsman refused the order.
Is that out of the ordinary, or are there circumstances where it would be common for a helmsman to refuse the order of the boat's CO (safety, hazards to navigation perhaps)? The LT is the guy who did the apology on tape, but if the story is accurate, it looks like before he made that mistake, maybe he was actually trying to do something right.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/23/navy-commodore-to-be-relieved-command-over-irans-capture-his-sailors.html?intcmp=hpbt3
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I never saw the video, but was the crying obviously due to stress? Or could it have been induced with chemicals?
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Dunno.. The Iranians might have access to "onion technology". ???
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Thread necro.
As the news story is likely messing stuff up, I'm curious on one item in this report that maybe the BTDT guys could answer:
Is that out of the ordinary, or are there circumstances where it would be common for a helmsman to refuse the order of the boat's CO (safety, hazards to navigation perhaps)? The LT is the guy who did the apology on tape, but if the story is accurate, it looks like before he made that mistake, maybe he was actually trying to do something right.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/23/navy-commodore-to-be-relieved-command-over-irans-capture-his-sailors.html?intcmp=hpbt3
Let me preface this by saying I got out of the Navy in 1998 so my information is dated. The LT had to have been the boat officer for one of those boats. I don't understand why there wasn't a second boat officer for the second boat. The boat officer is in charge. Maybe that is what they are talking about with respect to the chain of command.
In 20 plus years of driving Coast Guard small boats I have never seen one of the crew ignore the coxswains (coxswains are in charge of a CG boat no matter who is onboard, even if it is an admiral, and coxswains are responsible for the conduct and safety of crew and passengers) commands or directions. Generally speaking when the sh*t is about to hit the fan the coxswain has gotten on the wheel and is driving.
It has been a few years since I've had to do anything with the Navy but when I did I was pretty unimpressed with their boat driving and their boat officers in general.
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/23/navy-commodore-to-be-relieved-command-over-irans-capture-his-sailors.html?intcmp=hpbt3
I didn't think we used commodores anymore.
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It's a title, not a rank. He commands multiple smaller independent units.
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/report-us-sailors-ill-prepared-iran-encounter-gulf-135016699--politics.html
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/30/politics/iran-navy-capture-investigation-report/
I saw these links today and figured I would post them here. Sounds like laziness and complacency at multiple levels.