The economy of Germany today compared to the USA a while back

[MillCreek]

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-germany-middle-class-20120122,0,3874773.story?track=icymi

An interesting article drawing parallels between the economy of Germany today, and the USA some decades back, when we made our living by manufacturing and exporting tangible goods.

[Monkeyleg]

I'm not going to say the article is wrong, but I'd just like to remind people of what was said about Japan in the 1980's, Europe as a whole in the 1990's, China today, and plenty of countries who were more favorably compared to the US at one time or another.  There's always been an inclination to finally count the US as out, a practice going back at least a century. We were told that the Soviet system was superior to ours, that the Nazi system was superior, and so on.

Each time, the US came roaring back while the acclaimed country de jour stumbled.

It's looking bad for us right now, but it can still be turned around.

[TommyGunn]

Well, we might "come back" but it depends.........
We have a 15.3 trillion dollar debt which is increasing at rates waaaaaaaaaaaay above my paygrade and apparantly will continue to do so.  They say all debts come due sometime.  There is a real possibility, despite the claims of some Polly Annas, that we could default on the debt.
That could be a disaster.
But it's not the only SHTF thing that could happen.
I am not particularly optimistic insofar as America's future is concerned right now.  IMHO we're in some deep kimsche and none of our leaders are taking the matter seriously enough.  The tea partyers do, I guess, but even the repukes they managed to send to DC have  absorbed by the Borg.

[Monkeyleg]

Oh, I know, TommyGunn. I'm just trying to stay a little optimistic. We've never carried this amount of debt before. But I have heard the laments of "the US is over as  ____ (insert superpower, world's largest economy, world's major manufacturer, etc)" before.

I wish someone would lay out particulars as to what it would take to turn this around, how long it would take, and how much of a hit we'd each have to take.

[longeyes]

Let's not look at the cultural and demographic differences between Germany and America.  Might be too scary or too un-PC.  Germany is German.  For starters.

[TommyGunn]

Oh, I know, TommyGunn. I'm just trying to stay a little optimistic. We've never carried this amount of debt before. But I have heard the laments of "the US is over as  ____ (insert superpower, world's largest economy, world's major manufacturer, etc)" before..........

I have heard that as well.  Just remember, "the boy who cried wolf" ;  the last time, there really was a wolf.....

[roo_ster]

Let's not look at the cultural and demographic differences between Germany and America.  Might be too scary or too un-PC.  Germany is German.  For starters.

<fingers_in_ears>La la la la, I can't hear you!</fingers_in_ears>

How 'Bout them Differences?

[Waitone]

According to someone named Smith who is purported to know something about what we call capitalism, there exists 3 ways to create wealth:  make something which others will value, dig something out of the ground which others will value, and grow something out of the ground which others will value.  What makes our position so tenuous is we are rapidly dismantling all three ways of creating wealth.  Evidently Chermany hasn't gone full Monty in the same direction.  In particular their manufacturing sector is quite healthy compared to other countries in EU-land.  And they've figgered out it is really a smart idea to make stuff and then export it to other countries.

It is just breathtaking how stupid the US has become.

[longeyes]

We've been too busy paying their defense bills and importing illegal aliens and addicting our population to every form of escapism known to mankind.  The good news is they've got Muslim problems, just like the rest of Europe.

We started with the Marshall Plan and have ended with the Martial Plan.  That's the Never-Ending War that purports to be fighting "terrorism" while it is really a war against the American culture and The Individual.

[MillCreek]

Back in the early to mid-90's, my wife was in Germany for five years with her husband at that time. He was a 0-3/0-4 in military intelligence and did two back to back tours. She recalls that back then, Germany was pretty wound up about immigrants from Turkey, both legal and illegal and there were endless debates in the German press about what to do.

[Perd Hapley]

She recalls that back then, Germany was pretty wound up about immigrants from Turkey, both legal and illegal and there were endless debates in the German press about what to do.

From what I hear, Europe still hasn't figured out what to do.

[MicroBalrog]

Olaf Gersemann's Cowboy Capitalism is a good start on why the American economy is actually more dynamic than that of Germany.

[makattak]

According to someone named Smith who is purported to know something about what we call capitalism, there exists 3 ways to create wealth:  make something which others will value, dig something out of the ground which others will value, and grow something out of the ground which others will value.  What makes our position so tenuous is we are rapidly dismantling all three ways of creating wealth.  Evidently Chermany hasn't gone full Monty in the same direction.  In particular their manufacturing sector is quite healthy compared to other countries in EU-land.  And they've figgered out it is really a smart idea to make stuff and then export it to other countries.

It is just breathtaking how stupid the US has become.

We grow more food than we ever have before.

We make more goods that we ever have before. (Prior to the recession.)

I don't know mining, but I'd bet we do more of that too. (We are producing a LOT of oil, despite the fact Obama has cut off many of the sources.)

We do all of that with fewer people than ever, too. That means people are free to do other valued things, like services or software or _____. I leave that blank because I don't know what people may discover/invent/create. I just know history and the ingenuity of human nature.

Of course if the government decides that we need to keep lower paying, lower valued jobs in the country and forces people to deal with less value for their purchase, we will probably not invent/discover/create many new things. (I'm talking about tariffs and other barriers to trade.)

[MicroBalrog]

We do all of that with fewer people than ever, too. That means people are free to do other valued things, like services or software or _____. I leave that blank because I don't know what people may discover/invent/create. I just know history and the ingenuity of human nature.

This. From an economic standpoint, there's only one economic measure of the value of labor or goods - what other people are willing to pay for it.

There's utterly no need to be creating physical goods to make money. The labor of, say, tech supporters, editors, and copywriters is quite as valuable, economically - say what you will of the moral value of hard work - as the labor of people who make physical objects.

[Perd Hapley]

I don't know mining, but I'd bet we do more of that too.

I don't know mining, either, but the sheer scale of the coal mining in the Powder River Valley, and the vast tonnage that's constantly moving around the country on unit trains over a mile long - it's impressive.

[longeyes]

This. From an economic standpoint, there's only one economic measure of the value of labor or goods - what other people are willing to pay for it.

There's utterly no need to be creating physical goods to make money. The labor of, say, tech supporters, editors, and copywriters is quite as valuable, economically - say what you will of the moral value of hard work - as the labor of people who make physical objects.
[/quote

Absolutely correct.  The problem is that in a nation of steadily declining IQ you are going to have problems employing everyone of working age as "tech supporters, editors, and copywriters."  The plan appears to be create a huge proletarian mass that depends on the State and votes Democratic (same thing: the "government party").

[longeyes]

We grow more food than we ever have before.

We make more goods that we ever have before. (Prior to the recession.)

I don't know mining, but I'd bet we do more of that too. (We are producing a LOT of oil, despite the fact Obama has cut off many of the sources.)

We do all of that with fewer people than ever, too. That means people are free to do other valued things, like services or software or _____. I leave that blank because I don't know what people may discover/invent/create. I just know history and the ingenuity of human nature.

Of course if the government decides that we need to keep lower paying, lower valued jobs in the country and forces people to deal with less value for their purchase, we will probably not invent/discover/create many new things. (I'm talking about tariffs and other barriers to trade.)

Yes, the smart and valiant Ten Per Cent are carrying the load.  Problem is, they are getting tired and becoming deliberately dispirited by hostile policies.  We are burning through our cultural capital at a very fast rate.  Take a sober look at the general level of our educational scores and our know-how.  Sure, we still have Steve Jobs in embryo, but for every Jobs and Gates there are three hundred who want to make their fortune on American Idol.  All in all this is a delusional culture badly in need of re-hab.

[makattak]

Yes, the smart and valiant Ten Per Cent are carrying the load.  Problem is, they are getting tired and becoming deliberately dispirited by hostile policies.  We are burning through our cultural capital at a very fast rate.  Take a sober look at the general level of our educational scores and our know-how.  Sure, we still have Steve Jobs in embryo, but for every Jobs and Gates there are three hundred who want to make their fortune on American Idol.  All in all this is a delusional culture badly in need of re-hab.

I completely agree. However, the cultural issues are not caused by our economic progress.

Now, I would argue that future economic progress will depend on addressing the cultural issues, but that is a seperate question over whether "We are losing all our manufacturing and we don't produce anything "real" in this country anymore!11!!"

[longeyes]

You're right, we should not exaggerate our weakness, but we should identify it.  While our cultural problem are not caused by our economic progress, as you note, our future economic progress will depend on dealing with our cultural issues.  We are not the nation we once were in terms of our values and our resolve and our perception of hard realities.