Author Topic: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling  (Read 1865 times)

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,333
More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« on: August 31, 2014, 11:56:06 AM »
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2738653/Stunning-satellite-images-summer-ice-cap-thicker-covers-1-7million-square-kilometres-MORE-2-years-ago-despite-Al-Gore-s-prediction-ICE-FREE-now.html

Surprise, surprise -- the AlGore was wrong again. Arctic sea ice has managed to increase over the last two years rather than conveniently disappear in support of the AlGore's prognostications. But, even in accepting this, other so-called "climate scientists" are still trying to blame it on global warming.

Quote
Dr Hawkins warned against reading too much into ice increase over the past two years on the grounds that 2012 was an ‘extreme low’, triggered by freak weather.

‘I’m uncomfortable with the idea of people saying the ice has bounced back,’ he said.

However, Dr Hawkins added that the decline seen in recent years was not caused only by global warming. It was, he said, intensified by ‘natural variability’ – shifts in factors such as the temperature of the oceans. This, he said, has happened before, such as in the 1920s and 1930s, when ‘there was likely some sea ice retreat’.

Dr Hawkins said: ‘There is undoubtedly some natural variability on top of the long-term downwards trend caused by the overall warming. This variability has probably contributed somewhat to the post-2000 steep declining trend, although the human-caused component still dominates.’

Like many scientists, Dr Hawkins said these natural processes may be cyclical. If and when they go into reverse, they will cool, not warm, the Arctic, in which case, he said, ‘a decade with no declining trend’ in ice cover would be ‘entirely plausible’.

So, in other words, two years of steep increase is not enough to take into serious consideration, but eight years of "steep" decline is evidence of a "long term" trend and "cyclical change." Seems to me, in thinking of long-term, cyclical change, we need to be thinking in terms of centuries, not decades. I know I have posted this before, but I'll repeat: for about 500 years (roughly 900 through 1400) the Vikings had an agrarian society on Greenland. They finally abandoned Greenland when it got too COLD for them to farm. So, in terms of long-term cycles, it seems to me we shouldn't start worrying, and especially not blaming mankind, unless and until it gets too HOT to farm on Greenland.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,932
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2014, 04:07:56 PM »
All that CO2 returned to the atmosphere may save our tushies in terms of keeping us warm as other factors try to get us into the next ice age again  Not to mention being able to grow enough to support our enlarging population.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,333
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2014, 12:27:13 AM »
Having now seen a graph of data for the most recent ten-year period, I entered the data into Excel, reproduced their graph, and added a line of best fit. Yes, there has been a decline over the past ten years -- but hardly what I would characterize as "steep."

Then I thought it would be interesting to expand beyond the ten-year window and see what a line of best fit looks like over 20 or 50 or 100 years. I spent at least a half hour to forty-five minutes searching the Internet for data -- as in numbers. What I found was -- graphs, with no explanation of how they were derived. To me, it appears that the so-called "climate scientists" are intentionally concealing the raw data so that nobody can dispute their doomsday graphs.

I'd really like to go back to about 1000 A.D. and graph it from there, but I don't think the Vikings were keeping detailed records of arctic sea ice.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,932
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2014, 10:49:48 AM »
Well, there are "proxy" temps derived from various other parameters, and these show a rather noisy cycle, something like 11-14Ka (thousands of years) within the larger 400Ka record. But within those gross major cycles there were rather sharp random-looking excursions within much shorter periods.

So even when there's a general up or down trend in those longer cycles, there are spikes, both up and down, in shorter time periods.

My objection to the global warming "panic," if you will, is that this so-called sudden rise in temperatures over the short period that we've had actual primary temperature records, might well be just one of those between-major-cycle spikes.

In other words, it's the sample size of only about 200 years from which they've got "real" data from actual thermometers that's causing all the hand-wringing and doomsday predictions about a "hockey-stick" shaped upward excursion of temperatures.  This, as Hawkmoon has already pointed out.  However, I have previously stated that "It's the sample size, stupid!" right here on this board as well as others.

Now I realize that Chaos Theory says that sometimes even small changes down in the 19th (or 119th) decimal place can trigger large changes in many kinds of phenomena, but the long-term results usually return to the norm around the "attractor," as Chaos Theorists put it.  Beyond pointing this out, though, I'm not saying more, because I'm still in Chaos Theory 101 --and failing the class.  

However, it needs to be said. at least as another parameter that should be considered.

But for me, my objection remains, that the tiny, tiny little sample of 200-250 years  of temperature readings out of 400 thousand years doesn't tell us enough to mandate stupid California new gas can regulations and Compact Flourescent Lamps... with the atttendant extra dollars out of my pocket, as well as removing my decision-making capability on so many other things.

I see "global warming" as nonsense.  

As I recall, there were predictions several decades ago that we were indeed heading into another little ice age.  

But I guess in those days, scientists were scientists instead of political toadies.

There.  I said it and I ain't takin' it back.

Terry, 230RN

« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 10:56:35 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2014, 11:11:30 AM »
Right now we're having weather more like late September than late August ...   =|

It feels kind of good, but I sure ain't ready for another long cold winter  =(
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,932
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2014, 01:54:03 PM »
^ Montanal Cooling.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2014, 02:13:28 PM »
Right now we're having weather more like late September than late August ...   =|

It feels kind of good, but I sure ain't ready for another long cold winter  =(

I've got a hunch that this winter will be another cold one here.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2014, 02:26:21 PM »
Yea me too


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2014, 02:29:46 PM »
I keep cutting firewood ....  =|
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2014, 04:55:53 PM »
What I found was -- graphs, with no explanation of how they were derived. To me, it appears that the so-called "climate scientists" are intentionally concealing the raw data so that nobody can dispute their doomsday graphs.

This.

Folk doing real science (rahter than "science") would have no fear sharing raw data and include detailed explanations of the methodology they used to both normalize the data and write their models.  In fact, they would include source code.

Given these "scientists" do none of this, we can reasonably conclude they are not doing science, but advocacy.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,932
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2014, 12:06:58 AM »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Calumus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,207
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2014, 02:15:49 AM »
I've got a hunch that this winter will be another cold one here.

My cousin is a beef farmer about 6 hours north east of Toronto. I was talking to him about this winter and he said that the old timers in his area told him that the best way to gauge the upcoming winter was to look at where the wasp nests were. If they're close to the ground, you won't get much snow. If they're above eye level, it's going to be heavy. He's only seen nests in the rafters this year...

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,843
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2014, 11:18:30 AM »
Does he have to be able to bring all the cows into a barn up there?
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2014, 12:00:20 PM »
I've got a hunch that this winter will be another cold one here.

More then a hunch. Yellow is actual number of observed sunspots, red is "smoothed" or trend line.  Blue is model predictions.   Draw your own conclusions. 



Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2014, 12:25:07 PM »
More then a hunch. Yellow is actual number of observed sunspots, red is "smoothed" or trend line.  Blue is model predictions.   Draw your own conclusions.  





We are heading for an ice age which will cause fewer sun spots?  :P

Do I win a clinate change grant?
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Calumus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,207
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2014, 01:16:18 PM »
Does he have to be able to bring all the cows into a barn up there?

I'm not positive; but I would assume so. -30C isn't unusual, plus the wolves get a bit bolder when the small game is gone for the winter. He runs beef, so they're hardier then a dairy cow would be; but I think he'd rather they be using their calories to bulk up rather then keep warm.

griz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,060
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2014, 12:10:54 AM »
Quote
Dr Hawkins said: ‘There is undoubtedly some natural variability on top of the long-term downwards trend caused by the overall warming. This variability has probably contributed somewhat to the post-2000 steep declining trend, although the human-caused component still dominates.’

Do I understand this correctly, he can pick which parts of variability are caused by humans?
Sent from a stone age computer via an ordinary keyboard.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,333
Re: More global [s]warming[/s] cooling
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2014, 02:18:38 AM »
Do I understand this correctly, he can pick which parts of variability are caused by humans?

Or does that mean he can choose the parts of variability he says are caused by humans?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Sergeant Bob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,861
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G