Author Topic: When gun control works  (Read 1285 times)

Perd Hapley

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When gun control works
« on: June 29, 2016, 03:37:43 PM »
With the Paris, Brussels, San Bernadino, Orlando, and now Istanbul attacks, I was wondering if we might make a list of mass murders in places where gun controls failed to prevent a relatively high body count. Obviously, we'll count any mass killing, regardless of the methods used. I do think we should limit it to those with 10 or more victims, just so we don't have to count every single murder.

Each entry should provide a place, body count (plus the wounded, if you like), time frame, and whether the candle stick or lead pipe was used. Also, point out any relevant gun laws, with some kind of source to verify same.

Something along the lines of this:

Istanbul, Turkey - 2016: 41 killed (not sure if that includes the villains what done it) with guns and bombs

Semi-automatics (and automatics) apparently banned.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/turkey
I bet suicide vests aren't allowed, either.
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brimic

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Re: When gun control works
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2016, 03:49:10 PM »
With the Paris, Brussels, San Bernadino, Orlando, and now Istanbul attacks, I was wondering if we might make a list of mass murders in places where gun controls failed to prevent a relatively high body count. Obviously, we'll count any mass killing, regardless of the methods used. I do think we should limit it to those with 10 or more victims, just so we don't have to count every single murder.

Each entry should provide a place, body count (plus the wounded, if you like), time frame, and whether the candle stick or lead pipe was used. Also, point out any relevant gun laws, with some kind of source to verify same.

Something along the lines of this:

Istanbul, Turkey - 2016: 41 killed (not sure if that includes the villains what done it) with guns and bombs

Semi-automatics (and automatics) apparently banned.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/turkey
I bet suicide vests aren't allowed, either.


Turkey also death marched and killed a million and a half armenians about a century ago- after disarming them.
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Mannlicher

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Re: When gun control works
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2016, 07:55:01 PM »
as all sentient beings know, gun control has never been about promoting public safety.  It's always about government controlling the Citizens.

brimic

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Re: When gun control works
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2016, 08:10:53 PM »
as all sentient beings know, gun control has never been about promoting public safety.  It's always about government controlling the Citizens.


An even more cynical person (Machiavelli) would say allowing citizens to own arms legitimizes your control over them. While true, I prefer this parity over being completely powerless.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
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TommyGunn

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Re: When gun control works
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2016, 12:20:32 AM »
An even more cynical person (Machiavelli) would say allowing citizens to own arms legitimizes your control over them. While true, I prefer this parity over being completely powerless.

Hmmmm.  In "The Prince,"  Machiavelli makes two observations with regards to personal arms.  First, he claims that princes who disarm their subjects cause them to hate their prince, and elsewhere he states 'there has never been a case where a new prince has come to power and disarmed his people; instead, when he finds them disarmed he promptly has armed them, and in arming them makes their arms his own.'  The second seems more in line with "legitimizing power,"  but I have no doubt Machiavelli believed that citizens should be armed.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: When gun control works
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2016, 09:48:37 AM »
Big Muslim holiday tomorrow. Stay tuned...

Well, there we go.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/world/asia/attackers-seize-hostages-and-detonate-explosives-in-bangladesh-restaurant.html?_r=0

Hopefully, this won't qualify for our list.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 02:59:00 PM by fistful »
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Hawkmoon

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Re: When gun control works
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2016, 03:28:49 PM »
Big Muslim holiday tomorrow. Stay tuned...

Well, there we go.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/world/asia/attackers-seize-hostages-and-detonate-explosives-in-bangladesh-restaurant.html?_r=0

Hopefully, this won't qualify for our list.

Looks like it makes the list. 20 people killed (not including six terrorists, also killed).

Folks, let's help Fisty out with compiling this list. If you don't feel like doing the research, at least post suggestions of incidents he can look up. My suggestions to date:

The Norway youth camp massacre
Spanish train bombing
Beslan
Munich Olympics
Paris attacks
Charlie Hebdo
German (Cologne) school attack (with flamethrower!)

There must be more -- which ones come to mind?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: When gun control works
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2016, 03:43:32 PM »
Here we go again:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/02/gunman-kills-5-wounds-20-in-serbia-cafe.html?intcmp=trending

Cafe attack in Zrenjanin, Serbia. Casualty count so far is 5 dead and 20 wounded.
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AJ Dual

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Re: When gun control works
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2016, 09:11:56 PM »
Hmmmm.  In "The Prince,"  Machiavelli makes two observations with regards to personal arms.  First, he claims that princes who disarm their subjects cause them to hate their prince, and elsewhere he states 'there has never been a case where a new prince has come to power and disarmed his people; instead, when he finds them disarmed he promptly has armed them, and in arming them makes their arms his own.'  The second seems more in line with "legitimizing power,"  but I have no doubt Machiavelli believed that citizens should be armed.

Who knows what the hell Machiavelli thought about the people having arms. First off, "the people" was probably even more exclusive than it was at the time of the American Founding. Even among the enlightened, "The People" usually means men of property or means. I doubt he even considered that a stable boy or peasant field hand ought to have a sword or a matchlock, assuming he could afford either.

And of course, 1/2 of the world who is familiar with "The Prince" thinks it's a tongue in cheek parody through hyperbole of what "The Prince" ought not to do, or was a sly critique masked by praise of what the Medici family or leaders of various Italian city-states did indeed do. At least based on Machiavelli's other works chronicling history, and his own torture and imprisonment at the hands of the government.

My gut feeling, assuming not too much has been lost in translation is that it's a mix. Both one part critique and sly parody, and one part grudging respect in the realm of the realpolitik of his day. That a Prince or leader who did not do all the "dastardly things" and manipulation would just create more war misery and chaos than the alternatives.

Although, since he seems to indicate the people would/ought to be armed either way, whatever the real reasons, I'm good with it.



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TommyGunn

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Re: When gun control works
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2016, 11:49:47 PM »
Who knows what the hell Machiavelli thought about the people having arms. First off, "the people" was probably even more exclusive than it was at the time of the American Founding. Even among the enlightened, "The People" usually means men of property or means. I doubt he even considered that a stable boy or peasant field hand ought to have a sword or a matchlock, assuming he could afford either.

And of course, 1/2 of the world who is familiar with "The Prince" thinks it's a tongue in cheek parody through hyperbole of what "The Prince" ought not to do, or was a sly critique masked by praise of what the Medici family or leaders of various Italian city-states did indeed do. At least based on Machiavelli's other works chronicling history, and his own torture and imprisonment at the hands of the government.

My gut feeling, assuming not too much has been lost in translation is that it's a mix. Both one part critique and sly parody, and one part grudging respect in the realm of the realpolitik of his day. That a Prince or leader who did not do all the "dastardly things" and manipulation would just create more war misery and chaos than the alternatives.

Although, since he seems to indicate the people would/ought to be armed either way, whatever the real reasons, I'm good with it.

IMHO, I think Machiavelli was being fairly straightforward with regards his beliefs about armed citizenry.  He did believe in a militia system, of sorts.  Not exactly the same as what our country's founders would use.  His system would have consisted of a small cadre of officers who would maintain expertise & proficiency, and the general "body of the people."  The general populace, Machiavelli realized, had to provide for their families and in a largely agrarian society, farming was important to maintain.
Much of the ideas found in "The Prince" would be found also in his main work, "Discourses on Livy."  I know some people think "The Prince" is a parody, but I don't share that view; I think he saved "parody" for works like "Mandragola" ("Mandrake Root") which seems to rival Chaucer's "Wife of Bath" tale in ribaldness.
"The Prince" may not be a completly straightforward accounting of Machiavelli's beliefs -- it was in essence, a sort of resume; as one might prepare a resume to introduce oneself to a potential future employer, "The Prince" was intended to ingratiate Machiavelli to a new leader.  It may contain some "spin" but I personally feel he was being straightforward with his beliefs concerning an armed populace.
And, anyway, I agree with "since he seems to indicate the people would/ought to be armed either way, whatever the real reasons, I'm good with it." :cool:
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero