Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on February 08, 2018, 11:29:52 AM
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From looking at the Shot Show coverage, it looks as if just about every domestic shotgun manufacturer now has one of the 14 inch barrel non-NFA shotguns or 'firearms'. I wonder how these are to shoot. I have a 12 gauge Ithaca 37 with an 18 inch barrel that has the Pachmayr rubber pistol grip/forearm on it, and it is an experience to shoot. The ads for the new firearms talk about how the Raptor/Shockwave grips reduce the felt recoil.
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Here's video of Clint Smith shooting the Shockwave...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM_sqSTg2v8&t=506s
And here is Hickock45...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxECBq-f68s
Don't know that I'd want to spend all day at the range shooting one, but they look interesting, especially as an indoor shotgun.
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The new wood-stocked Remington version is pure sex. I want one.
(https://www.remington.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_gallery_1200/public/product/shotgun/galleryimages/Working-File-81231_Rem_870_Tac14_Hardwood_right.jpg)
Chris
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Very interesting especially in light of the adaptor I recently found* which allows those shorty Aguila 12-gauge shells (1-3/4") to be reliably fed in the Mossberg shotguns without modifying the shell elevators. These short shells increases the standard magazine capacity substantially and reduce the kick.
Adaptor:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/07/daniel-zimmerman/gear-review-opsol-mini-clip-mossberg-shotguns/
https://youtu.be/mAyl_utECBc
OPSOLMINI-CLIP.COM
While the shorty shells are obviously less powerful than full size shells, they are capable of adequate (IMHO) hitting power for close range defense purposes. IMHO. I had occasion to play with them on various targets of opportunity and while they won't saw a 2 X 4 in half like a magnum 12 gauge goose load, I was impressed with the damage. This was long before the OPSOL Mini-clip came out, and I had to single-load the Aguila shells.
Nowadays, with this device, it would seem we would have a good marriage between Mossberg's shorty shotgun and Aguila's shorty shells.
Terry
* June 2017 American Rifleman, page 32. If those adaptors had been around back when I was playing with the Aguilars, I probably would have bought a case of the Aguila shorty shotshells.
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I've fired shotguns like that. the NFA stuff, like the Auto Burglar and the H&R handyguns.
yeah, they look neat, but they are a gold plated bitch to hit with, and the recoil will rip your wrists and elbows to hell and back.
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I've fired shotguns like that. the NFA stuff, like the Auto Burglar and the H&R handyguns.
yeah, they look neat, but they are a gold plated bitch to hit with, and the recoil will rip your wrists and elbows to hell and back.
With the same style stock? Because so far the reports are that these new ones are fairly easy to hit with and recoil isn't an issue.
Chris
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With the same style stock? Because so far the reports are that these new ones are fairly easy to hit with and recoil isn't an issue.
Chris
Does that "modified" pistol grip really make a big difference? Or is it other parts of the design? Like Mike, I have shot, and am not a fan of, pistol grip shotguns - at least the "standard" style.
(https://ii.cheaperthandirt.com/fcgi-bin/iipsrv.fcgi?FIF=/images/cheaperthandirt/source/7-g81187_1.tif&wid=575&cvt=jpeg)
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If you watch Hickock, he makes hits with slugs across the hill on his range, and I think his gong is 100 yards out.
Maybe the shape of the grip helps tame some of the recoil. Instead of kicking back right into your palm, it slides and torques. Kind of like shooting heavy loads in a revolver... SAA style grips let the revolver turn in your hand, reducing the felt recoil compared to a DA Smith grip frame.
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Does that "modified" pistol grip really make a big difference?
What I've read indicates it makes all the difference.
I've fired shotguns from the hip by holding onto the shoulder stock grip and forend. The gun moved a lot, but the recoil wasn't punishing. I can see how a traditional PGS would be rough on the hands/wrists though.
Chris
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"With the same style stock?"
No. Not the same style stock. Google Auto & Burglar or Handigun and you'll see the type of stock they used.
If that new baseball bat style stock works, that would be great.
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I'm not convinced they do anything that couldn't be done better with a handgun.
I haven't shot the newest renditions but I've got 50 years experience shooting shotguns and I've shot some NFA sawed offs. I haven't seen one yet that I want.
Shotguns are great. So are handguns. It's a painful mistake to make a shotgun into a handgun.
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I'm not convinced they do anything that couldn't be done better with a handgun.
I haven't shot the newest renditions but I've got 50 years experience shooting shotguns and I've shot some NFA sawed offs. I haven't seen one yet that I want.
Shotguns are great. So are handguns. It's a painful mistake to make a shotgun into a handgun.
Yeah, but they look really cool. :lol:
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I've never had an issue, painful or otherwise, with a PGO shotty but I'm used to them. The trick is to not gorilla-grip them and stay tensed up. A firm grip and loose arm posture lets your hands and arms ride with the recoil. Takes the strain off your wrist and elbow. I figure a home invasion scenario will have so much adrenaline pumping that it wouldn't matter anyway. At home intruder range I've always been able to stay on a paper plate but, again, it's something that seemed to come naturally so I never had cause to doubt a PGO's efficacy, utility, and usefulness.
Some of the reasons I like PGO's for home defense... Soft lead shot, even 000 buck, has a bit less over-penetration potential relative to a jacketed projectile. The firearm's length makes it far more maneuverable in a home defense scenario versus a shoulder-stocked shotty. Finally, it's hard to argue against the terminal ballistics of a 3" 000 buck round. Does that mean it's the only thing within reach? No. In addition to the 18.5" Mossberg between my bed and nightstand there's also a Ruger .357 in the drawer. Similar setup in the living room. I like having options.
All that said, to each his own and use whatever you feel best suits your style, needs, and comfort level. Most anything that goes "bang" beats the heck out of teeth and rocks.
Brad
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I want one in semi auto.
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I want one in semi auto.
You lack imagination, sir. One demerit.
Brad
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The new wood-stocked Remington version is pure sex. I want one.
(https://www.remington.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_gallery_1200/public/product/shotgun/galleryimages/Working-File-81231_Rem_870_Tac14_Hardwood_right.jpg)
Chris
Yeah, my wife came in while I was reading this thread and even she thinks the Remington looks sexy. She also didn't balk when I mentioned we might need one.
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If I were to get one it would be the intention of shooting the Aguila Mini-shells through it. They have fewer pellets, but are close to the same velocity of regular 12 gauge.
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My wife and I had no issues aiming or shooting our 18.5" Persuader 12ga with low brass bird shot.
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If I were to get one it would be the intention of shooting the Aguila Mini-shells through it. They have fewer pellets, but are close to the same velocity of regular 12 gauge.
You want the Mossberg then. I'm not aware of any conversion kit that enables the 870 to shoot the minishells. Mine wont.
Chris
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My old Mossberg fed them just fine.
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My old Mossberg fed them just fine.
Yeah, I think that's why I said he would want the Mossberg. ;/
Chris
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You know, I think Chris (the other one) has a point. I think I want one just because. The wood is pretty.
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I've fired shotguns like that. the NFA stuff, like the Auto Burglar and the H&R handyguns.
yeah, they look neat, but they are a gold plated bitch to hit with, and the recoil will rip your wrists and elbows to hell and back.
Yes! the elbow! I expected the pain to be in the hands/wrist but after 3 rounds on a PGO I had a distinct acute pain in the strong arm elbow.
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My local gun shop story on PGO shotguns never gets old, well, at least to me. I was in there a lot. How much? The manager would get me to man the store while he went to 7-11. And the store was in Hampton, VA, a veritable paradise. Well, they sold a ton of the Mossberg Persuaders. Best selling gun. The target market did not know how to name the gun to ask to see it so they took to asking for the gun like Denzel used in Training Day. The staff named the guns Denzels amongst themselves. And they weren't done there. Every gun purchase got a free range pass. And then they upsold them 3" magnum slugs just so the staff at the range store could watch the show. Less humorous if you are on the line, I do not care for dropped/tossed guns around me.
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If I bought one I'd also have to get the post-apocalyptic over-the-back scabbard to go with.
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I get the cool factor, but I will still argue against any real practical use.
In typical interior rooms and halls, give me a .45 handgun and leave one hand free for a flashlight, opening doors, signaling, etc.
Outside areas out to 40-50 yards or so, I'm happy with a full stock shotgun or a carbine.
That thing is nothing but a Hollywood-inspired abomination. I predict they will sell a bunch of them anyway.
Why hasn't somebody put a bayonet lug on one yet?
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Guns don't have to be practical or the best solution to a problem. Sometimes they can be cool looking and fun to shoot.
I wouldn't buy one as a personal defense gun, but given a few hundred dollars of "play money", I'd be all over it just for the giggle factor.
Chris
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Some of the reasons I like PGO's for home defense... Soft lead shot, even 0000 buck, has a bit less over-penetration potential relative to a jacketed projectile. The firearm's length makes it far more maneuverable in a home defense scenario versus a shoulder-stocked shotty.
Caveat: Use what you're comfortable with.
About that "a bit less over-penetration," a .38" 80g lead ball at 1,200 FPS will penetrate the same as a FMJ 9mm 124g at 1,000 FPS according to the Box O' Truth guys. Here is the rifle and shotgun test: https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
If you dig around, you'll find similar results for all of the FMJ pistol rounds he tests. The only load that doesn't penetrate more than one wall is birdshot.
I couldn't find any tests of 0000 buckshot into ballistic gellatin, but I did find plenty of 000 buck tests. The 000 buck often penetrates more than 16 inches of gel. Most hollow-point pistol rounds most often stop in 16 inches of gel. No, that doesn't prove pistols are better or that shotguns will shoot through houses, but it should make you think about the fact that your shotgun ammo will most likely go through six walls, just like your .357 will.
Again, use what you're comfortable with and what works. Just don't make that decision on the false idea that 0000 buck from a 3 inch shell will have less overpenetration that a typical pistol round.
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You lack imagination, sir. One demerit.
Brad
What if we make it mag-fed? >:D [ar15]
http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590m-mag-fed/
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So what are the classified as? They are too cheap to be AOW's. (I think the transfer fee is only $5, but still a $200 tax to manufacture it.)
I like the Remington; do they make it in a 20 gauge?
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What if we make it mag-fed? >:D [ar15]
http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590m-mag-fed/
It's a start.
Brad
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So what are the classified as? They are too cheap to be AOW's. (I think the transfer fee is only $5, but still a $200 tax to manufacture it.)
I like the Remington; do they make it in a 20 gauge?
They are classified as "firearms" just like a pistol or rifle or shotgun. They are not regulated by the NFA.
Here is a good run down on the how and why: https://www.ffl123.com/no-nonsense-non-nfa-14-inch-scatterguns/
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For $30, just out of curiosity, I might order one of those Shockwave stocks to try on one of my 18" barrel shotguns, just to see the difference between the Birdshead and the "standard" pistol grip.
Just for fun. As others have said, use whatever works for you. I'm just in the camp that for serious work, if it has a long barrel, I want the shoulder thing that goes up. Not that my mind couldn't be changed though. :)
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Caveat: Use what you're comfortable with.
About that "a bit less over-penetration," a .38" 80g lead ball at 1,200 FPS will penetrate the same as a FMJ 9mm 124g at 1,000 FPS according to the Box O' Truth guys. Here is the rifle and shotgun test: https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
First, a correction... I had had the wrong ammo in mind when I was typing the previous reply. I said 0000 and that's in error. It's 000. Remington 3", to be precise. Checked the ammo closet last night just to be sure. Previous post edited to reflect the correct info.
Interesting on the Box O Truth link. I'd like to see a direct comparison of .357 to 000 buck (standard soft lead shot) as that's what I have. I use Hydra Shok in the .357 and it's advertised at 1240 FPS. It'd be a good apples-to-apples comparison with the 1225 FPS (advertised) 3" Remmy 000 loads.
I'd like to see what happens if they placed walls on a slight oblique, and with standard studding. In a home invasion scenario rarely will there be just a piece of perfectly perpendicular sheet rock between you and whatever you don't want to hit. My guess is the penetration for shot will show a noticeable reduction when encountering studs, although this will likely be offset by the fact that there are multiple projectiles per load vs. the single projectile for a handgun.
Brad
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If I bought one I'd also have to get the post-apocalyptic over-the-back scabbard to go with.
I was thinking of putting a lanyard hole through the stock (or attaching a loop) and setting it up under an overcoat like Reese from Terminator.
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For $30, just out of curiosity, I might order one of those Shockwave stocks to try on one of my 18" barrel shotguns, just to see the difference between the Birdshead and the "standard" pistol grip.
Just for fun. As others have said, use whatever works for you. I'm just in the camp that for serious work, if it has a long barrel, I want the shoulder thing that goes up. Not that my mind couldn't be changed though. :)
I have looked on the Shockwave site, and so far they are not making a grip for the Ithaca 37. I should ask them to do so.
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A thought...if you can legally put a "brace" on a handgun without created an SBR under NFA laws, could you put a brace on one of these without creating NFA problems?
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A thought...if you can legally put a "brace" on a handgun without created an SBR under NFA laws, could you put a brace on one of these without creating NFA problems?
Folks are way ahead of you.
https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/accessories/sb-tactical-tac-14-shockwave-braces/
https://suarezinternational.com/mossberg-shockwave-pdw-kit/
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When it came to the Shockwave, I decided that discretion was the better part of valor.
I handed it back to Dad after standing there for about two minutes trying to figure out how the hell I was going to shoot it without loosing it.
So it's now the second gun I can't/won't shoot, the other being the Cruiser, because it's just an accident waiting to happen. I'm game for recoil, I'm cool with a little pain and I'll work through those things, but I'm not messing with something I literally cannot keep a grip on and is going to go flying through the air.
That said, Dad also has trouble with it and he's great with the Cruiser. He's been able to work at it and improve, but there was a learning curve on it.
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If I have money for a stamp I want to get one of those three barrel Chiappa abominations and chop it to 6" and make a hip holster for it. Because pirates or something.
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"or something."
Didn't some NYPD types carry a shorty SxS 20 ga.? What's wrong with that?
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I want one in semi auto.
Fostech 12.