God and the Democrats

[mtnbkr]

But how long will we tolerate people saying hateful things like "rapists' kids should be put to death," and not respond to it?

Like hyperbole much?

Nobody is being hateful.  Nobody is saying a rapist's baby should be murdered.  What nobody has resolved is the significant expense and risks involved with carrying an unwanted child to term and then to adulthood.  We can always suggest adoption, but that doesn't remove the risk of pregnancy and childbirth to the mother, who is, like the child, an innocent party to this crime.  If mom can't pay, then society will pay. 

Chris

[Nick1911]

Of course they should be forced to carry to term. Every pregnant woman should. We shouldn't allow people to kill innocent children. How can you endorse that?

Assuming this is an honest question, I would love to be able to answer it.  But, an interesting thing I've learned about the world – this question can't be answered; can't be done.  Not in any meaningful sense.  People who believe it is correct to support such things, of which I am one, have such a drastically different perception of reality that there is actually no way to express it in a way that is truly comprehendible.  If I tried to explain it, and you tried to step into that frame of mind, the resulting cognitive dissonance with the rest of your value system would just make my viewpoint look all the more abhorrent and corrupt.  It would be a frustrating exercise for both of us – from where you are coming from it is both obvious and intuitive that I am wrong.  And, of course, my perspective shows me the opposite.

This isn't a dig on you.  This is a two way street.  There is no way I will be able to internalize your perspective on this, regardless of what is said.  To draw an analogy, if we were to meet someone who comes from a culture where honor killings are accepted and encouraged in specific circumstances; no matter what that person says, neither of us would be able to fully internalize a perspective where that is okay; our biases from the rest of our value system and how we see the world won't allow for it.  We reject it.

In a very real sense, we live in different worlds.

[makattak]

Who takes care of the "mother" while she is pregnant?  Pregnancy, even with insurance, is expensive.  Complications more so.  Pregnancy, even today, can be fatal to the mother and child.  Who pays for this?  The rapist, who may not have anything?  The mother who's only crime was being raped?  You and I?  What about after the birth?  Who cares for the child, pays for the expenses of their life until they become and adult?  What if nobody will adopt this child?  What is the childbirth causes lifelong complications for the mother?  Do we force "mom" to shoulder the burden because she had the temerity to be a rape victim?  

Chris

Who takes care of the "business owner" after an arson? Arson, even with insurance, is expensive to recover from. Government regulations on rebuilding, more so. Rebuilding a lost business, even today, can be fatal to the owner working long hours. Who pays for this? The arsonist, who may not have anything? The business owner whose only crime was having his business burned down? You and I? What about after the business is rebuilt? Who runs the business, pays the salaries to keep it going? What if no one wants to buy this business? What if rebuilding the business stresses out the business owner and causes lifelong complications? Do we force a business owner to shoulder the burden because he had the temerity to be an arson victim?


Shorter version: crimes cause significant cost to the victim, many that extend far beyond the immediate moment of the act. Rape is one of these that have long term consequences. We don't try to alleviate the consequences of one crime with a greater one against an innocent. (See my question about enslaving the progeny of other criminals.)

[MechAg94]

This disagreement is the main reason I'd like to see the SC overturn Roe vs Wade and let this go back to the 50 states to decide.  If you don't like what your state is doing, you got more choices.

[SADShooter]

This disagreement is the main reason I'd like to see the SC overturn Roe vs Wade and let this go back to the 50 states to decide.  If you don't like what your state is doing, you got more choices.

That may be a best case outcome for a time, but I don't see it lasting any more than Roe settled the question. More court challenges, and drives for Constitutional amendments from both sides is what I see as a more plausible scenario.

[mtnbkr]

Who takes care of the "business owner" after an arson? Arson, even with insurance, is expensive to recover from. Government regulations on rebuilding, more so. Rebuilding a lost business, even today, can be fatal to the owner working long hours. Who pays for this? The arsonist, who may not have anything? The business owner whose only crime was having his business burned down? You and I? What about after the business is rebuilt? Who runs the business, pays the salaries to keep it going? What if no one wants to buy this business? What if rebuilding the business stresses out the business owner and causes lifelong complications? Do we force a business owner to shoulder the burden because he had the temerity to be an arson victim?


Shorter version: crimes cause significant cost to the victim, many that extend far beyond the immediate moment of the act. Rape is one of these that have long term consequences. We don't try to alleviate the consequences of one crime with a greater one against an innocent. (See my question about enslaving the progeny of other criminals.)

There is more than a little difference between a violent assault and burdening the victim with another human's life and replacing a business.  It doesn't even compare.

Chris

[Strings]

There's a case currently that really highlights the problem with the "no abortion ever" belief.

11 year old girl, raped by her mother's boyfriend and gotten pregnant.

Those of you arguing that even in cases of rape, abortion should never happen, are arguing that this 11 year old child should be subjected to 9 more months of abuse (physical, as her body changes. And emotional, being forced to act as an incubator for her rapists child). All for the "crime" of being the victim of a rapist.

Keep that VERY firmly in mind, when you say "no abortion ever". You are placing the "rights" of that unborn child above the rights of that rape victim. THAT, to me, is FAR more hateful than saying "the victim should have the right to terminate the pregnancy"

[grampster]

This thread is doomed because this is an unanswerable issue. 

My family has always been opposed to abortion.  Having said that, we also see no end to abortions.  What does one do?  Well, we've been supporting a local Pregnancy Resource Center, in fact helped start it around 1985 or so.  The PRC supplies every and all sorts of support for women with unwanted pregnancies, through birth and beyond.  My family along with thousands of others put our money where our mouth is and provide whatever assistance is needed.  Our financial aid cancels out any of my tax dollars that are used to kill babies.  I can't stop paying the tax, so we feel we have to spend voluntary dollars to provide alternatives to abortion.  Our local PRC has been the seed organization to assist other PRC's start up in other cities and states.

One of the reasons why we did this was to expose Planned Parenthood for the abortion mill that it is.  Our first PRC opened up next door to PP.  They were hateful people there at PP.  They tried to find people to buy the building we were in from our landlord, offering him more money than the building was worth so they could close us down.  He told them to fly a kite.  They lied and denied that abortions were being performed in their building and lied about the PRC.  The local PRC has thrived and continues to perform its mission.

[erictank]

Who takes care of the "business owner" after an arson? Arson, even with insurance, is expensive to recover from. Government regulations on rebuilding, more so. Rebuilding a lost business, even today, can be fatal to the owner working long hours. Who pays for this? The arsonist, who may not have anything? The business owner whose only crime was having his business burned down? You and I? What about after the business is rebuilt? Who runs the business, pays the salaries to keep it going? What if no one wants to buy this business? What if rebuilding the business stresses out the business owner and causes lifelong complications? Do we force a business owner to shoulder the burden because he had the temerity to be an arson victim?


Shorter version: crimes cause significant cost to the victim, many that extend far beyond the immediate moment of the act. Rape is one of these that have long term consequences. We don't try to alleviate the consequences of one crime with a greater one against an innocent. (See my question about enslaving the progeny of other criminals.)

So instead you're enslaving the VICTIM of the crime, rather than the criminal (or, to continue your analogy, his children). You're committing a further abuse of the victim, with the backing of society and the force of government behind it.  ETA - like Strings said. You're claiming that the wrong already done that little girl is not enough, that she must be FURTHER harmed, at the hands of those she has a right to expect JUSTICE from, beyond what that waste of oxygen has already done to her.

This is kind of what Nick was talking about, IMO - the different views held by each side make this a problem unlikely to ever be "solved".

[Jamisjockey]

Yet again, the unsolvable abortion argument wrecks a thread.

[Fitz]

I believe that maybe a baby is better off in heaven than on earth with a damaged, resentful mother

Am I the only person who believes this?

[TommyGunn]

I guess so. But how long will we tolerate people saying hateful things like "rapists' kids should be put to death," and not respond to it? If someone was making racist comments, that would derail the thread. Same thing.

While this may not have been directed at me I feel I should respond to it.
I would never state "rapists' kids should be put to death."   I didn't say

Really?  Because when women have been raped, and become pregnant, they should be forced to carry to term?  

because I necessarily thought I had the answer.  I don't.  I'm not sure you have the answer, or anyone here has the answer.
I don't really understand why it is "hateful" to have a particular opinion on this subject, however.  Certainly one may disagree with an opinion, but I don't see how that necessarily makes an opinion "hateful."
I don't "hate" babies that were created through rape any more than through the act of a loving dedicated couple who wish to become parents.  I do, however, for the record, hate rapists.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

known a few damaged resentful moms.  none were that way as result of rape.

[Fitz]

Irrelevant as usual, csd

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Irrelevant as usual, csd

well maybe this will help
  know 4 possibly 5 ladies with kids that were conceived as a result of rape   none of them are "damaged and resentful"  seems some folks have the character it takes to not fall into that "damaged and resentful " pit.
further no one says that you need to keep a kid.  lots of folks would love to adopt
if we were to remove kids from "damaged and resentful " parents, of either gender, there would be a lot of kids needing luggage

[Jamisjockey]

Sweet baby fetus enough.

[Jamisjockey]

And reporting this post is senseless: I already locked it. Pay attention.