The conversation about guns we're not having

[MillCreek]

https://www.vox.com/vox-conversations-podcast/22933212/vox-conversations-america-gun-rights-second-amendment-stephen-gutowski

Stephen Gutowski and Sean Illing have a conversation and podcast.

[Fly320s]

It aint the guns causing the problems, so maybe "we" should stop talking about guns and start talking about the real cause.

[AJ Dual]

There was one good nugget in there. Community based violence prevention efforts.

Not touchy-feely stuff, like midnight basketball, but real data driven analysis to find future likely offenders and victims, with police and community figures working together, talking with the at-risk people to try and defuse conflicts have proven successful.

Actually digging into inner-city urban dynamics and figuring out who has a "beef" with somebody, and diffusing it in a no-judgment, no criminal jeopardy way actually has shown to work.

Unfortunately, crimes that never happen don't generate calls for funding. And most of these efforts dry up after a few years.

It's a good way of addressing that roughly half the murder/crime in America is getting committed by 7% of the population. And the victims are largely overrepresented in the same numbers. It's verboten to actually discuss this openly, and these kinds of programs are still able to address it.

If every major city in the US had a program like this, and kept at it, it would cut a significant chunk off the top of our murder stats. It wouldn't do much to deter crimes of passion, or armed robberies gone wrong, but the inner-city honor culture and cycles of retaliation type of shootings that's a huge bulk of our murder stats could be greatly reduced.

[WLJ]

It aint the guns causing the problems, so maybe "we" should stop talking about guns and start talking about the real cause.

WE have been
They on the other hand....

[MillCreek]

There was one good nugget in there. Community based violence prevention efforts.

Not touchy-feely stuff, like midnight basketball, but real data driven analysis to find future likely offenders and victims, with police and community figures working together, talking with the at-risk people to try and defuse conflicts have proven successful.

Actually digging into inner-city urban dynamics and figuring out who has a "beef" with somebody, and diffusing it in a no-judgment, no criminal jeopardy way actually has shown to work.

Unfortunately, crimes that never happen don't generate calls for funding. And most of these efforts dry up after a few years.

It's a good way of addressing that roughly half the murder/crime in America is getting committed by 7% of the population. And the victims are largely overrepresented in the same numbers. It's verboten to actually discuss this openly, and these kinds of programs are still able to address it.

If every major city in the US had a program like this, and kept at it, it would cut a significant chunk off the top of our murder stats. It wouldn't do much to deter crimes of passion, or armed robberies gone wrong, but the inner-city honor culture and cycles of retaliation type of shootings that's a huge bulk of our murder stats could be greatly reduced.

The gun and ammo tax in Seattle (the reason why there are no longer any gun stores within Seattle city limits) is to fund such efforts at Harborview, the King County trauma hospital.  I have not heard how effective it is.

[K Frame]

Oh bullshit, if we get rid of evil, EVIL guns, crime will simply vanish! No more murders, no more violence, just unicorns and rainbows.

[Nick1911]

Nuts.  I was hoping this would be a discussion about how effective stingers and javelins have shown to be in Ukraine.  Obviously, they should be covered under the 2A for the protection of national sovereignty, the republic, and the american way of life.

[AJ Dual]

The gun and ammo tax in Seattle (the reason why there are no longer any gun stores within Seattle city limits) is to fund such efforts at Harborview, the King County trauma hospital.  I have not heard how effective it is.

It depends on how it's set up.

If there's a "Big Data" analysis to identify at-risk individuals.

If there's cooperation between police and community figures to talk/meet with these at-risk individuals under guarantees of safety from arrest or prosecution.

If... If... If...

You have to be able to identify which ones follow the successful pattern, and which are just boilerplate agencies of social workers pushing paper and not doing anything effective.

[MillCreek]

^^^

https://hiprc.org/firearm/

[230RN]

WLJ noted,

"

Quote from: Fly320s on Today at 07:33:06 AM
It aint the guns causing the problems, so maybe "we" should stop talking about guns and start talking about the real cause.

WE have been
They on the other hand....
"

Ah, but Our talk is stifled.  Their talk appears in almost every published page, every kilowatt of broadcast energy, every PTA meeting, every foot or kilobyte of movies, every joint where latte is served....

"The Second Amendment is perhaps the shortest and most powerful limitation on government powers in the whole Constitution. Therefore it should be assumed that the old farts who ratified it, with their extensive knowledge of how governments accrue power, really, really, really meant what they said."  --Terry, 230RN, 1969ff.

Terry, 230RN

[WLJ]

"The Second Amendment is perhaps the shortest and most powerful limitation on government powers in the whole Constitution. Therefore it shou;f be assued that the old farts who ratified it, with their extensive knowledge of how governments accrue power, really, really, really meant what they said."  --Terry, 230RN, 1969ff.

Terry, 230RN

NSFW at the very end

Penn & Teller on Gun Control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4zE0K22zH8

[230RN]

Note the date on which I started to recognize that simple fact on the Second Amendment.

By GCA68 I had become prett well immersed in the "gun issue" and first came across the Preamble to the Bill Of Rights, which clearly states the BOR's purpose.

Easy for you to look up, but back then it was a matter of "paper research" since  there was no internet.

Here, I even did it for you:

Congress of the United States begun and held at the City of New York, on Wednesday the Fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution. (Partial quote, Bolding mine)

So there.  Nyah!

Terry, 230RN

[MechAg94]

Oh bullshit, if we get rid of evil, EVIL guns, crime will simply vanish! No more murders, no more violence, just unicorns and rainbows.

You are 100% correct, GUN Crime will vanish.  That is all that matters.  Later on we can address KNIFE Crime, etc.  We will eliminate crime step by step until we complete redefine it. 

[Pb]

The conversation that I wish would be had in public is that the primary purpose of the Second Amendment is to protect the ownership of weapons of war to prevent governmental tyranny.  Protection against crime is secondary.  We have these conversations among ourselves all the time, but it gets almost no traction with the public, and the judiciary is horrified by the idea.

The right to own weapons of war is not an opinion, it is a fact.  The Revolutionary generation stated it plainly.  For about a hundred years after the Bill of Rights was written, every commentary on what weapons could be owned specified that it included weapons of war.  Every court case addressing what weapons could be owned said it protected either all weapons or only military weapons.  There are many state court cases about this from the 19th Century (these usually deal with state level RKBA provisions, as most courts held the Second to not apply to the states).

This is preaching to the choir.  I am not concerned about owning weapons to prevent crime.  I don't want our government becoming abusive in the future.  All military rifles should be freely available to the law-abiding public.  However, I am not delusional enough to think this will ever be the case.   

[230RN]

At this point in time, it looks like all we can do is bitch to each other, The media is in lockstep with the big-city anti-gunners and the "statisticians" are not above a little data point selecting.

As I keep saying, and often get tired of hearing my own words:

The Fix is in.

But let's see what happens this November.

Terry

[WLJ]

And the solution will be?......More restrictive gun laws on the law abiding of course.
Oh and release more criminals

LAPD Chief Michael Moore says robberies with a gun in Los Angeles are “up 44 percent from 2021” and “up 57 percent from 2020.”

CBS Los Angeles reports Moore also indicated “Robberies with a firearm account for 36% of all robberies, and accounts for 74% of the city’s year-to-date total robbery increase.”

Moore said, “There’s been a marked increase of armed robberies involving victims wearing expensive jewelry, as well as just other individuals whether they’re at commercial stores such as mini markets, convenience stores, gas stations, or on the street.”

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/a-history-of-failure-la-armed-robberies-up-57-despite-dozens-of-gun-control-laws/

[Hawkmoon]

It aint the guns causing the problems, so maybe "we" should stop talking about guns and start talking about the real cause.

I've been saying that for years.

[230RN]

^ So have I, but as has been pointed out, the MSM holds all the cards and....

The Fix is in.

When the internet and bulletin boards started up, I figured, oh, boy, maybe the voice of the people would now be heard..

But now the big social media and other mega sites hold all the cards, they're marked, and...

The Fix is in,

[Perd Hapley]

^ So have I, but as has been pointed out, the MSM holds all the cards and....

The Fix is in.

When the internet and bulletin boards started up, I figured, oh, boy, maybe the voice of the people would now be heard..

But now the big social media and other mega sites hold all the cards, they're marked, and...

The Fix is in,

Self-fulfilling prophecy. Please consider not telling your fellow Americans to give up. It is most unhelpful.

[grampster]

So I read an article today.  A 12 year old shot her 14 year old cousin and then shot herself.  The quote I read from a relative mentioned how it was a tragic accident...they were just filming a video in the bathroom fooling around with a handgun and the it just "went off"...twice...and killed both of them.

[Bogie]

Betcha the autopsy shows contact wounds. For both.

[MechAg94]

So I read an article today.  A 12 year old shot her 14 year old cousin and then shot herself.  The quote I read from a relative mentioned how it was a tragic accident...they were just filming a video in the bathroom fooling around with a handgun and the it just "went off"...twice...and killed both of them.

The video is out there.  I saw it come across Instagram.

[Hawkmoon]

It aint the guns causing the problems, so maybe "we" should stop talking about guns and start talking about the real cause.

But "we" won't.

There are two bills before my state's legislature right now, one each from the House and the Senate, looking to create new offices in the state government to study "gun violence" and to funnel money to groups working to reduce "gun violence." My written comments to the committee hearing these bills is that "gun" violence is just violence committed with a gun, and why isn't the legislative focus on reducing violence rather than trying to further burden a constitutional right?

They'll ignore me, of course, but that's nothing new.