Author Topic: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now  (Read 5298 times)

makattak

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I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« on: January 31, 2017, 11:26:34 AM »
...BEFORE my son was of proper age and I was again invested in this once great institution.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/us/boy-scouts-reversing-century-old-stance-will-allow-transgender-boys.html?smid=pl-share

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“For more than 100 years, the Boy Scouts of America, along with schools, youth sports and other youth organizations, have ultimately deferred to the information on an individual’s birth certificate to determine eligibility for our single-gender programs,” the group said in a statement on its website. “However, that approach is no longer sufficient as communities and state laws are interpreting gender identity differently, and these laws vary widely from state to state.”

BSA is getting all aboard the crazy train. The gay scouts were only one step. (Followed swiftly by gay leaders.) They have a few more to get to the level of Girl Scout craziness, but it looks like the executives are working overtime to try to catch up.

In any case, thanks for making the decision of this former Eagle Scout easy concerning my own son.

I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Scout26

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2017, 12:28:50 PM »
It's not that the BSA wants to do this.  But with new anti-discrimination laws, the BSA has been fighting losing battles in court.   And when a judge after judge says "Let 'em in."  The BSA has no choice.   The BSA has a big bullseye painted on it's back by the SJW's, and have been subject to Lawfare for several years now, on just about every SJW hot-button quest.  There's only so much money they can shovel to lawyers, before you start spending all you income on them.

Same with the newer, nerfier, touchie-feelie rules.   Again, most are caused by lawyers.  The running joke is, "I wonder which soccer mom sued the BSA to get THAT rule included in the Guide to Safe Scouting ??"

Another reason I want my son to finish his Eagle Project, so he can move onto Venturing, where the rules are much more relaxed. 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

makattak

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2017, 01:52:52 PM »
It's not that the BSA wants to do this.  But with new anti-discrimination laws, the BSA has been fighting losing battles in court.   And when a judge after judge says "Let 'em in."  The BSA has no choice.   The BSA has a big bullseye painted on it's back by the SJW's, and have been subject to Lawfare for several years now, on just about every SJW hot-button quest.  There's only so much money they can shovel to lawyers, before you start spending all you income on them.

Same with the newer, nerfier, touchie-feelie rules.   Again, most are caused by lawyers.  The running joke is, "I wonder which soccer mom sued the BSA to get THAT rule included in the Guide to Safe Scouting ??"

Another reason I want my son to finish his Eagle Project, so he can move onto Venturing, where the rules are much more relaxed. 

Given how proud the board members and executives are of ending the ban on homosexual scouts and leaders, I'm unconvinced "the boy scouts" didn't want this. The grass roots very likely do not, but clearly the leadership does.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Firethorn

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2017, 01:55:51 PM »
Given how proud the board members and executives are of ending the ban on homosexual scouts and leaders, I'm unconvinced "the boy scouts" didn't want this. The grass roots very likely do not, but clearly the leadership does.

I can say that when I was a scout, directives from top management were often ignored - in both directions.  Some troops are a lot more accepting than others.

slugcatcher

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2017, 01:57:57 PM »
The BSA is following the lead of GSA on morality.

Hawkmoon

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2017, 02:13:22 PM »
The BSA is following the lead of GSA on morality.

That would be in the direction of away from? (Mprality, that is.)
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Scout26

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 02:17:04 PM »
I would like to point out that each Chartering Organization can choose whether to allow LBGTQWTFBBQ scouts and adult leaders into their units.  I bet that policy extends to this policy. 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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Sweet memories to drive us on,
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T.O.M.

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 02:29:49 PM »
I would like to point out that each Chartering Organization can choose whether to allow LBGTQWTFBBQ scouts and adult leaders into their units.  I bet that policy extends to this policy. 

Agreed.  I was just talking with a Scout exec who has stepped into a couple of situations where gay daddy wanted his son to join a Cub Pack and become a leader, and they said no to him being a leader.  His job was to avoid the lawsuit by helping daddy find a new unit to join.

Wanna know what's next?  Co-ed.  There are already a couple of pending suits (California) where girls want to be Boy Scouts.  Discrimination based on gender.  Used to say that they had Girl Scouts or Venturing as an option.  Girls have smarter lawyers, and are arguing that it isn't equal, as even a Venturing female Scout cannot earn Eagle, which still carries some weight in the world.  The Scout exec I spoke with indicated that there have been some very quiet meetings between BSA and GSA about just becoming American Scouting.  Big holdup right now seems to be, of all things, a disagreement on how cookies would be handled.

I enjoy my Scout time, but as soon as my Troop becomes co-ed, I'm retiring.  I don't want to have to stay up at night to keep boys and girls from sneaking around each other.
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makattak

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2017, 03:06:59 PM »
I would like to point out that each Chartering Organization can choose whether to allow LBGTQWTFBBQ scouts and adult leaders into their units.  I bet that policy extends to this policy.  

First of all, that's a cop-out, and cowards run the BSA. Tucking tail and folding is completely against everything I learned while a scout. (Note: that's assuming they aren't fully in favor of these policy changes, which I seriously doubt.)

Secondly, for how long will that remain? The BSA has already indicated its intended policy is to fold before lawsuits. Just how long until it's no longer a choice?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Firethorn

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2017, 03:35:00 PM »
Big holdup right now seems to be, of all things, a disagreement on how cookies would be handled.

Girl scout cookies is a deadly serious business.

HankB

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2017, 03:51:04 PM »
Girl scout cookies is a deadly serious business.
Yep.

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wmenorr67

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2017, 04:27:56 PM »
Agreed.  I was just talking with a Scout exec who has stepped into a couple of situations where gay daddy wanted his son to join a Cub Pack and become a leader, and they said no to him being a leader.  His job was to avoid the lawsuit by helping daddy find a new unit to join.

Wanna know what's next?  Co-ed.  There are already a couple of pending suits (California) where girls want to be Boy Scouts.  Discrimination based on gender.  Used to say that they had Girl Scouts or Venturing as an option.  Girls have smarter lawyers, and are arguing that it isn't equal, as even a Venturing female Scout cannot earn Eagle, which still carries some weight in the world.  The Scout exec I spoke with indicated that there have been some very quiet meetings between BSA and GSA about just becoming American Scouting.  Big holdup right now seems to be, of all things, a disagreement on how cookies would be handled.

I enjoy my Scout time, but as soon as my Troop becomes co-ed, I'm retiring.  I don't want to have to stay up at night to keep boys and girls from sneaking around each other.

That is where the GSA hasn't marketed their Gold Award being the equivalent of the BSA Eagle Scout Award.
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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2017, 06:34:13 PM »
I lost my respect for the BSA (I was a Boy Scout) when, as an adult, I was invited to a local Troop's camp out to teach survival skills.  At each step, the scouts were encouraged to fail by the leaders.  "You're supposed to achieve (objective A) but if you just try, you'll get your merit badge."  I was invited back later but declined.

Tuco

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2017, 07:53:06 PM »
.... meetings between BSA and GSA about just becoming American Scouting.  Big holdup right now seems to be, of all things, a disagreement on how cookies would be handled.

You have got to be kidding me.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2017, 08:12:57 PM »
What is that whirling sound from off in the distance?

Probably Lord Baden-Powell doing about 300 rpm in his grave.


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Hawkmoon

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2017, 09:29:41 PM »
I lost my respect for the BSA (I was a Boy Scout) when, as an adult, I was invited to a local Troop's camp out to teach survival skills.  At each step, the scouts were encouraged to fail by the leaders.  "You're supposed to achieve (objective A) but if you just try, you'll get your merit badge."  I was invited back later but declined.

I lost my respect for the Boy Scouts when I was 15 or 16 years old. At that age, in the summers I was an assistant sailing instructor in Maine, in the town where my grandparents lived. The chief instructor was an Englishman who had sailed solo around the world. In addition to sailing, he also made sure we knew and were teaching marlinspike seamanship -- knot tying and rope splicing.

So I got back home in the winter and went for my knot tying merit badge -- and they failed me on the ***ing Bowline because I tied it with one hand rather than using their pedantic, two-handed, "the rabbit comes out of the hole, runs around the tree, and goes back in the hole" method. Same knot, but mine was done befiore the scout leader got his rabbit out of the hole.

That was it for me. I have a very low tolerance threshold for idiocy.
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gunsmith

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2017, 09:48:49 PM »
I lost my respect for the Boy Scouts when I was 15 or 16 years old. At that age, in the summers I was an assistant sailing instructor in Maine, in the town where my grandparents lived. The chief instructor was an Englishman who had sailed solo around the world. In addition to sailing, he also made sure we knew and were teaching marlinspike seamanship -- knot tying and rope splicing.

So I got back home in the winter and went for my knot tying merit badge -- and they failed me on the ***ing Bowline because I tied it with one hand rather than using their pedantic, two-handed, "the rabbit comes out of the hole, runs around the tree, and goes back in the hole" method. Same knot, but mine was done befiore the scout leader got his rabbit out of the hole.

That was it for me. I have a very low tolerance threshold for idiocy.

I do not recall a knot tying merit badge, maybe they were giving you a hard time for being new, I hiked 5 miles one time in search of a "skyhook"
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Scout26

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2017, 11:42:39 PM »
First of all, that's a cop-out, and cowards run the BSA. Tucking tail and folding is completely against everything I learned while a scout. (Note: that's assuming they aren't fully in favor of these policy changes, which I seriously doubt.)

Secondly, for how long will that remain? The BSA has already indicated its intended policy is to fold before lawsuits. Just how long until it's no longer a choice?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies#Litigation_regarding_access_to_governmental_resources

And those are just some of the bigger lawsuits.   Again, every leftie group has been engaged in lawfare against the BSA.  Remember what was happening to Gun manufacturers before the Lawful protect of Firearms in Commerce Act?   Most times, the Bloomberg-backed groups did really not care if they won or lost, just making the various manufacturers spend money on defending themselves in court was a victory.  Death by 1,000 cuts.

And you may not want to hear it, but the country has changed.   The vast majority has a "live and let live" attitude with regards to homosexuality.   

Quote
In March 2013, the BSA invited its members to take an online survey about the LGBT ban. The survey asked multiple questions, one of which explored the role of gay youth in Scouting:

    Tom started in the program as a Tiger Cub, and finished every requirement for the Eagle Scout Award at 16 years of age. At his board of review Tom reveals that he is gay. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for the review board to deny his Eagle Scout award based on that admission?"

Accord to results released by the BSA, 78% of parents felt it was unacceptable to deny the Scout his Eagle award simply because of his orientation, while only 18% felt it was acceptable. Teens and Scouting Alumni who completed the survey responded similarly
 

And those numbers track with the rest of the Nation.

Plus look at the list of corporations, their foundations, and other non-profits that have pulled their funding.   I heard that our council used to routinely raise $500k-$700K a year just in Corporate and Non-Profit giving.  Last year we struggled to raise $125k.   Part of that may be the economy, but instead of donations simply getting smaller, they have disappeared altogether.  And often the stated reason is the gay issue.

So it's really hard to stand on principle when you can't pay your lawyer to defend you in court.  You can either have a program or string of lawyers on retainer.

And all that is BEFORE little Timmy cuts himself with his dull pocket knife at summer camp, Soccer-Mommy wigs out while calling her lawyer.

And I know that the Chicago area Council sold their Summer camp out near Yorkville to pay off lawyers and legal claims from the molestation cases of the late 90's, early 2000's when that *expletive deleted*it came out.    Corporate sponsors ran like cockroaches in a kitchen when you hit the light switches...

Makattack,since you are an Eagle.  Why don't you go to your local troop, and talk to them.  The program really needs Former Scouts, especially Eagles to uphold the standards and set the example.   Again each chartering org sets their rules regarding gay and transgender.  You can easily find ones that don't allow either as a matter of principle.



I lost my respect for the BSA (I was a Boy Scout) when, as an adult, I was invited to a local Troop's camp out to teach survival skills.  At each step, the scouts were encouraged to fail by the leaders.  "You're supposed to achieve (objective A) but if you just try, you'll get your merit badge."  I was invited back later but declined.

I agree that's bullshit.   The requirement is to complete whatever the requirement states.   "Close Enough" ain't.   We are sticklers for doing what the book says.  So our boys know when they earn it, they've achieved something.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

RevDisk

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2017, 11:05:33 AM »

Ayep. BSA was lawyered to death. It just doesn't know it yet. Attendance is generally dropping, ditto funding. It'll be dead in 20 years, most likely.

Couple things it could have done to prevent it.

- Had a molestation policy before the scandal hit. Make mandatory reporting very clear. Immediately sue the offenders. Keep suing annually to send a message. I'm sure at least ONE lawyer in the country hates kid touchers and would be happy to help for a moderate fee. Help the victims, blast the offender in every way possible. Publicly loudly, etc.
- Had a handle on the gay issue BEFORE it became a big thing. Leave it up to the individual troop. National policy was no-policy. If you dislike the stance, help the locals create a different troop.
- Probably should do the same with co-ed troops. Or Trans. Officially no-policy, leave it up to the individual troops. Try to put a legal firewall in place between local troops and any other organizations.
- Have a legal disclaimer a mile thick, and ALWAYS counter-sue Little Johny's soccer mom if she sues over a nick he got at summer camp. Be sure to let all the local troops know that Ms Soccer Mom is trying to gut the local troops like a trout. If they want to chip in $5 for suing Soccer Mom, here's the legal defense fund for Troop #xyz
- Make and keep scouting interesting. Continuously.

Respectfully, BSA has been shooting themselves in the foot for way too long by not having any kind of strategic management. They could have tried to get the equivalent of LPFCA. They could have set up troops for every single special snowflake that was guaranteed to die in short order anyways.
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makattak

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 11:12:43 AM »
Makattack,since you are an Eagle.  Why don't you go to your local troop, and talk to them.  The program really needs Former Scouts, especially Eagles to uphold the standards and set the example.   Again each chartering org sets their rules regarding gay and transgender.  You can easily find ones that don't allow either as a matter of principle.

I'm sorry, but I can't. The organization has given up reason and I will no longer support them in any way.

The breaking of the scout oath (in which the words "morally straight" have become extremely ironic) is enough. But beyond that (as many will say "but morals have changed!") it's the abandonment of the purpose of dividing the sexes.

If it's illogical to mix boys and girls (for reasons of sex and distraction), the same holds true for boys who want to sleep with other boys. It's not a matter of girls or boys being different or learning differently or having different interests- MANY girls are interested in the sort of things Boys Scouts (once) did.

It's about removing distractions and allowing for the camaraderie of boys, outside of at least one societal pressure (a pressure that has done nothing but grow in the time since the Scouts were founded.)

It's about an organization that is so short-sighted that it bends to the winds of culture rather than being a force to shape it. I will, instead, spend my energies toward one of the splinter organizations that has committed to resisting the culture.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

wmenorr67

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2017, 03:14:41 PM »
Why don't you here about Campfire anymore.  They started out as mostly if not all girls and challenged the GSA quite well in a lot places.  Then they morphed into both boys and girls, then all but has gone away.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

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KD5NRH

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2017, 03:48:48 PM »
The breaking of the scout oath (in which the words "morally straight" have become extremely ironic) is enough.

I think "mentally awake" also rules out anyone who denies the reality between their legs.

lupinus

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2017, 05:33:44 PM »
I started off as a tiger scout and stayed in into Boy Scouts. Took me a year or a little less to say the hell with this.

To much stupid for me to deal with. 


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gunsmith

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2017, 08:00:25 PM »
I stayed until life or star, whatever was the one before eagle - I would have gone all the way if not for BS at home.
( and girls ) ...
I learned a lot, very greatful for the experience but I can't see participating now, its gone to liberal.
I will not go camping without a firearm, I LOVED wearing my Buck knife while going to camping trips, we camped every month - winter/summer.
I hear its not ok to even wear a knife now.
Plus, we took showers together at pools, whats going to happen when the 13 year old trans girl is showering with the 13 yr old boys?
The horse play was enormous, mayhem and lawsuits.
I've often thought about why can't there be a scouting type org for kids without the bovine excrement
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T.O.M.

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Re: I'm so glad the BSA is pulling this crap now
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2017, 09:54:10 PM »
I just got home from our weekly Troop meeting.   35 Scouts. Planned meals for next campout (Feb. 10-12).  Then working on Communication merit badge.  As I was sitting listening to a 13 year old give a 5 minute speech about his grandfather, a thought crossed my mind.  I don't give a damn about national BSA leadership.   I'm helping teach important life skills to a bunch of young men.  Skills schools don't teach. Skills they can't get too many places anymore.  And I'm having a good time doing it. So who gives a crap what some committee in Dallas says.  I'm going to keep doing this the way I was taught, with a healthy disregard for the rules.  Yes,M my Scouts carry fixed blade knives. Yes they shoot guns not on the BSA approved list. Yes, they are becoming self reliant young men.  Screw the politics.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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