Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Perd Hapley on September 07, 2014, 11:43:49 AM
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The nationalists are enjoying a near parity in polling. Could the Union be on its way out?
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-independence-poll-puts-yes-in-lead-1-3533686
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Time to buy stock in Claymores and blue face paint?
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Time to buy stock in Claymores and blue face paint?
And haggis! Don't fergit the haggis!!!
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Time to buy stock in Claymores and blue face paint?
Brace yourself, here come a bunch of stupid Mel Gibson as William Wallace meme pictures.
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And haggis! Don't fergit the haggis!!!
People don;t "stock up" on haggis. Haggis is "inflicted upon" them in volume.
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People don;t "stock up" on haggis. Haggis is "inflicted upon" them in volume.
I wish someone would inflict haggis upon me. I love the stuff.
Chris
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I wish someone would inflict haggis upon me. I love the stuff.
Chris
Haggis is the bomb, even the version allowed in the US. There used to be a great Scottish restaurant in your neck of the woods that an ex girlfriend would always take me to. I can't for the life of me remember exactly where, but we'd take whatever metro color went past the Pentagon and then dead-ended, then we'd walk about a half mile. The old Scottish guy that owned it did the full kilt getup and everything. Small place, but excellent haggis, and everything else.
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Obviously, I'm opposed to independence. Nationalists, of course, are necessarily racists, and secession is always racist, so...
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The whole process has been a bit of a farce from the beginning (an English family member of mine is eligible to vote because of his temporary residence in Edinburgh, none of the eight or nine Scots I know are because they live in London), so it wouldnt really be a surprise if Salmond wins and then has to oversee living conditions for those north of the border go a long way downhill in a very short space of time - but they will all keep their British passports, as well as the pound.
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Haggis is the bomb, even the version allowed in the US. There used to be a great Scottish restaurant in your neck of the woods that an ex girlfriend would always take me to. I can't for the life of me remember exactly where, but we'd take whatever metro color went past the Pentagon and then dead-ended, then we'd walk about a half mile. The old Scottish guy that owned it did the full kilt getup and everything. Small place, but excellent haggis, and everything else.
I think I know of which one you're talking about, but I've never been there.
Chris
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I would think next Thursday would be a better day for a vote.
jim
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According to my coworker (a recent Scottish immigrant) he says its unlikely. Polls go one way, voting another.
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The sun never sets on all the places the British Empire has been thrown out of.
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The sun never sets on all the places the British Empire has been thrown out of.
True.
Of course, the sun never sets on the United States or its territories right now.
(And like a few months of the year doesn't set on the 50 states either)
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NATO seems to be concerned about it. Apparently Faslane is where Trident subs are serviced and the Scottish Nationalist party wants Scotland to be Nuke free.
But they want to be Nuke Free members of NATO. F' em; no nukes, no nuclear protection.
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NATO seems to be concerned about it. Apparently Faslane is where Trident subs are serviced and the Scottish Nationalist party wants Scotland to be Nuke free.
But they want to be Nuke Free members of NATO. F' em; no nukes, no nuclear protection.
I'm sure there's a suitable English port somewhere that wouldn't mind the extra business...
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Sadly, I doubt it will pass, or work if it did.
I fear that all the "Freedom!" Scots have left long ago ... =|
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Sadly, I doubt it will pass, or work if it did.
I fear that all the "Freedom!" Scots have left long ago ... =|
True enough. It seems Europe experienced more than just a brain drain in the last couple of centuries.
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http://mashable.com/2014/09/13/groundskeeper-willie-scotland-independence/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link
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Sadly, I doubt it will pass, or work if it did.
I fear that all the "Freedom!" Scots have left long ago ... =|
They never existed.
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They never existed.
They became the Scots-Irish people that immigrated to the US. The Scots-Irish people of the US are where we get our pervasive "you ain't the boss of me" mentality.
Chris
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They became the Scots-Irish people that immigrated to the US. The Scots-Irish people of the US are where we get our pervasive "you ain't the boss of me" mentality.
Chris
They never existed.
Like Mtnbkr said, they colonized Ireland then the United States, getting as far as Arkansas and texas
My ancestors killed a lot of Indians and Redcoats
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They became the Scots-Irish people that immigrated to the US. The Scots-Irish people of the US are where we get our pervasive "you ain't the boss of me" mentality.
Chris
I think that is a clear case of projection - its very hard to find any evidence of the Scots fighting for independence once James IV became the King of England; most of the revolts were over who was ruling England or the UK (as in the campaigns in the 17th century, and the 1715 and '45). The Irish on the other hand had a few goes at it, but even there its questionable whether "freedom" was more of a goal than just getting rid of the English and their religious discrimination.
Like Mtnbkr said, they colonized Ireland then the United States, getting as far as Arkansas and texas
My ancestors killed a lot of Indians and Redcoats
So not that freedom-loving, then.
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I think that is a clear case of projection - its very hard to find any evidence of the Scots fighting for independence once James IV became the King of England; most of the revolts were over who was ruling England or the UK (as in the campaigns in the 17th century, and the 1715 and '45). The Irish on the other hand had a few goes at it, but even there its questionable whether "freedom" was more of a goal than just getting rid of the English and their religious discrimination.
I don't know what those people were like before leaving Britain, but they were certainly interested in living a life not being told what to do by others by the time they hit America.
Maybe not "freedom loving" in the vein of wanting everyone to have their own nation, but certainly very much interested in not being told what to do by others. Whether or not that's "freedom loving" depends on your point of view (and whether or not you're being told to eff off or telling someone to eff off).
Like Mtnbkr said, they colonized Ireland then the United States, getting as far as Arkansas and texas
My ancestors killed a lot of Indians and Redcoats
So not that freedom-loving, then.
Not so much the Indian killing, that's plain ol' murder, but certainly killing Redcoats in the late 1700s counts as freedom-loving. Again, depends on if you're being told to eff off or are doing the telling. :)
My ancestors were likely mixing with Indians (based on family movements up till the early 20th century) when they weren't killing Redcoats (if they did the latter at all, our records back that far are hazy).
Chris
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I think that is a clear case of projection - its very hard to find any evidence of the Scots fighting for independence once James IV became the King of England; most of the revolts were over who was ruling England or the UK (as in the campaigns in the 17th century, and the 1715 and '45). The Irish on the other hand had a few goes at it, but even there its questionable whether "freedom" was more of a goal than just getting rid of the English and their religious discrimination.
So not that freedom-loving, then.
Given how the Irish gov't loves it some EU domination, I would say that the Irish don't mind being dominated and ruled by foreign bastards. What they minded was being dominated by English bastards.
We may get to see if the Scots are made of similar domitable stuff.
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Wasn't there a British guy at the time that said that the American Revolution was nothing but a Scots-Irish revolt ???
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Maybe not "freedom loving" in the vein of wanting everyone to have their own nation, but certainly very much interested in not being told what to do by others. Whether or not that's "freedom loving" depends on your point of view (and whether or not you're being told to eff off or telling someone to eff off).
Surely thats much more of an English trait than it is a Scots or an Irish one, though?
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Surely thats much more of an English trait than it is a Scots or an Irish one, though?
Britons or Anglo-Saxons ???
There was Boudicca and the Icenians :cool:
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Britons or Anglo-Saxons ???
There was Boudicca and the Icenians :cool:
Specifically English, or Anglo-Saxon if you like.
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Surely thats much more of an English trait than it is a Scots or an Irish one, though?
I'm sure there are freedom-loving people in England proper, but it is the Scots-Irish (Ulster Scots) that are associated with extremes of that mentality in the US. This is borne out by historical writings from various parts of our history.
Chris
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I think that is a clear case of projection - its very hard to find any evidence of the Scots fighting for independence once James IV became the King of England...
Do you mean James VI?
Not so much the Indian killing, that's plain ol' murder...
Well, no, killing an Indian is not plain ol' murder...
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http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/7302
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Specifically English, or Anglo-Saxon if you like.
The Teutonic tribes seem to have a taste for discipline and order, unlike the Britons, Scots, Irish, etc.
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My brother and Great-Aunt have done quite a bit of research on my paternial forebearers and it appears that quite a few of them seemed to have taken personal umbrage at the English mucking around in Ireland and thereby earned themselves a one-way ticket to Austrailia.
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My brother and Great-Aunt have done quite a bit of research on my paternial forebearers and it appears that quite a few of them seemed to have taken personal umbrage at the English mucking around in Ireland and thereby earned themselves a one-way ticket to Austrailia.
Ah, yes. I knew your people, Sean. Your grandfather, he died in Australia, in a penal colony. And your father, he was a good man too.
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Although there are a few hours left to count the ballots, the initial results are consistent with the recent polling: independence is being voted down. Estimates are that the 'No' vote rejecting independence will end up with around 53-55% of the total vote. I will be interested to see the final numbers tomorrow.
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BBC is calling it a No, with a 55/45 no vote as of 3 minutes ago.
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One analysis I heard of the independence movement was that it was mostly a far left push to more or less establish a welfare state funded primarily by North Sea oil revenue.
Any one else hear same or different?
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One analysis I heard of the independence movement was that it was mostly a far left push to more or less establish a welfare state funded primarily by North Sea oil revenue.
Any one else hear same or different?
That jibes with what I've been reading about this. I.e., the Scots are a bunch of socialist bums, and Scottish independence would leave the UK a more conservative polity.
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So not that freedom-loving, then.
Trust me when I say the irony is not lost on me.
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An English co-worker was telling us on a conf. call this AM how Scotland is way over the "tipping point", that 55% of the employment/economy is .gov or tax-based in some manner. Teachers, military, police, government clerks etc. Funny how that aligned with the vote.
He was wistful that it could have meant England could stop subsidizing them, however he agreed fully when I pointed out it probably saved England money in the long run, as the current rate of subsidy is probably cheaper than having a failed state with shared infrastructure and open borders that England would have to just bail out at more expense later.
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Given how the Irish gov't loves it some EU domination, I would say that the Irish don't mind being dominated and ruled by foreign bastards. What they minded was being dominated by English bastards.
We may get to see if the Scots are made of similar domitable stuff.
None of the UK post-world wars can be compared to what came before. Entire generations of manhood were thrown into the meat grinders twice in short order, and they've never recovered.
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One analysis I heard of the independence movement was that it was mostly a far left push to more or less establish a welfare state funded primarily by North Sea oil revenue.
Any one else hear same or different?
I was sort of vaguely in favor of the secession movement at first, just because I'm in favor of the idea of secession and would like to see it spread and become common place in the Western world.
But when I actually started seeing the arguments the Yes people were putting forward, I lost any sympathy. Bunch of whiny pacifist anti-nuke hippy BS.
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It will be interesting to see what additional powers Westminster will be granting to Scotland. They already have a legal, healthcare and educational system separate and distinct from the rest of the UK. I once looked into how I could qualify for the Scottish Bar, and it turned out that the best way would be to qualify as a solicitor into England via the Qualified Lawyers Transfer Scheme and then take the UK transfer test from the Scottish Law Society to be admitted in Scotland.
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One analysis I heard of the independence movement was that it was mostly a far left push to more or less establish a welfare state funded primarily by North Sea oil revenue.
Any one else hear same or different?
Not really. The Yes campaign (and the SNP itself, come to think of it) were a load of disparate groups whose sole common policy was for an independent Scotland - they did come out with a lot of socialist type stuff, but that was probably at least as much about attracting the Labour vote (which is still the biggest in the country, and which has grown accustomed to being bought off) as it was a representation of the actual opinions of the SNP. For all his many faults, Salmond is not a fool and he would have known that, had they won last night, there was no way even with all the North Sea Oil that they would have been able to even sustain the status quo.
IMHO a far greater handicap that they faced was that the Yes position isnt really based on any historical justification; Scotland didnt become part of the UK because it was occupied by the English, and it has done very well out of the Union - arguably even more than the English have. I think that deep down, most Scots understand this.
What will be important now is not what the Scottish Parliament gets, but what the rest end up with. There is already talk of an English Parliament (probably just composing the MPs for English constituencies, voting only on matters that just affects England), and more powers for Wales (which will be interesting to say the least, given that for every year that the Senedd is in existence the division between North and South Wales becomes more and more apparent - if we ever went independent, there would probably be two Waleses within a generation).
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You can do a lot of agitating with 45% of a population. That's a huge constituency that can seek out a lot of rent or favors.
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I wonder how a public vote for independence would have gone in the American Colonies in 1776 ???
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I wonder how a public vote for independence would have gone in the American Colonies in 1776 ???
Most would have stuck with the status quo out of fear of reprisal from England.
Once the founders decided a nation of laws was preferable to monarchy or pure democracy the die was cast.
In hindsight what an incredibly remarkable turn of events in human history. The dawn of the era of natural/God given human rights.
It seems to me we might be in the twilight of the era of human rights. Now that the foundational concept of inalienable rights has been rejected by the ruling elites as well as the masses it is only a slow march backward to subjugation.
Not many who believe in inalienable rights can articulate why they believe such a thing and are doomed to give their rights up in exchange for a 'mess of pottage'. Seems everyone has their price.
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None of the UK post-world wars can be compared to what came before. Entire generations of manhood were thrown into the meat grinders twice in short order, and they've never recovered.
Huh?
British casualties in the Second World War constituted 383,000 soldiers and 67,000 civilians, less than 1% of the population.
They nowhere near approached the scale of slaughter of the First World War, or the scale of casualties soaked up by the populations of other combatants. (France has lost 550,000 civilians and soldiers, Greece lost 340-820,000, etc.).
The problems Western civilization as a whole is suffering from (also replicated in far greater form in continental Europe, Australia, and Canada, and to a lesser extent in the US) are a cultural issue, not a demographic one.
For comparison's sake,
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It seems to me we might be in the twilight of the era of human rights. Now that the foundational concept of inalienable rights has been rejected by the ruling elites as well as the masses it is only a slow march backward to subjugation.
This, sadly, is how I see things progressing.
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Saorsa
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Saorsa
no bà s! =D