Author Topic: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???  (Read 12161 times)

Ex-MA Hole

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Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« on: December 20, 2007, 07:49:30 AM »
Howdy y'all-

I'm looking for input.  I want the new Walther PPS.  I have dreams of the new Walther PPS.  I've held one, and it fits nicely in my hand....

That said, it's around $600.00.  A buddy of mine suggested looking at Kahr's- they seems to be closer to 7 or 800....I'm going to shoot one or two tonight...

Then, I noticed that Kel-tec has two 9mm, one a single stack....anyone shoot one of these?

Purpose of said gun?  Pocket carry AND IDPA.

Right now I have a 642 that is with me when I have pants on.  I run B.U.G. matches at my club, so I get trigger time with the 642.

I'm a pretty good shot with it, too.

That said, reloading it takes a bit.  And, well, I'd like to compete with my carry gun.  I've tried to IWB the P99, it is bulky and cumbersome.

I don't really like it hanging on my waist, and I'm looking for another pocket gun...

Input?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2007, 07:51:05 AM »
Look at the HK P7, too. I'm wanting one.

Safest design ever. Squeeze the grip, it's cocked. Let go, it's uncocked.

Nice.


Ex-MA Hole

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2007, 07:54:43 AM »
What's the price point?

My goal is to be closer to the $500 range.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2007, 08:06:31 AM »
The HK is going to be at least $700, probably more depending on condition.  I didn't like shooting it.  I don't consider Kel-Tecs to have the sort of durability handle competition.  That leaves the Walther and the Kahr.  I had problems with the Kahr K9 I owned.  Kahr couldn't fix it, couldn't even identify the problem.  They replaced it and I sold the replacement unfired.  Sorry if this isn't much help.

Chris

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2007, 08:11:53 AM »
No, that's what I'm looking for.

My P99 is polymer, but it feels solid.

I have a KEl-tec sub2, and it shoots AWESOME, but it feels cheap....I know what you mean....
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AJ Dual

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2007, 08:14:39 AM »
CDNN has P7's starting $599, but they're Euro-style heel-base magazine catches rather than American style trigger guard buttons. Presumably W-German police trade-ins. Finding an American button-style P7 in good shape, much less NIB, it'll be close to pushing four figures and blowing your budget. And I don't think they'll have the heat shield for the gas retarding/locking piston that the American market demanded for heavy range use to keep trigger fingers cool.

CDNN also has the Kel-Tec PF9 for $229. It's kind of a crap-shoot quality wise, and I'll second that it may not be a gun that will stand up to frequent range and competition use, but Kel-Tec with their legendary customer service will keep trying to make it right if you have problems. And it's the smallest locked-breech 9mm auto out there IIRC, save for the Rourbaugh, so for many the minor gamble is worth it. And it's not as if the Kahr hasn't had it's share of problems and QC issues too.

It's hard to say, and there's not enough time on the market to make a truly informed opinion, but of the three, my gut tells me that if its going to see significant range and competition use, the PPS is the one you'll be happiest with in the long run. The Kel-Tec and the Kahr, at least anecdotally, have that "I'm for carry, and a little range familiarization only" vibe about them to me. Frankly all the super compact 9mm's have some issues, IMO, you're just skirting the bleeding edge of the materials performance envelope for 9mm and locked-breech designs, especially with flexible polymer frames thrown into the mix. And the PPS is really not a super-compact, but just a compact with a super-compact width profile. They made the slide quite tall to get the extra mass and locking inertia that slightly larger compacts like the G26, Xd, and M&P Compact enjoy.

On that note, I don't want to expand the selection, and I like sticking within the poster's original question, but you may want to expand your search to the Glock 26, and the S&W M&P Compacts, they're not that much bigger or thicker, and may be shorter, or not as tall as the PPS anyway, and one of them might work better for you.
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Ex-MA Hole

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2007, 08:18:50 AM »
I'm going to try a baby glock tonight, too- except it's a double stack, and I want a single stack, they are flatter....

I'll look at the M&P compacts, but, if my feeble memory serves me correctly, they are similar in size to the P99 Compact, and are double stack....I'll look though.

Thanks for the idea!

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AJ Dual

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2007, 08:28:48 AM »
Yeah, most people find width a bigger deal than height or length which is why so many makers keep going for the single-stack 9mm "brass ring", but the G26 is still quite small, but I've never heard of any reliability issues, mine certainly hasn't, and is just "big enough" to skirt the issues the other super-compacts might all have.

Besides the '68 GCA import point issues which would force them to invest in tooling and some manufacturing in the U.S., (The G26 is barely importable as-is with knock off plastic adjustable sights removed at the Smyrna GA facility, and the funny "target rest" thumb divots in the grip frame...)  I think the reliability envelope for super sub-compacts is why Glock hasn't yet pursued a single-stack compact 9mm, and may never do so. And how the PPS went for thinness, but is actually much taller and longer than many other single stack super compact 9mm's.

One other thing that may argue in favor of using the PPS in matches and games is the various factory magazines that extend the grip. They take it from sub-compact, to full-size in the grip area at least. A potentially useful feature when transitioning from carry to the range.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2007, 08:41:07 AM »
There's the Taurus MilPro series, too. Love my 745. Pocket .45 ACP.

Much better quality than the PF9, and much thinner than the Blocks.

Gewehr98

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2007, 08:49:11 AM »
I'm somewhat biased.

I have owned a Kahr K9 for about 8 years now, and I still find the design and simplicity top-notch.

The only gripe I have is that the finish on the slide has worn through from carry, but it started life as a Florida Department of Law Enforcement gun before I got it, so I only continued the process.

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wooderson

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2007, 08:55:26 AM »
My parents just gave me a G26 for Christmas (I know, right?) - but I've been following the PPS since I heard about it. In a hot climate, being a (very) casual dresser, I think the width of the 26 might be an issue for carry. But it feels awfully good in the hand (with the +2 extention a full grip or without wrapping my pinky under the mag like a revolver) and ought to be a fun one to shoot.

With the Walther you basically get S&W's excellent service on purchase - de facto lifetime warranty (Walther USA states 1 year but I've read of people with older P99s being serviced), they pick up the shipping, etc..
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atomd

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2007, 09:05:08 AM »
If you're looking for pocket carry, you better have some BIG pockets for most of those options listed here. The glock 26 is a maybe....if you have larger pockets you can swing it but it's still pretty darn thick. Because of the size and weight required by most for pocket carry, forget about the p7 (even though they are great) and forget about the m&p compact too. The Rourbaugh costs a fortune and isn't meant to be used for high volume shooting (the owner even says that in their promo video).

The pps is nice and slim which is great and it won't cost that much more than a glock 26. The only downside is that they are working out some bugs with it still since it's so new. More than a few people have had issues with the slide stop sticking mid magazine causing the slide to get locked back (you need tools to fix it so it's not field fixable). Kahr stuff is hit or miss from what I see. They are pricey and people complain about their warranty service a lot too. Keltec seems to be hit or miss too but everyone raves about how great their warranty service is. I'd go for the 26 or the keltec pf9. The 26 is a proven design and it works even though you look like you're trying to smuggle a brick in your pants pocket. The keltec is thinner .88" versus the 1.18" of the 26 and it's about 1/2 the price with a lifetime warranty and made in the US. I'm thinking about going with the 26 but there's so many other pistols on my to buy list at the moment so who knows.

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2007, 09:07:42 AM »
Manned- I want 9mm.
Gew- I honestly don't care that much about the finish.  It's a pocket gun.
Wooderson- The other advantage is that after having a P99 and a P22, all of the funky Walther controls are going to be second nature to me.
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HankB

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2007, 09:08:12 AM »
I had a Kahr P9 - horrible little gun, numerous problems . . . after two unsuccessful attempts to fix it, Kahr replaced it. I traded the unfired replacement for a Glock 26, which, while it isn't as neat a package, has the virtue of actually working exceptionally well.

Walther devotees seem to love their pistols with an almost religious fervor . . . but when I was shooting IDPA frequently, I noticed that P99s made an appearance, and then slowly faded away. Reliability issues - and you don't get a "do over" if your pistol jams. Also, Walther has a reputation for poor service . . . and no service at all once a given model is replaced with something newer.

Kel-Tecs seem to be about 50/50 - half work well, half don't. Though it doesn't bear directly on your quest for a 9mm, I've fired a buddy's P32 a bit; the pistol was reliable, but the "sights" were unusable - I was getting 18" groups at 25 yards, centered about two feet low and a foot and a half to the left.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2007, 09:08:26 AM »
Manned- I want 9mm.
Gew- I honestly don't care that much about the finish.  It's a pocket gun.
Wooderson- The other advantage is that after having a P99 and a P22, all of the funky Walther controls are going to be second nature to me.

I know. The Taurus MilPro PT111 is the same as my 745, but in 9mm. It's a bit smaller and more slender, even.


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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2007, 09:24:38 AM »
Walther devotees seem to love their pistols with an almost religious fervor . . . but when I was shooting IDPA frequently, I noticed that P99s made an appearance, and then slowly faded away. Reliability issues - and you don't get a "do over" if your pistol jams. Also, Walther has a reputation for poor service . . . and no service at all once a given model is replaced with something newer.

My friends say the same thing.  They hate them, I'm totally into Walthers.  I've done IDPA monthly, if not more, for the last three years, and I've seen one other P99.

As far as jams, mine has a a TON (well into the thousands) of ammo through it, nary a glitch.  FWIW, I am AWEFUL about cleaning it.  AWEFUL.  Why?  I like it when people with $2,000 competition guns jam.  They inevitably complain that it is dirty, and promptly clean it.  Mine gets cleaned once a year- every winter.
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Ex-MA Hole

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2007, 09:25:18 AM »
Maned thanks- I'll take a peek.
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Joe Demko

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2007, 09:33:36 AM »
I have a PF9.  Other than not liking 147 grain bullets, it's been good to go straight from the box.  With lighter bullets, it's been 100% dependable.  It's really light, thin and flat, too.  I pocket carry it in a DeSantis pocket holster with no difficulties.  I replaced the polymer magazine catch with an aftermarket steel part, but that is just because I'm a worrywart not because the polymer part was actually giving me any problems.
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MillCreek

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2007, 09:44:07 AM »
I am certainly quite happy with my stainless Taurus Mill Pro in 9 mm.  I keep sending Taurus helpful emails suggesting that they make a single stack 9 mm Mill Pro with the titanium slide.  This would likely be my perfect bicycling handgun: reliable, lightweight and corrosion resistant for our wet Seattle weather.  I actually currently carry a Taurus titanium 651 on the bicycle right now.

Although it is heavy, but stone cold reliable and easy to pocket carry, I still trust and carry my AMT 9 mm DA Backup, that I bought new back in the 1980's.  AMT could also have some QA issues, but mine has gone bang every time I have asked it to.  High Standard bought the tooling a couple of years ago, and the Backup is now on the market again.
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Ex-MA Hole

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2007, 09:44:58 AM »
Thanks for the input.  I think I may try to find one to play with.

(I appreaciate you changing the mag catch for no reason- I did the same thing on my Mossberg- I changed the plastic safety to a metal one, it just made me feel better about it)
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wooderson

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2007, 09:53:58 AM »
Does the 9mm MilPro come in DAO?

There are some interesting Taurii I'd like to look at, but most of them (like the 24/7 OSS) seem to only come in a decocker DA/SA configuration.
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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2007, 11:10:14 AM »
My Mill Pro is the 'second generation' model that came in a true DAO configuration, and you could pull the trigger again if you had a dud primer. 
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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HankB

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2007, 11:53:07 AM »
. . .  I'm totally into Walthers.  I've done IDPA monthly, if not more, for the last three years, and I've seen one other P99.

As far as jams, mine has a a TON (well into the thousands) of ammo through it, nary a glitch.  FWIW, I am AWEFUL about cleaning it.  AWEFUL.  Why?  I like it when people with $2,000 competition guns jam.  They inevitably complain that it is dirty, and promptly clean it.  Mine gets cleaned once a year- every winter.
I believe you . . . I've heard enough stories from Walther devotees to believe reliable Walthers really exist. But I've seen jammamatics, too. As for cleaning . . . a fellow IDPA-er has a P99, and after a couple of hundred rounds, he starts getting failures . . . AND his trigger pull starts getting incredibly heavy. (Shooting mostly WWB). He's a vet of the IDF, so I DO believe he knows how to maintain his guns . . . .

Last I saw him, he was happily using a BHP.

Personally, if a pistol won't go at least 500 rounds without cleaning or lubing . . . I don't want it.

(Hmmmm . . . maybe Walther has a Monday morning/Friday afternoon issue with the guns they make?)
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Ryan in Maine

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2007, 01:00:13 PM »
The only brand I'd consider for pocket carry and competition would be Kahr. I know Kahr's pop up on THR's for sale forum for under $600.

I would not use a Kel-Tec for competition. Don't have any experience with the Walther PPS. I think I have a magazine sitting around somewhere that reviewed it. I'll check what they got for accuracy.

Keep an eye on what Glock does with their Short Frame series too. A Glock 36 fits in most of my pants pockets. Imagine if they added the Short Frame design to that? Or are we only talking 9mm?

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Re: Odd comparason- Kahr 9mm, vs Walther PPS vs Keltec 9mm???
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2007, 05:15:47 PM »
No, that's what I'm looking for.

My P99 is polymer, but it feels solid.

I have a KEl-tec sub2, and it shoots AWESOME, but it feels cheap....I know what you mean....
You have a P99? /drool

I want one when I can carry. How do you like it? (And did you get the Walther or the S&W version?)