CATO Institute Sells Out RKBA

[Fitz]

Selling to a prohibited person or buying a firearm for a prohibited person is already against the law.

In fact, the BATFEIO-EIO can trace crime guns, starting with the Manufacturer of said firearm.


However, in most cases they and the DOJ pass on prosecuting those folks, and on the rare occasion they do prosecute, they cut asinine plea deals.   Like Dontray Mills, initially charged with 55 counts of gun trafficking. 

 
 

Dontray mills

Lemme guess


White NRA member

[TommyGunn]

Cool story bro.  If 100 percent of America reads unintended consequences and half of those agree, this might be a reasonable way to deal with gun laws.  Last I checked sales were a bit lower though.

After 20+ years I'd be surprised if there was ANY significant sales of Unintended Consequences.  And I hardly think an assassination spree is a "reasonable" way to deal with gun laws no matter what per cent of the readers agreed.   

[RoadKingLarry]

I'm not familiar with the book but what I was talking about had nothing to do with assassination sprees or vigilantism.

[Perd Hapley]

Cool story bro.  If 100 percent of America reads unintended consequences and half of those agree, this might be a reasonable way to deal with gun laws.  Last I checked sales were a bit lower though.

Cool response, bro. In point of fact, gun rights activists have been making a lot of headway into mainstream culture in the past decade or two. (Whether Mr. Ross's enchiridion had anything to do with it, I couldn't say.) Road King Larry seems to be on to something.


Oh, say:
http://thefederalist.com/2016/10/26/american-support-assault-weapons-ban-hits-record-low/

[De Selby]

Cool response, bro. In point of fact, gun rights activists have been making a lot of headway into mainstream culture in the past decade or two. (Whether Mr. Ross's enchiridion had anything to do with it, I couldn't say.) Road King Larry seems to be on to something.


Oh, say:
http://thefederalist.com/2016/10/26/american-support-assault-weapons-ban-hits-record-low/

Yep, support for red tape is generally low.  So why not capitalise on that to get rid of it?

[De Selby]

What he said.  Honestly, if you don't see centralized control (by...wait for it...some sort of authority) and licensing (which requires permission...from an authority) to be authoritarian...regardless of convenience...then I think you must have an odd definition of "authoritarian".

Centralising it as compared to now, where it is BOTH federally regulated and state regulated is worse how???

The Feds already track every gun out the door of its source dealer, and already know if you own guns.  They also impose a plethora of rules on what you can and can't do with your guns.  It is completely silly to argue that avoiding a nationally consistent scheme is necessary to prevent centralised power over guns.  It's already there.

[De Selby]

Selling to a prohibited person or buying a firearm for a prohibited person is already against the law.

In fact, the BATFEIO-EIO can trace crime guns, starting with the Manufacturer of said firearm.


However, in most cases they and the DOJ pass on prosecuting those folks, and on the rare occasion they do prosecute, they cut asinine plea deals.   Like Dontray Mills, initially charged with 55 counts of gun trafficking. 

 
 

I don't see how this example in any way refutes the point I'm making.

[Hawkmoon]

Yep, support for red tape is generally low.  So why not capitalise on that to get rid of it?

Instituting federal red tape that would apply to EVERY firearm purchase by EVERY person* in EVERY state in exchange for a piecemeal system of state red tape that affects some people in most states and all people in only a few states hardly qualifies as "getting rid of it."




* Except the criminals, who happen to be the people we don't want to have guns.

[Scout26]

I don't see how this example in any way refutes the point I'm making.

And this is part you don't get.  The criminals are already breaking the law (They had this guy dead to rights, could have put him a away for a long, long, long time.  Which would have sent a signal to anyone else.  That whole Pour Encourager le Autres which TPTB don't seem to grasp.  All you have to do go back and look at what happened in Richmond VA with Project Exile.  Every crime involving a gun, every felon in possession became a federal case with a mandatory minimum of 5 years in FPMITA prison.

Project Exile was widely praised after its first year's results were released.[10][11][12]

Within the first year (1997-1998) Project Exile resulted in:[2]

    372 persons indicted for Federal gun violations.
    440 illegally possessed guns seized.
    300 persons arrested or held in State custody.
    222 arrestees (more than 74 percent) held without bond.
    247 persons convicted.
    196 persons sentenced to an average of 55 months of imprisonment.

During the first year of Project Exile (1998), homicides in Richmond declined 33%, for the lowest number since 1987, and armed robberies declined 30%. In 1999, homicides declined another 21%.[2] By 2007, homicides in Richmond were down to 57 compared to 122 in the year before Project Exile.[4]

Research analysts offered different opinions as to the program's success in reducing gun crime. Authors of a 2003 analysis of the program argued that the decline in gun homicide was part of a general regression to the mean across U.S. cities with high homicide rates.[13] Authors of a 2005 study disagreed, concluding that Richmond's gun homicide rate fell more rapidly than the rates in other large U.S. cities with other influences controlled.[14]

From wikipedia.

Simple enforcement of existing laws do more to make communities safer then your magic card scheme.  I'm sure I'm already on enough .gov lists (at both the state and Federal level), however I don't them to have a list of me buying guns.  (not like the ISP wouldn't share it with them....)

[De Selby]

And this is part you don't get.  The criminals are already breaking the law (They had this guy dead to rights, could have put him a away for a long, long, long time.  Which would have sent a signal to anyone else.  That whole Pour Encourager le Autres which TPTB don't seem to grasp.  All you have to do go back and look at what happened in Richmond VA with Project Exile.  Every crime involving a gun, every felon in possession became a federal case with a mandatory minimum of 5 years in FPMITA prison.
 From wikipedia.

Simple enforcement of existing laws do more to make communities safer then your magic card scheme.  I'm sure I'm already on enough .gov lists (at both the state and Federal level), however I don't them to have a list of me buying guns.  (not like the ISP wouldn't share it with them....)

We agree that the laws we have are not very effective, but they do burden gun owners.  Why not come up with laws that are simple, easier to prosecute, and HARDER to subvert???

This is what I don't get.  I'm proposing a scheme that actually is physically harder for crooks to beat, yet at the same time relieves gun owners of having to a damned paralegal to cross state lines and not break any rules.  It would also give them an absolute safety from prosecution for almost anything gun possession, sales, or travel related by filling out an application once and just possessing and using the licence after.  Only deal in guns with other people who have it, and you're safe.

Over time, dropping people from the scheme as they commit crimes leaves far fewer avenues for criminals to break the law.  The prosecution rate isn't the point - making systems so that everyone who has guns now can't easily be a source of crime guns is.

[Hawkmoon]

We agree that the laws we have are not very effective, but they do burden gun owners.  Why not come up with laws that are simple, easier to prosecute, and HARDER to subvert???

What do you mean "harder to subvert"? If the aw-thaw-rih-tays are subverting existing law by refusing to prosecute violators, what's to stop them from subverting your system by continuing to not prosecute violators?

This is what I don't get.  I'm proposing a scheme that actually is physically harder for crooks to beat, yet at the same time relieves gun owners of having to a damned paralegal to cross state lines and not break any rules.

You keep claiming that your system is harder for the bad guys to beat ... but it isn't. Your continuing to say it doesn't make it true.

The prosecution rate isn't the point - making systems so that everyone who has guns now can't easily be a source of crime guns is.

And there's the problem with your system. Probably 99%+ of "everyone who has guns now" (discounting those who are already criminals and thus won't be affected by your proposal) will never be a source for crime guns. You have just acknowledged that what your system will do -- by design -- is burden ("infringe") EVERY legal gun owner in the hope of blocking an infinitesimally small number of potential black market sales. That doesn't sound like a good deal for honest gun owners to me.

And, since it hasn't been mentioned for awhile, what about the illogic and immorality of requiring a license to exercise a Constitutionally guaranteed right? Yes, I know, the system we have now is unconstitutional. Substituting one unconstitutional system for another does not meet my definition of "improvement."

[MechAg94]

Long term, another disadvantage is this system creates a barrier to gun ownership for new gun owners.  Right now (in most states) if someone wants to get a gun, they just have to go to the gun store and buy one with a background check that is done on the spot.  With DeSelby's system, they now have to apply for a license.  It may not be all that hard to get one, but it still adds a hoop people have to jump through which will have a discouraging effect on gun ownership in general.  If the license were automatically given to any qualifying person who was issued a government ID, that would avoid this issue, but it still leaves the other issues. 

Lastly, the system we have is what it is because gun control advocates have pushed gun control at all levels of government and tried to find all sorts of ways to limit guns and gun ownership.  This leads to two more points:  1)  The only way to wipe out all the federal, state, and local gun regulations is to essentially declare state and local gun regulations null and void.  I really don't see that happening and I am not sure if that would pass court review.   2) Gun control supporters won't stop at this new law, but will continue pushing for more gun control.  You can be assured that they will push to limit more and more people from getting these firearms licenses. 

[Scout26]

We agree that the laws we have are not very effective, but they do burden gun owners.  Why not come up with laws that are simple, easier to prosecute, and HARDER to subvert???

This is what I don't get.  I'm proposing a scheme that actually is physically harder for crooks to beat, yet at the same time relieves gun owners of having to a damned paralegal to cross state lines and not break any rules.  It would also give them an absolute safety from prosecution for almost anything gun possession, sales, or travel related by filling out an application once and just possessing and using the licence after.  Only deal in guns with other people who have it, and you're safe.

Over time, dropping people from the scheme as they commit crimes leaves far fewer avenues for criminals to break the law.  The prosecution rate isn't the point - making systems so that everyone who has guns now can't easily be a source of crime guns is.

Because we pretty much have something like that already here in Illinois (sans the crossing state lines).  If I want to sell you a gun.  You have to show me your card, I run it through the ISP's Bozo-puter.  If it's still valid, we do the deal.   We get it.  Only it would work anywhere in the US.

However, unless you plan to eliminate prosecutorial discretion and guarantee that EVERY court in EVERY jurisdication could and would be able to make 100% accurate and timely changes to the database of gun owners.  Along with the new Bureau of Gun Ownership issuing the cards in a timely manner.

AND, that the system wouldn't go "down for extended maintenance", or be defunded, or subject to termination by executive order, or used to create confiscation or registration lists, or any other possible shenanigans that a President Hillary could pull since the NRA and us gun owners are her greatest enemy.

AND I'm failing to see how YOUR Magic Card differs from the the current FOID card in reducing (any) crimes.  The FOID card is doing fuckall to reduce it here in Chicago.  Gangbangers are stealing, dealing, and straw-purchasing them with out fear of being caught and charged.   How does your magic card make the US Attorney, State's Attorney, BATFEIO-EIO, DOJ, FBI, and all the other alphabet prosecute felon in possession, attempted murder, murder, or even unlawful discharge of a firearm when they aren't doing it now.   I read in the Sun-Times awhile back that the firearm charges are the first ones that are pled (pleaded?) down.   Hell, they aren't even doing what they promised to do.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/the-watchdogs-despite-promises-feds-fight-against-guns-lagging/