Author Topic: How about Wisconsin?  (Read 37378 times)

AJ Dual

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2011, 03:51:09 PM »
What I find interesting is that the public employees are willing to take pay and benefit cuts, it's only their right to collective bargaining that is stopping an agreement.

If this is only about the budget short fall then why hasn't an agreement already been made?

The issue at hand is Gov. Scott Walker actually gives a damn about local municipal and county budgets too.

By removing the collective bargaining rights for benefits, and only keeping them for pay (which is limited to inflation/cost of living), the local school boards can actually get their costs under control locally.... when the new state budget comes out and state-aid for local.gov gets cut.

This is just the opening gambit. Wait until the Republicans start pushing through their WI state budget. It'll be like a kid's first day at fat-camp, when he goes to the cafeteria, and is given a plate of celery sticks, and a 4oz glass of skim milk for lunch.  >:D
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2011, 05:55:38 PM »
so far 75 of rhees fires have been reinstated at a cost in the millions with back pay.  union forever kids last. still many more awaiting their hearings
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Balog

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2011, 10:13:50 PM »
What I find interesting is that the public employees are willing to take pay and benefit cuts, it's only their right to collective bargaining that is stopping an agreement.

If this is only about the budget short fall then why hasn't an agreement already been made?

 

I bet it was that war criminal George Bush's doing. He's pretty much responsible for everything bad in the world.
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AJ Dual

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2011, 10:25:18 PM »
http://www.wisn.com/budget-battle/26956968/detail.html

Quote
MADISON, Wis. -- State senators who miss two or more session days will no longer get paid through direct deposit. They'll have to pick up their checks in person on the Senate floor during a session.

 :laugh:
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JonnyB

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2011, 09:14:47 AM »
Our dumb-ass Minnesota governor, Mark Dayton, supported the protesters, telling them that such "...drastic and extreme measures..." won't happen in Minnesota "...because you have me!"

What a maroon! Asking the teachers to pay 12% of their health insurance and a portion (I forget the percentage) of their pension is neither drastic nor extreme.

Dayton is a twit.

jb
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roo_ster

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2011, 11:26:18 AM »
Oh, and Indiana Governor Groveler Mitch "Weak Sister" Daniels has pretty much knocked himself outta contention for 2012 POTUS candidate in the GOP:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/260419/daniels-won-t-fight-right-work-legislation-katrina-trinko

"Gov. Mitch Daniels made it clear in a press conference today that he was not prepared to fight for the passage of right-to-work legislation, which is being pushed by GOP state lawmakers. Today most Indiana Democrat assembly members left the state in order to ensure there would not be a quorum."

He calls a "truce" on traditional values.

He won't comment on illegal immigration at all.

He won't fight for right to work.

Let Indiana keep him.
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eyebrows

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2011, 12:58:57 PM »
We don't want him here in Indiana. I had hope but this crap makes me sick. Hey let's compromise by giving their side everything they want while we get nothing. Very disappointed and far from alone.

bedlamite

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #82 on: February 25, 2011, 10:31:27 AM »
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 11:34:23 AM by bedlamite »
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

JonnyB

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #83 on: February 25, 2011, 12:16:55 PM »
Huh. Four of the (so-called) Republicans voted "Nay". Apparently RINOs aren't found only in Africa.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2011, 12:57:09 PM »
Oh, and Indiana Governor Groveler Mitch "Weak Sister" Daniels has pretty much knocked himself outta contention for 2012 POTUS candidate in the GOP:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/260419/daniels-won-t-fight-right-work-legislation-katrina-trinko

"Gov. Mitch Daniels made it clear in a press conference today that he was not prepared to fight for the passage of right-to-work legislation, which is being pushed by GOP state lawmakers. Today most Indiana Democrat assembly members left the state in order to ensure there would not be a quorum."

He calls a "truce" on traditional values.

He won't comment on illegal immigration at all.

He won't fight for right to work.

Let Indiana keep him.

Yeah, you probably wouldn't like him.  He's a practical man more interested in fixing problems than stirring confrontation.  He's not one for chest pounding.  

There's a coupla dozen things that we need to get done this legislative session, right-to-work is only one of them.  Pitching a fit over right-to-work may be emotionally satisfying, but it isn't very sensible.  It compromises everything else we need to get done this session, stuff that's a lot more important in this comparatively union-free state.

And besides, we'll likely get right to work eventually anyway.  So we're taking a risk, jeopardizing other important matters, without any real upside.  This is the wrong way to handle things, it's bad strategy, and Daniels is right to point that out.

makattak

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2011, 01:22:22 PM »
Yeah, you probably wouldn't like him.  He's a practical man more interested in fixing problems than stirring confrontation.  He's not one for chest pounding. 

There's a coupla dozen things that we need to get done this legislative session, right-to-work is only one of them.  Pitching a fit over right-to-work may be emotionally satisfying, but it isn't very sensible.  It compromises everything else we need to get done this session, stuff that's a lot more important in this comparatively union-free state.

And besides, we'll likely get right to work eventually anyway.  So we're taking a risk, jeopardizing other important matters, without any real upside.  This is the wrong way to handle things, it's bad strategy, and Daniels is right to point that out.

I'm probably one of the most understanding people that there is a time and a place for strategy, but Gov. Daniels fails here. He gave up on the legislation and got nothing for it.

That's a bad strategy. You don't make concessions in a negotiation without getting something in return. Justified or not, he looks like an appeaser and conservatives have no stomach for that crap anymore.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2011, 01:33:19 PM »
Not true.  Daniels hasn't given up on it at all, and he's repeatedly said that he supports right-to-work and has no problem with the legislation, and wants it visited this summer.  The issue is entirely about when and how to best pursue it.  Now is not the right time, and there are more important matters to attend to right now.

Most of this debate, including the Governors remarks, are left over from a few months ago, back when state Republicans were laying plans and strategies for the upcoming legislative session.  It seems that the wider media is only now beginning to notice it thanks to events in Wisconsin, and as usual, they're getting the story more wrong than right.  There were some misquotes in the local press, and everybody seems to be running with those instead of what the Governor is actually saying.

EDIT:
I want to add that the big item we're bringing before the legislature this session is a solid school voucher program.  That's what Daniels gets in return for postponing the right-to-work debate, for keeping the legislative session on track.  There's some other minor stuff, like lower corporate taxes and a bill to return any unspent tax dollars to the people at the end of the year.  But school vouchers is the biggie, that's what we're playing for.  We're keeping our powder dry for that fight.

Keep in mind that Daniels broke the Indiana public sector unions when he first came into office, back on '04 or '05 or thereabouts.  And he's kept the state budget more-or-less in balance every year.  That means we're already way ahead of the game, we're not in the same union/budget/deficit/pension mess as other states like Wisconsin, Illinois, and Ohio.  

Private sector unions are comparatively weak in Indiana, so we can afford to put off any private sector right-to-work legislation for a few months.  School vouchers are the higher priority.  Republican state legislators swept in with a voter mandate to do the vouchers thing, and we're going to get that done.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 07:08:50 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

AJ Dual

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2011, 04:30:39 PM »
Kudos to them if that's the case.

A strong state-wide voucher system would have the same de-facto effect on the teachers unions as what's being pushed here in WI.

Of course, expanded vouchers/school choice AND limiting/eliminating collective bargaining together would be a great 1-2 punch.

We're doing it opposite of Indiana is all, there's some speculation as to how much expansion of school choice/vouchers is going to be in the budget. Which the pub-sector union bill is laying the groundwork for.

Essentially, Walker and the Republicans are looking to limit the collective bargaining not because it's a big issue for the state directly, but it is to the local municipal governments and school districts, and those state supplemental funds are going to be cut... severely in the upcoming budget. And with the teachers forced to take some enhanced contributions, and all collective bargaining limited to CPI/COLA/inflation, the local .gov won't be bankrupted by them.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 04:34:25 PM by AJ Dual »
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bedlamite

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2011, 06:26:53 PM »
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2011, 09:26:07 PM »
The measure of a good general is not his deliberative process, not his fine uniform, and not his intricately laid plans.  The measure of a good general is winning battles.  In Indiana, it is pretty obvious the Democrats are lead by a better general than the GOP, as they went all Sun Tzu on Daniels and won without even having to give battle.

Sometimes you don't get to fight on ground of your own choosing.  A good leader will be able to adapt to changing circumstances, not narrow-mindedly follow their plan into the abyss.  The Dems are set up to battle on right to work, and Daniels ceded the field.  They are handing conservatives a golden opportunity to show the center just how radical they are and how entitled they feel.

Walker, OTOH, is kicking their asses, building political capital, and rallying support for conservative issues.  It is the left that is "pitching a fit" and alienating the center.  Heck, the gov't worker unions can't even get more than milquetoast support from private-sector unions.  When the Dems come crawling back, Walker will be more able to get his agenda through the legislature.

The tone has been set in Indiana, all right...by the Democrats.  It is a tone of defeat for conservative issues, right off the bat.  I'd bet dollars to donuts this will make it more difficult to pass other conservative initiatives in Indiana, including the proposed voucher system.

Besides, this is just another indication that Daniels doesn't have the stones to tackle tough issues and is not mentally flexible enough to walk and chew gum at the same time in the political realm.  He squished on social conservatism, he squished on immigration too.  If he were female & from Texas, his name would be Kay Bailey Hutchison.

Don't worry, Daniels is safe in Indiana.  He is going nowhere, certainly not in 2012. 
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roo_ster

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #90 on: February 26, 2011, 02:29:08 PM »
What have the Democrats in Indiana won?  They lost the battle over public sector unions years ago.  They've been losing battles over budgets and government management for years, too.  They got their butts kicked on RKBA, on taxes, on spending, on business, on infrastructure, on outsourcing, you name it.  They're presently losing the fight over public education and they'll have the right-to-work stuff passed over their heads later this year.

But you know better.  You know that Daniels has no stomach for a fight, he hides from the tough issues, he's a bumbling boob who doesn't know how to win, who gets his ass kicked at every turn.  Right?

It's pretty clear that Republicans only win, in your mind, if they do things your way.  Getting results any other way doesn't register as a victory for you.  You're so invested in fighting the fight, with all of your military imagery and your pseudo-intellectual Sun Tzu nonsense, that you don't hardly notice the outcome anymore.  You've lost sight of why you're fighting at all.

So I'll leave you to it.  Enjoy your battles in Wisconsin and wherever else.  Stick it to 'em.  Make 'em bleed.  Savor every glorious moment of schadenfreude.  

Who knows, maybe someday, eventually, you'll win enough to catch up to us in Indiana.    :P

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #91 on: February 26, 2011, 03:14:13 PM »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2011, 05:11:55 PM »
What have the Democrats in Indiana won?  They lost the battle over public sector unions years ago.  They've been losing battles over budgets and government management for years, too.  They got their butts kicked on RKBA, on taxes, on spending, on business, on infrastructure, on outsourcing, you name it.  They're presently losing the fight over public education and they'll have the right-to-work stuff passed over their heads later this year.

But you know better.  You know that Daniels has no stomach for a fight, he hides from the tough issues, he's a bumbling boob who doesn't know how to win, who gets his ass kicked at every turn.  Right?

It's pretty clear that Republicans only win, in your mind, if they do things your way.  Getting results any other way doesn't register as a victory for you.  You're so invested in fighting the fight, with all of your military imagery and your pseudo-intellectual Sun Tzu nonsense, that you don't hardly notice the outcome anymore.  You've lost sight of why you're fighting at all.

So I'll leave you to it.  Enjoy your battles in Wisconsin and wherever else.  Stick it to 'em.  Make 'em bleed.  Savor every glorious moment of schadenfreude.  

Who knows, maybe someday, eventually, you'll win enough to catch up to us in Indiana.    :P


There was no battle over public sector unions in Indiana, IIRC.  Daniels was able to manage it via executive order.  All it required was paper & ink.

Hey, I'm sorry you get all butthurt when your golden boy comes in for some criticism.  I don't have nearly the sensitivity for criticism of my own Governor Goodhair.  I'd suggest some Gold Bond and maybe toughen up a bit.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2011, 06:36:30 PM »
There was no battle over public sector unions in Indiana, IIRC.  Daniels was able to manage it via executive order.  All it required was paper & ink.

Hey, I'm sorry you get all butthurt when your golden boy comes in for some criticism.  I don't have nearly the sensitivity for criticism of my own Governor Goodhair.  I'd suggest some Gold Bond and maybe toughen up a bit.
Oooh, butthurt.  Keepin' it classy!

You clearly don't know much about Daniels.  I don't think it's too much to ask that you refrain from spouting off about him from ignorance.

And can we carry on with the conversation without childish insults?

You mentioned Sun Tzu earlier.  Are you actually familiar with his thinking?  One of the his ideas is that it's best to win is without fighting, that the skilled general can secure victory without confrontation. 

Why are you so hung up on head-to-head confrontation and brute force as the only viable strategy?

roo_ster

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2011, 08:19:03 PM »
Oooh, butthurt.  Keepin' it classy!

I calls 'em as I see 'em.

Anyways, you're taking criticism of Daniels awfully personally and your reaction has been kinda whiny, right from the get-go.

You clearly don't know much about Daniels.  I don't think it's too much to ask that you refrain from spouting off about him from ignorance.

Case in point.  "Stop SAYing those things about my governor!"

None of the GOP policritters, not even those I voted for, are without flaws.  When they step on their johnson, it is not outrageous to point it out.  Daniels has shown himself not ready for the Bigs, what with his tendency to go for the capillary.  He's got plenty of company with other GOP POTUS also-rans. 

I'm probably one of the most understanding people that there is a time and a place for strategy, but Gov. Daniels fails here. He gave up on the legislation and got nothing for it.

That's a bad strategy. You don't make concessions in a negotiation without getting something in return. Justified or not, he looks like an appeaser and conservatives have no stomach for that crap anymore.

mak makes some good points, one of which is that Daniels doesn't understand the mood of the GOP base at this juncture and the way the center has moved toward the right due to the actions of the Dems(1).  He could have emphasized the radicalism of the Dems and the reasonableness of the GOP, but chose to give them an out and a victory because this opportunity wasn't accounted for in Mitch's Big Plan.  BHO had such a tin ear for the Green protests in Iran.  They didn't fit BHO's plan to sit down & talk with the mullahs, so BHO flubbed that opportunity, too.

You mentioned Sun Tzu earlier.  Are you actually familiar with his thinking?  One of the his ideas is that it's best to win is without fighting, that the skilled general can secure victory without confrontation. 

Why are you so hung up on head-to-head confrontation and brute force as the only viable strategy?

Yep, and the Dems in Indiana showed how to put him to use, and can use that victory to their advantage in subsequent engagements.  Hopefully, Daniels will recover despite being slapped about, right out of the gate.

In any case, Sun Tzu was not all Fabian maneuver.  If you have the advantage, which Daniels did (given the way Dems have been alienating the center with their radicalism), I don't recall reading in any of the translations that you then cede the field after the opposition chose their ground poorly. 

The Dems set themselves up for a beating and Daniels gave them an out.  I have nothing against maneuver, guile, misdirection, and other such tactics.  They have their place, as does a big ol' cluebat, when the opposition is so kind as to stick his fat noggin in the way of it.




(1)  A recurring theme.  The drift of the center away from BHO & the Dems has been due to Dem actions.  About the only thing the GOP has done to help has been to draw out the spectacle as long as possible and keep the Dem radicalism front & center on issue after issue.  The Tan Man (Boehner) made noise like he understands this.  Too many GOP policritters still seem to think it was due to their own wonderfulness.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2011, 10:09:12 PM »
Would it be "kidnapping" if one of the Dems was snagged by a WI state trooper who crossed the line, cuffed a Senator against his will, and drove him back into WI to the Capitol?
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Monkeyleg

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #96 on: February 26, 2011, 11:04:10 PM »
If he crossed the state line out of his jurisdiction, yes. If he was in WI, it would probably be unlawful arrest or unlawful restraint. Maybe he could have a fellow trooper in IL hand over the Dem at the state line. ;)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #97 on: February 27, 2011, 03:07:19 AM »
Case in point.  "Stop SAYing those things about my governor!"
Indeed.  Knock it off.  This isn't the playground, it isn't the place for insults and childish namecalling.  

None of the GOP policritters, not even those I voted for, are without flaws.  When they step on their johnson, it is not outrageous to point it out.  Daniels has shown himself not ready for the Bigs, what with his tendency to go for the capillary.  He's got plenty of company with other GOP POTUS also-rans.  
If getting the results we've gotten in Indiana is "stepping on your johnson" then so be it.  We could use a lot more of it, all across the country.  

Daniels isn't without flaws, true.  But the stuff you're harping on him for aren't flaws at all.  His ways may be different from the way you'd like to see things done, his priorities different from yours, but you can't argue with the success he's had.  Not if you measure success by results.

mak makes some good points, one of which is that Daniels doesn't understand the mood of the GOP base at this juncture and the way the center has moved toward the right due to the actions of the Dems(1).  He could have emphasized the radicalism of the Dems and the reasonableness of the GOP, but chose to give them an out and a victory because this opportunity wasn't accounted for in Mitch's Big Plan.  BHO had such a tin ear for the Green protests in Iran.  They didn't fit BHO's plan to sit down & talk with the mullahs, so BHO flubbed that opportunity, too.
You're kidding, right?  We've created the perfect contrast against the Dems' radicalism precisely by not being petty partisan radicals ourselves.

The Dems are trying to make us out to be overaggressive and heavy handed, claiming that our actions forced them to flee.  We won't prove them wrong be being overaggressive and heavy handed in response.  We prove them wrong by being reasonable and sensible, by calmly going about the peoples' business in a grown up fashion.

Hoosiers don't want firebrands and demagogues, theatrics and vitriol.  We want reasonable folks doing reasonable things.  Hardline confrontation?  Not so much.

You're right that the conservative base wants a fight.  But is giving them one them a fight over right-to-work the smart thing to do right now?  The goal in politics is to to enact our policy.  To that end the target audience isn't the base, and the purpose is not to stoke up the base's passions.  We're playing to the entire state, not preaching to the choir.  We aren't trying to earn a nomination for the Governor, and we're not trying to give people like you an opportunity to cheer for blood.  

We're trying to implement the school voucher program in Indiana.  Don't lose sight of that, don't let the other side distract you.

Yep, and the Dems in Indiana showed how to put him to use, and can use that victory to their advantage in subsequent engagements.  Hopefully, Daniels will recover despite being slapped about, right out of the gate.

In any case, Sun Tzu was not all Fabian maneuver.  If you have the advantage, which Daniels did (given the way Dems have been alienating the center with their radicalism), I don't recall reading in any of the translations that you then cede the field after the opposition chose their ground poorly.

The Dems set themselves up for a beating and Daniels gave them an out.  I have nothing against maneuver, guile, misdirection, and other such tactics.  They have their place, as does a big ol' cluebat, when the opposition is so kind as to stick his fat noggin in the way of it.
You speak as though the fight is over and settled.  Don't be so shortsighted.  We're only just beginning.  

What have the Dems gained in Indiana so far?  Nothing.  A temporary reprieve from a right-to-work bill that we didn't really want or need at this time, one that we'll still get later this year anyway.  And at what price?  They're using up all of their capital on this little temper tantrum of theirs.  Let them stay away!  Let them reject our olive branches to them!  The longer they stay away, and the more petulant they are about it, the less support they'll have when they return.

We're laying the groundwork for easier passage of our legislation once the Dems do eventually come back into the state.  And they're making it easier and easier by the day.

You love your military platitudes.  Don't forget the one about not to interrupting your enemy when he's making a mistake.

Above all, don't lose sight of the big picture.  The goal isn't to make the Dems look bad RFN.  It isn't to punishingly defeat them at every turn.  Let's not get so hung up on each and every battle that we lose the larger war.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 12:19:52 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2011, 03:08:14 AM »
And with that, I'm done here.  I return you to your regularly scheduled thread about Wisconsin politics.

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: How about Wisconsin?
« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2011, 09:55:33 AM »
*heh*

Couple random ideas on how to get the wayward dems back to the capitol...

Tell the dems that the state senate isn't going to vote directly on the bill (since that requires a quorum) but rather that they're going to vote on a bill that would deem the assembly's version of the bill passed....  (Good for the goose, good for the gander, etc...)

Or, spread a rumor that you're going to do the above, but that the republicans only have 1 or 2 votes more than they need in order to pull the stunt.  When the dems show up to vote it down, lock the chamber doors and hold the real vote on the actual bill.  :)

Schedule a vote to change the senate rules to no longer require a quorum.  Again, stating that they only have one or two votes more than what they need to pull it off.  lock the doors, etc.

To really have fun with it, introduce a bill that states that if you miss x number of daily roll calls in a row, you are considered to have abandoned your position, and the governor can appoint your replacement.   :)
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