Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: zxcvbob on December 29, 2019, 04:32:16 PM
-
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/12/29/2-dead-1-in-critical-condition-after-reported-shooting-at-church-in-white-settlement/
Was stopped quickly when members of the congregation returned fire. It will be interesting to see what the news media does with this story. (I suspect they will quickly bury it)
-
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/12/29/2-dead-1-in-critical-condition-after-reported-shooting-at-church-in-white-settlement/
Was stopped quickly when members of the congregation returned fire. It will be interesting to see what the news media does with this story. (I suspect they will quickly bury it)
The churchmember was a former FBI agent, so the MSM will cover it. If he were a plumber, then, no.
-
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/12/29/2-dead-1-in-critical-condition-after-reported-shooting-at-church-in-white-settlement/
Was stopped quickly when members of the congregation returned fire. It will be interesting to see what the news media does with this story. (I suspect they will quickly bury it)
Saw the clip. Bang, over in seconds, third shot fired dropped the perp.
-
From the video it appeared the perp asked one security guy a question (possibly as a misdirection) then shot another security guy as he was drawing a weapon, then shot the guy he asked the question of. Then the 3rd security guy shot the perp.
-
1. It looked like the one security guard started to draw his pistol and was fumbling the draw. He could have been just been putting his hand on his gun, but I thought he was attempting to draw. His draw wasn't fast enough. Practicing my draw is something I haven't done a great deal. That is a good reminder to do some draw and dry fire practice.
2. Right after the gun man was shot, it looked like several other churchgoers had guns drawn. That was nice to see. He would have had more people shooting back if the 3rd security guard hadn't stopped him.
3. Companies like AR500armor.com sell different body armor packages pretty cheap (less than the price of a gun at least). If you work security in some capacity, that might help. They also have one that is designed to wear concealed. I know other companies make it, but I am not real familiar with that industry.
I think this is it. They put stuff on sale quite often. Their 1/2" steel target plates are good and also go on sale quite often.
https://www.ar500armor.com/plate-carriers/plate-carrier-packages-w-armor/ar-concealment-with-soft-armor.html
-
NO POLITICS: Initial Analysis of Murders in White Settlement TX Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5NzuGSkL2E
-
2. Right after the gun man was shot, it looked like several other churchgoers had guns drawn. That was nice to see. He would have had more people shooting back if the 3rd security guard hadn't stopped him.
My one issue with that is those last two guys in the video. Man are they waving their muzzles around. I don't want to second guess people who were there and went through the ordeal, but those both looked like collateral damage waiting to happen had the bad guy not already been taken down.
Good point on practicing the draw. I do that on every range trip, but confess I always do "open carry" draws, or drawing from under an unzipped jacket. I really need to practice more with cover garments like shirts that need to be lifted.
-
Dry fire. 15 minutes of quality practice time is better than a day at the range goofing off.
-
Can't Monday morning quarterback, we probably all get shot in that situation. The guy closest, I think we all need to somehow get the mindset of closing the distance and controlling the weapon. Hard to do, natural reaction is to get away. Guy who took the shot, incredible, one shot stop under extreme stress. First guy shot had a chance, really poor draw. Again, standing up probably my natural reaction, probably better to just fall down until you are sure your draw is sorted out.
But like so many other church shootings that got stopped quickly, no national news coverage.
-
From what I saw, if the first guy that was hit had been Quick Draw McGraw he might have been able to get a shot off. But almost certainly he would have still been shot in the process. Sounds like the second guy might have got a round off about the same time as he was hit. The John Correia analysis said first guy had 3.1 seconds from first view of the perps gun to getting hit. Second guy had about 1 second more. Ex-Hoover took 5.3 seconds to take his shot, but pulled off a head shot on moving target with a pistol from 12-15 yards under extreme stress. So I have zero criticism of his actions.
-
They were all slow on the draw (that's not a criticism it's an observation, they were quicker than me.) The guy who stopped it was far enough away to get away with that, and then made an incredible shot -- head shot at 50 feet under extreme stress, and in just one shot. I think he's practiced a bit.
I need to start practicing, and start carrying in church again even tho' my wife hates it.
-
From what I saw, if the first guy that was hit had been Quick Draw McGraw he might have been able to get a shot off. But almost certainly he would have still been shot in the process. Sounds like the second guy might have got a round off about the same time as he was hit. The John Correia analysis said first guy had 3.1 seconds from first view of the perps gun to getting hit. Second guy had about 1 second more. Ex-Hoover took 5.3 seconds to take his shot, but pulled off a head shot on moving target with a pistol from 12-15 yards under extreme stress. So I have zero criticism of his actions.
With what? The second victim dudn't have a gun, he was holding a collection plate.
-
Something interested that I had seen pointed out elsewhere. Christ of Church located in Tarrant County, Christchurch NZ shooter named Tarrant. [tinfoil]
-
Pretty good depiction of all that is right and wrong with CCW tactics in a few seconds of video.
Man #1 fumblefucks with a pistol carried SOB while he is already far behind in the OODA loop. He never trained for it, and it shows by his carry style and his inablility to clear his pistol.
Man #2 makes a clean, fast draw, and a headshot on a moving target from a decent distance.
BTW, look up the guy who made the kill shot- they tout him as retired FBI, but he owns and runs his own firearms training facility, the latter is a lot more important than the former fact.
-
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/12/29/2-dead-1-in-critical-condition-after-reported-shooting-at-church-in-white-settlement/
Was stopped quickly when members of the congregation returned fire. It will be interesting to see what the news media does with this story. (I suspect they will quickly bury it)
Story being reported on Good Morning America this AM
-
So I have seen or heard this story on the national network news (broadcast and Net), the local and national mainstream print media and NPR. Not exactly burying the lede.
-
So I have seen or heard this story on the national network news (broadcast and Net), the local and national mainstream print media and NPR. Not exactly burying the lede.
Yes, I'm surprised by that. Maybe because the hero was retired FBI?
-
Yes, I'm surprised by that. Maybe because the hero was retired FBI?
Pretty much every story I've read mentioned, "Stopped by a retired/former FBI Agent".
Brimic makes a good point.
-
From what I saw, if the first guy that was hit had been Quick Draw McGraw he might have been able to get a shot off. But almost certainly he would have still been shot in the process. Sounds like the second guy might have got a round off about the same time as he was hit. The John Correia analysis said first guy had 3.1 seconds from first view of the perps gun to getting hit. Second guy had about 1 second more. Ex-Hoover took 5.3 seconds to take his shot, but pulled off a head shot on moving target with a pistol from 12-15 yards under extreme stress. So I have zero criticism of his actions.
The more I thought about it, the more I realized it all happened really fast. I really wouldn't have done any better. It also occured to me that the one guy may not have intended to draw, but just put his hand on his gun. Either way, he wasn't able to draw and shoot fast enough before he got shot. However, it happened really fast so I can't fault him. It is more just a lesson for the rest of us to practice more, work on threat identification, and maybe look at body armor options.
I did a practical pistol shoot and had someone take video with my phone of one of the sets. I know I looked slow when I watched later. Something I will also be thinking about.
-
I did a practical pistol shoot and had someone take video with my phone of one of the sets. I know I looked slow when I watched later. Something I will also be thinking about.
The defensive pistol classes I have taken filmed us through all the training and gave us DVDs afterwards. Video really is enlightening and humbling.
-
Had this happened in California, Chicago, New York, or any of a number of other liberal cesspools, the story would be that "several other church members have been taken into custody while police are investigating why they were carrying guns - charges may be pending."
-
Ex sheriff, not Hoover. Running for county commissioner.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/juliorosas/2019/12/30/hero-security-guard-speaks-out-on-texas-church-shooting-n2558681
-
It also occured to me that the one guy may not have intended to draw, but just put his hand on his gun. Either way, he wasn't able to draw and shoot fast enough before he got shot.
He not only intended to draw, he drew. But he fumbled the draw, and then drew far too slowly. Watch the video multiple times (slow it down if you can find a version on Youtube), and you'll see that at the moment he's shot he has drawn his pistol and started to bring it around, but it's just barely in front of him and pointed down -- not even up to the "low ready" position.
Multiple sources are still reporting that the second victim had fired a shot before he was killed. I think this is incorrect. Throughout the incident he was hold what appeared to me to be a collection (or communion) plate. I didn't see him even reach for a gun, let along get off a shot.
-
Hereeeee's Shannon
.@KenPaxtonTX shouldn’t be shocked by the church shooting in White Settlement. As Texas Attorney General, he specifically made sure that guns are allowed inside churches in the state: https://t.co/wBlzuBpGZt #txlege https://t.co/lLGfMgYD2S
— Shannon Watts (@shannonrwatts) December 29, 2019
If the church only had magic door stckers this would have never have happened in other words.
AKSHUALLY yes … Shannon Watts’ White Settlement shooting tweet has people wondering if she’s REALLY that dumb
https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2019/12/30/akshually-yes-shannon-watts-white-settlement-shooting-tweet-has-people-wondering-if-shes-really-that-dumb/
Meanwhile in gun free Chicago
Year to Date
Shot & Killed: 457
Shot & Wounded: 2284
Total Shot: 2742
Total Homicides: 510
https://heyjackass.com/
-
Ex sheriff, not Hoover. Running for county commissioner.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/juliorosas/2019/12/30/hero-security-guard-speaks-out-on-texas-church-shooting-n2558681
Even so, the MSM, even Fox News, is still pushing the "armed LEO" theme vs "armed citizen". From Fox:
Armed lawman credited with taking down Texas church gunman ‘seconds’ after he opened fire
-
Ex sheriff, not Hoover. Running for county commissioner.
Wilson is also a former firearms instructor and reserve sheriff's deputy.
Around here a reserve deputy is a fully credentialed but volunteer position which doesn't require police academy time but does take a few months of on the job training. I'd wager that he brought his shooting skills to the job instead of getting them from it.
-
Around here a reserve deputy is a fully credentialed but volunteer position which doesn't require police academy time but does take a few months of on the job training. I'd wager that he brought his shooting skills to the job instead of getting them from it.
My late cousin was a reserve deputy in Arizona. It was an unpaid, volunteer position but he still had to attend police academy and pass the standard POST qualification.
-
My late cousin was a reserve deputy in Arizona. It was an unpaid, volunteer position but he still had to attend police academy and pass the standard POST qualification.
Yeah, different states have different requirements. I believe in Texas the position requires TCLEOSE certification which requires passing an exam but not academy time. There are also local FTO requirements and firearm quals.
Note that many police academies are full-time, multi-month courses - sometimes requiring you to live in academy housing for the duration of the training - which would be prohibitive for most volunteers.
-
I'm starting to think a crossdraw holster might be best for church; so you can draw while still seated. Especially with a 4" or 5" service revolver. Anybody have one? Cuz I don't and just assume they work that way.
-
Shooter was a 43 year old white guy with arrests for aggravated assault and weapons charges in his past.
Over/under on how long until Antifa or similar connections come out?
-
Shooter was a 43 year old white guy with arrests for aggravated assault and weapons charges in his past.
Over/under on how long until Antifa or similar connections come out?
Item I saw this morning said "drifter with local connections".
-
https://thefederalist.com/2019/12/30/joe-biden-attacked-texas-concealed-carry-law-that-prevented-a-massacre-sunday/
2020 Democratic hopeful Joe Biden attacked Abbott for signing this law. He called it “irrational.”
“It is irrational, with all due respect to the Governor of Texas, it’s irrational what they’re doing. … And we’re talking about loosening access to have guns? Being able to take them into places of worship, store them in schools, it’s just absolutely irrational,” Biden said.
When Joe Biden is telling us what's rational...
-
The coalition to stop gun violence is upset that gun violence was stopped.
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2019/12/30/oh-the-irony-coalition-to-stop-gun-violence-disgusted-by-nras-praise-for-armed-citizen-who-stopped-gun-violence/
-
I'm starting to think a crossdraw holster might be best for church; so you can draw while still seated. Especially with a 4" or 5" service revolver. Anybody have one? Cuz I don't and just assume they work that way.
I have a crossdraw holster and a shoulder holster. I usually carry with an OWB belt scabbard at 3:00. Any of them would have been better than behind-the-back, but the crossdraw or shoulder holster are best for draw from a seated position. Especially when the gunman is right in front of you and you need to keep your movements as minimal and covert as possible prior to the actual draw.
-
Interview with the armed good guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTzwjW2osqU
-
I'm starting to think a crossdraw holster might be best for church; so you can draw while still seated. Especially with a 4" or 5" service revolver. Anybody have one? Cuz I don't and just assume they work that way.
I have a crossdraw holster and a shoulder holster. I usually carry with an OWB belt scabbard at 3:00. Any of them would have been better than behind-the-back, but the crossdraw or shoulder holster are best for draw from a seated position. Especially when the gunman is right in front of you and you need to keep your movements as minimal and covert as possible prior to the actual draw.
Pretty much 100% agreement here. Used crossdraw for many decades. One disadvantage is crossing the target horizontally, instead of vertically. Main advantage is the gun is more readily defended from a grab and of course for the seated position, especially while driving. BTW, almost any strong-hand holster can be used crossdraw unless it's got a severe forward rake.
Terry, 230RN
---------------------------------
Isn't it odd that all those paranoid people from the McCarthy-HUAC era turned out to be right? There was a Communist Fifth Column after all.
-
Here's one that's potentially interesting. It has multiple belt slots on the back, allowing it to be worn in several orientations -- including crossdraw.
https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/guide-gear-leather-4-position-holster-1911-models-right-handed?a=2191589
-
Used crossdraw for many decades. One disadvantage is crossing the target horizontally, instead of vertically. Main advantage is the gun is more readily defended from a grab...
That contradicts what I've always read. I guess I can see the logic of your position, though.
-
fistful remarked,
That contradicts what I've always read. I guess I can see the logic of your position, though.
Opinions differ.
Assume a right-handed shooter and more or less open carry --open shirt or vest or whatever, e.g. My thesis is that a grab from the back is easy with a strong hand holster since the gun's butt is facing the right way for the grabber. But with crossdraw, the gun has to be turned around in his own off hand to be handled properly by the grabber, giving the gun bearer a bit extra time to respond.
With a front grabber, the crossdraw gun butt orientation favors the grabber, but can be fended off by the off-arm, still allowing the bearer to draw from under his defending arm.
That's my thesis, anyway, but theses differ and you place your bets the way you think best.
Another case where theses differ is in my discovery that in ankle carry (yuch, pew, ick), again for a right handed shooter, the holster should be on the inside of the right leg, with the butt facing forward. This, by actual practice, but it's contrary to conventional theses. Again, with (yuch, pew, ick) ankle carry, but ankle carry (yuch, pew, ick) is sometimes necessary.
Terry, 230RN
Ankle rig, inside strong side leg, butt forward:
-
I have never yet found an ankle holster that did not end up sliding down around my ankle and foot within a few minutes. Even with the accessory strap up around the calf.
-
The only negative comment I have heard about cross draw is that a person who is up close can move closer and trap your arm against your body preventing you from completing the draw. Maybe that is assuming too much tactical sense on the part of whoever you are against.
-
The only negative comment I have heard about cross draw is that a person who is up close can move closer and trap your arm against your body preventing you from completing the draw. Maybe that is assuming too much tactical sense on the part of whoever you are against.
That and the sweeping are about all I've ever heard either. I forget the technical term for the move, but in defensive pistol you practice drawing from your 3-4 o'clock holster and keeping your arm tight against your body with the gun just above holster height (kind of a 90 with your shooting arm) and start pulling the trigger, which is supposed to be a means of defending against the close-in attack. Surprisingly accurate. When I practice it a couple of feet from the target, it's a pretty small grouping of bullets. I can see where the crossdraw would prevent that because of the extra movement.
Otherwise, I've only ever carried my .45LC Vaquero in a crossdraw, but (safely) playing around, it's actually a pretty fast draw.
I'd be interested in hearing Fly320's input, given some of the instructors he's worked with and what they say.
-
That and the sweeping are about all I've ever heard either. I forget the technical term for the move, but in defensive pistol you practice drawing from your 3-4 o'clock holster and keeping your arm tight against your body with the gun just above holster height (kind of a 90 with your shooting arm) and start pulling the trigger, which is supposed to be a means of defending against the close-in attack. Surprisingly accurate. When I practice it a couple of feet from the target, it's a pretty small grouping of bullets. I can see where the crossdraw would prevent that because of the extra movement.
Otherwise, I've only ever carried my .45LC Vaquero in a crossdraw, but (safely) playing around, it's actually a pretty fast draw.
I'd be interested in hearing Fly320's input, given some of the instructors he's worked with and what they say.
First part is called a speed rock, or in today's tacticool speak, shooting from retention. One hand on the gun, other hand defending with a block or whatever. It is used for near-contact distance shooting. It is very quick and the gun can be easily controlled and defended by the shooter.
As far as gun retention goes, concealment is best. All the rest are more or less dependent on how good your defense is. I'm not a fan of butt-forward carry, because that does give the bad guy the leverage advantage in a gun-grabbing fight. Appendix and strong side are probably the easiest to defend, but I don't know of any data to support that. I have had a few retention training classes and they all advocate strong-side carry. That may just be an institutional carry over from police training, though.
Another downside to shoulder holsters and cross draw holsters is that the draw is slower, longer, and has to change 2 directions to get on target. So does appendix, but it is closer to the body centerline so the directional change is smaller. Strong side carry has the shortest, easiest, and therefore quickest, drawstroke.
-
I think this is a good demo of what Fly320s is talking about.
https://youtu.be/oEFPcljAXgs
-
When I wore a suit every day for work, which involved a lot of time being seated while wearing the suit coat, I chose shoulder rigs for carry. I didn't need to worry about the handgun being exposed when the suit coat opened standing up or sitting down. Chairs with arms are comfortable for sitting, but bad for strong side carry. And, in practice, I could reach for the handgun without being too obvious. My handgun of choice then was a Glock 19, and the holster was a Galco Jackass.
Now, granted, it's not as fast as strongside carry. But it helped me follow Rule #1 of gunfighting (1. Have a gun.) in situations where I could not be openly armed.
-
A shooting in White Settlement is calling attention to its name – again https://t.co/3MUNEnVQvR pic.twitter.com/iL0rUO98dP
— The Hill (@thehill) December 31, 2019
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1212012808092737540/photo/1
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2019/12/31/is-this-a-joke-the-hill-offers-up-white-hot-take-on-the-fallout-from-white-settlement-shooting/
:facepalm:
-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/weekendgunnit/comments/ehmkja/when_he_tried_to_match_the_boomer_with_the_big/
So much kek
-
https://babylonbee.com/news/media-disappointed-to-learn-armed-citizen-stopped-mass-shooting
-
This is probably not going to be popular, but at this stage I'm leaning toward this being a robbery that would likely not have resulted in shooting had the security team not reacted to it. The bad guy didn't seem like he wanted to shoot until people started drawing down on him and from what has been released the bad guy was upset he had received food from the church but not the money he had requested. I don't think this was a case of a mass shooting being prevented, but more likely an armed robbery going bad and two good guys dying because of it.
That said, even though it sucks that good guys died when it might have been prevented by rolling over, I think it was the right thing to do to respond with deadly force. They did the best they could with the information and training they had.
-
https://babylonbee.com/news/media-disappointed-to-learn-armed-citizen-stopped-mass-shooting
That's actually closer to reality than it is to satire
-
This is probably not going to be popular, but at this stage I'm leaning toward this being a robbery that would likely not have resulted in shooting had the security team not reacted to it. The bad guy didn't seem like he wanted to shoot until people started drawing down on him and from what has been released the bad guy was upset he had received food from the church but not the money he had requested. I don't think this was a case of a mass shooting being prevented, but more likely an armed robbery going bad and two good guys dying because of it.
That said, even though it sucks that good guys died when it might have been prevented by rolling over, I think it was the right thing to do to respond with deadly force. They did the best they could with the information and training they had.
Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.
How do you determine the intent of an armed assailant threatening innocent people?
-
Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.
How do you determine the intent of an armed assailant threatening innocent people?
Agreed.
-
Even if it was a robbery gone bad it kinda slows down the next guy who thinks he ought to shoot up a texas church. Both in giving him pause and making it way more likely there will be even more guns in any given church.
-
https://babylonbee.com/news/media-disappointed-to-learn-armed-citizen-stopped-mass-shooting
SNOPES says: Mostly True
-
SNOPES says: Mostly True
What was the question?
-
What was the question?
https://babylonbee.com/news/media-disappointed-to-learn-armed-citizen-stopped-mass-shooting
-
https://babylonbee.com/news/cnn-headline-trump-voter-shoots-mentally-ill-man-in-church
-
https://nj1015.com/nj-gave-texas-church-gunman-plea-deal-that-wiped-out-gun-felony/
NJ gave Texas church gunman plea deal that wiped out gun felony
Read More: NJ gave Texas church gunman plea deal that wiped out gun felony | https://nj1015.com/nj-gave-texas-church-gunman-plea-deal-that-wiped-out-gun-felony/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral
This article might deserve its own thread. The article highlights a New Jersey case where the murderer was arrested for possession of an illegal weapon. However, it isn't just New Jersey. The article points out he has a history of serious crimes that were plead down in a couple of different states including Texas. That is the part I was thinking might start a whole new discussion. I think that sort of thing happens all the time all over the country.
I know a guy who works at a county jail who is in a position to review criminal histories of inmates. He said people would be up in arms if they knew the real data on what the prosecutors and courts have been up to. Few criminals are getting the book thrown at them as long as they are willing to agree to a plea deal and give the prosecutor a win.