Author Topic: Market Backlash against Detroit? (Read 11211 times)

Kwelz · « **Reply #25 on:** May 04, 2009, 09:54:58 PM »

With one exception I have always owned Domestic Cars. Never again.

stevelyn · « **Reply #26 on:** May 04, 2009, 10:04:56 PM »

Quote

Fix
Or
Repair
Daily

Found
On
Road
Dead

F****d
Over
Rebuilt
Dodge

I'm not planning on boycotting any of the big three because I'm already a loyal Nissan owner. The only issue I had with the Japanese trucks was they didn't make a full-sized pickup and I know I'm going to need one at some point here in the pretty near future.

I figured I was going to be stuck having to buy the lesser of the three evils to get one. Fortunately Toyota fixed that little problem by upsizing the Tundra. I wish a diesel engine was an option. Sad that Cummins has to waste such a magnificent power plant on a Dodge.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #27 on:** May 04, 2009, 10:25:46 PM »

Quote from: freedom lover on May 04, 2009, 04:18:32 PM

Fix
Or
Repair
Daily

Redundant. The correct rendering is:

Fix
Or
Replace
Daily

Ryan in Maine · « **Reply #28 on:** May 04, 2009, 11:41:09 PM »

I'm going to sell my Pontiac and get a "new" car. For now, it will either be a Subaru, Toyota, or Honda.

I'd consider Volkswagen and maybe Hyundai, Nissan, and Mazda if I lived in a larger area. I also wouldn't mind owning a MINI in a different climate.

If I want a car I'll look at the Impreza, Legacy, Yaris, Corolla, Matrix, Camry, Fit, Civic, Accord.

If I want an SUV I'll look at the Outback, Forester, Rav4, FJ Cruiser, Highlander, 4Runner, Element.

If I want a truck I'll look at the Tacoma.

That's a pretty freaking solid line up to pick from. Ford/GM/Dodge will never match it (except for trucks).

The other automakers even stack up well against Ford/GM/Dodge. Keeping them in mind.

If I want a car I'll look at the Rabbit, GTI, Jetta, Passat, GLI, Elantra, Genesis, Sonata, Azera, Versa, Altima, Maxima, Mazda3, Mazda6, Cooper, Clubman.

If I want an SUV I'll look at the Tiguan, Santa Fe, XTerra, CX7.

If I want a truck I'll look at the Frontier.

Don't get me wrong. I like Ford/GM/Dodge. They've got some good vehicles. But I just don't want to be a part of their future (although Ford still has a shot of skirting this crap).

Comparing cars by "type", the Big Three are living off reputation and not reality these days.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 05, 2009, 01:23:42 AM »

Why do y'all hate America?

Balog · « **Reply #30 on:** May 05, 2009, 01:32:00 AM »

Quote from: Gewehr98 on May 05, 2009, 01:23:42 AM

Why do y'all hate America?

Aside from the truck category, all the empirical data I've seen indicates Japanese cars are more reliable. And while I love America, I loathe the blood suckers in the UAW with a passion.

BryanP · « **Reply #31 on:** May 05, 2009, 09:03:06 AM »

When someone gets a lemon suddenly every car from that manufacturer is crap.

I've owned Toyotas, Fords and Chevys. All have served me well because I took care of them. Except for the Toyota I wrecked when i was 17.

My poor old Ford Escort ran for 246,000 miles before the transmission started failing. Moved "up" to a used 94 Chevy Corsica which I ran until it hit 278,000 miles and bought the '03 Impala I'm driving now.

Werewolf · « **Reply #32 on:** May 05, 2009, 11:33:42 AM »

Quote from: BryanP on May 05, 2009, 09:03:06 AM

When someone gets a lemon suddenly every car from that manufacturer is crap.

That's just Human Nature.

The ole saying burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me is pretty much internalized by most folk.

With so many choices in the market place why give more money to someone who sold you crap once and assume the risk that they will do it again?

mfree · « **Reply #33 on:** May 05, 2009, 12:45:52 PM »

"Of those only the alternator isn't directly atributable to modding it."

True, but if you're driving it the way you say then that could be directly attributable to the alternator's failure.

Do you have it on an underdrive pulley? Stock alternators, especially on V8s, are usually biased to start charging at a little lower RPM than high idle. That affects field strength for one... two, the bearings, brushes, and coils aren't really made to be spun up to 10-12,000 RPM* and dropped like a rock on a regular basis. That's partly also the reason everyone started switching to serpentine or multigroove belts rather than V belts... which at high RPM levels as with modern engines, tend to stretch and burn from wiping friction, and sometimes pop out of their pulleys altogether. Gyroscopic forces can come into play too because of the weight of the stator assembly. Turn a sharp corner at ~6000rpm engine speed and as far as forces go you may as well have cranked the belt tension up to 100lbs.

*not crank RPM, acessory RPM is multiplied due to crank pulley diameter.

AJ Dual · « **Reply #34 on:** May 05, 2009, 01:26:34 PM »

Quote from: Gewehr98 on May 05, 2009, 01:23:42 AM

Why do y'all hate America?

If union thuggery, and state-run banking and industry is "The American Way" now... Then yah, I guess I DO "hate America".

Then there are the sleazy-inept executives with golden parachutes etc. true, but they were at least subject to market forces eventually. If the Democrats were serious about cleaning up corporate America, anti-trust legislation should be expanded to limit or prevent multiple board memberships by CEO's etc. because it's that incestuous relationship that interlinks many large corporate entities and makes all of them adverse to nixing fat-cat golden paracutes for anybody.

Obama has made his intentions clear, by already making threats and refusing TARP money back from the banks who realize they've just sold themselves for Faustian Socialism.

I see no reason to believe he'll do any different with Chrysler or GM, assuming they get back on their feet someday.

The UAW is now just going to be another wing of the AFGE, we should put them on the GS-scale and opt them out of Social Security while we're at it...

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #35 on:** May 05, 2009, 01:34:20 PM »

I just don't get the irony of it all.

We have people on this forum who espouse the American way of life, hate what WalMart sells, decry outsourcing of jobs overseas, and yet in the same breath will exhort buying foreign cars.

Nice.

makattak · « **Reply #36 on:** May 05, 2009, 01:42:53 PM »

Quote from: Gewehr98 on May 05, 2009, 01:34:20 PM

I just don't get the irony of it all.

We have people on this forum who espouse the American way of life, hate what WalMart sells, decry outsourcing of jobs overseas, and yet in the same breath will exhort buying foreign cars.

Nice.

Well I was going to defend myself and then I noticed you did not say everyone on this forum.

In that case, you are likely correct.

For myself, however, I espouse the American way of life, love WalMart and the very idea of WalMart, love the idea of outsourcing jobs so Americans can be freed up to do more productive work and have no problems whatsoever with buying a foreign ANYTHING.

The American way of life is to COMPETE and be BETTER than the rest. If an American company can't compete, it needs to die.

Balog · « **Reply #37 on:** May 05, 2009, 01:51:56 PM »

Quote from: Gewehr98 on May 05, 2009, 01:34:20 PM

I just don't get the irony of it all.

We have people on this forum who espouse the American way of life, hate what WalMart sells, decry outsourcing of jobs overseas, and yet in the same breath will exhort buying foreign cars.

Nice.

It's my understanding that the average Toyota has more made in America bits than the average Ford. True, the execs are in Japan, but the factories are in America, and are not unionized.

BryanP · « **Reply #38 on:** May 05, 2009, 01:55:50 PM »

Quote from: AJ Dual on May 05, 2009, 01:26:34 PM

If union thuggery, and state-run banking and industry is "The American Way" now... Then yah, I guess I DO "hate America".
...
The UAW is now just going to be another wing of the AFGE, we should put them on the GS-scale and opt them out of Social Security while we're at it...

Well, it looks like the UAW has no intention of keeping it's Chrysler shares.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article6227417.ece

Chrysler’s union plans to sell its shares in the struggling carmaker as quickly as possible, the United Auto Workers’ (UAW) president revealed today, as the company prepared for its third hearing in bankruptcy court

Racehorse · « **Reply #39 on:** May 05, 2009, 01:58:48 PM »

Quote from: BryanP on May 05, 2009, 01:55:50 PM

Well, it looks like the UAW has no intention of keeping it's Chrysler shares.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article6227417.ece

Chrysler’s union plans to sell its shares in the struggling carmaker as quickly as possible, the United Auto Workers’ (UAW) president revealed today, as the company prepared for its third hearing in bankruptcy court

Of course they're selling the shares. If they kept them, they couldn't always blame someone else for their screwups and the UAW employees might actually start to feel a sense of ownership and vote to do things that made sense. In fact, they might just vote out the union bosses when they saw the impact of all the moronic business decisions that would be sure to come.

dogmush · « **Reply #40 on:** May 05, 2009, 04:35:42 PM »

Balog, I think you'll find that your emperical data is several years out of date. All the data for the las 5 or 6 model years is that the "quality gap" has been closed. Check out JD Powers inital quality ratings for the 06-07-08 model years.

mfree.

It's a known design flaw on the Cobra engines. The alternator is moved down by the left exhast manifold (lots of heat) and run off the blower belt (lots of belt tension). So they don't last long. What useally happens is they get hot enough to melt the solder in the voltage regulator and it gives up. (this is what happened to mine) It's a compromise on location, but there's only so much room in a mustang engine compartment and a 4.6 DOHC SC is a big engine. I'm not real worried about it. I just have to put a new alternator in every 35,000 or so miles. Cheaper then the clutch that goes in it every 20,000.

Teknoid · « **Reply #41 on:** May 05, 2009, 04:41:28 PM »

Quote from: Gewehr98 on May 04, 2009, 08:29:10 PM

No Fords in my future, ever.

From our '73 LTD wagon to my last '94 Explorer, I'm done with the brand.

If we don't buy a Smart ForTwo, I do look forward to seeing a Fiat 500 or Panda in my garage.

Hope you don't plan on the expressway. ForTwo = 0-60 in 12 seconds? I wouldn't want to get squashed like a bug getting on the interstate, myself. According to Edmunds, these things require premium fuel, too. Reviews on it are generally lousy.

I'd rather find an old VW Bug. I've had a couple, and they were the easiest things to work on I've ever seen. Complete rebuild on a '68 took me less than a day, and I had to use a book (1st time).

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #42 on:** May 05, 2009, 04:42:02 PM »

I plan on keeping my old iron running for as long as humanly (or even inhumanly) possible. And not nearly as much due to "Detroit" backlash as to government and technology backlash.

The computers in pretty much all cars built and sold since about 2000, in addition to running the vehicle, also function much akin to the "black box" in commercial aircraft. The car's computer stores all sorts of data about how the car was operating, and this data can be retrieved and read -- and used against you. I have no desire to be driving a new Toyondadai Spectaculon Mark XVII if any traffic cop can just roll up, plug his portable scanner into the OBD-6 diagnostic port, and determine (with admissible prof from my very own computer) that I exceed the posted limit by 2.137 MPH for a period of 13.2 seconds, plus I rolled through a stop sign at 1.483 MPH rather than coming to a complete stop.

And I don't want or need traction control or electronic stability. That's what I have hands, feet, eyes and brakes for.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #43 on:** May 05, 2009, 04:44:28 PM »

Quote from: Teknoid on May 05, 2009, 04:41:28 PM

Hope you don't plan on the expressway. ForTwo = 0-60 in 12 seconds? I wouldn't want to get squashed like a bug getting on the interstate, myself. According to Edmunds, these things require premium fuel, too. Reviews on it are generally lousy.

Heh, heh. Your (lack of) age is showing.

When I was in high school and college, 0 to 60 in 10 seconds was considered VERY fast. It was the standard to which every hot rod kid aspired. Now you consider it so slow as to be a critical hazard?

My, how things have changed.

mtnbkr · « **Reply #44 on:** May 05, 2009, 04:49:41 PM »

Quote from: Hawkmoon on May 05, 2009, 04:44:28 PM

Heh, heh. Your (lack of) age is showing.

When I was in high school and college, 0 to 60 in 10 seconds was considered VERY fast. It was the standard to which every hot rod kid aspired. Now you consider it so slow as to be a critical hazard?

My, how things have changed.

That, and the Bug he put forward as a good alternative isn't any faster.

Chris

SADShooter · « **Reply #45 on:** May 05, 2009, 04:53:47 PM »

Hawkmoon:

Then there's the opposite conundrum. My inspection (DFW) almost lapsed last year, because the one place I knew could perform the emissions test on my '95 Grand Cherokee didn't have the necessary chemical (supplied by the state?) to perform the test for almost three weeks. As things go, I worry that older vehicles will be increasingly difficult/expensive to keep on the road.

SADShooter

AJ Dual · « **Reply #46 on:** May 05, 2009, 05:05:11 PM »

Quote from: Racehorse on May 05, 2009, 01:58:48 PM

Of course they're selling the shares. If they kept them, they couldn't always blame someone else for their screwups and the UAW employees might actually start to feel a sense of ownership and vote to do things that made sense. In fact, they might just vote out the union bosses when they saw the impact of all the moronic business decisions that would be sure to come.

I was privately wondering about this. How would the UAW strike on itself?

It had been ocurring to me this would have been a great "Walk a mile in their shoes" Atlas Shrugged kind of learning experience for them. I don't want people to lose more money, and I don't want Chrysler to die if it can be saved and function as an independant business again.

But I'd be laughing if the UAW could never divest itself of it's Chrysler shares, and suddenly was forced to deal with Chrysler in the "real world" because of it.

Teknoid · « **Reply #47 on:** May 05, 2009, 05:26:47 PM »

Quote from: mtnbkr on May 05, 2009, 04:49:41 PM

That, and the Bug he put forward as a good alternative isn't any faster.

Chris

Actually, the bug is a HECK of a lot better than 12 seconds 0-60. It did as well as most 6 cylinders in that respect. That was a 4 speed, though. That funky automatic clutch thing was another story. Have you ever DRIVEN one? I may be a "young pup" at 50, but these days a 12 second 0-60 trying to enter the expressway is like a death wish. As for top end, there they are comparable. That wasn't a worry, though. 90 is fast enough for me. Mine would do that all day long after I rebuilt them.

stevelyn · « **Reply #48 on:** May 05, 2009, 07:44:17 PM »

Quote from: Gewehr98 on May 05, 2009, 01:34:20 PM

I just don't get the irony of it all.

We have people on this forum who espouse the American way of life, hate what WalMart sells, decry outsourcing of jobs overseas, and yet in the same breath will exhort buying foreign cars.

Nice.

The companies may be foreign owned with the home offices in Tokyo or Seoul, but most of the "foreign" cars are made here with American labor minus the criminal enterprise known as the UAW.

China manufactures all it's junk in China and imports it. No comparison.

Quote

Chrysler’s union plans to sell its shares in the struggling carmaker as quickly as possible, the United Auto Workers’ (UAW) president revealed today, as the company prepared for its third hearing in bankruptcy court

Of course. Keeping them would be in violation of their commie roots and place some responsibility for the company on their shoulders. They'd rather be the blood-sucking parasites they've always been.

Ryan in Maine · « **Reply #49 on:** May 06, 2009, 04:24:48 AM »

Out of interest, I decided to check vehicles from all the manufacturers that I had been considering buying from over the past couple years (disclaimer: only the vehicles I had been looking at for myself) up until now. I checked where they're assembled.

Courtesy of Wiki.

Overseas:
Honda
Accord - Japan/China/India/Malaysia/Mexico/Thailand/USA
Civic - Japan/Brazil/Canada/India/Pakistan/Taiwan/Thailand/Turkey/USA
Element - USA
Fit - Japan/Brazil/China/Indonesia/Thailand

Hyundai
Azera - Korea
Elantra - Korea/Russia
Gensis - Korea
Santa Fe - Korea/USA
Sonata - Korea/USA

Mazda
3 - Japan/Colombia
6 - Japan/China/Colombia/Thailand/USA
CX7 - Japan

MINI
Clubman - UK
Cooper - UK

Nissan
Altima - USA
Frontier - USA/Brazil
Maxima - USA
Versa - Japan/China/Malaysia/Mexico
XTerra - USA/Brazil

Subaru
Forester - Japan
Impreza - Japan
Legacy - Japan/USA
Outback - Japan/USA

Toyota
4Runner - Japan/Mexico/USA
Camry - Japan/Australia/China/Indonesia/Malaysia/Philippines/Russia/Taiwan/Thailand/USA
Corolla - Japan/Brazil/Canada/China/India/Indonesia/Malaysia/Pakistan/Philippines/South Africa/Taiwan/Thailand/Turkey/USA
FJ Cruiser - Japan
Highlander - Japan/USA
Matrix - Canada
Rav4 - Japan/Canada
Tacoma - Japan/Mexico/USA
Yaris - Japan/France/Thailand

Volkswagen
GLI - Southa Africa/Russia/China/India/Mexico
GTI - Germany/South Africa
Jetta - South Africa/Russia/China/India/Mexico
Passat - Germany
Rabbit - Germany/South Africa
Tiguan - Germany/Russia

USA:
Chevrolet
Colorado - USA/Thailand
Impala - Canada
Malibu - USA
Silverado - USA/Canada/Mexico

Chrysler
300 - Canada/Austria/China

Dodge
Avenger - USA
Caliber - USA
Challenger - Canada
Charger - Canada
Dakota - USA
Durango - USA
Ram - USA/Mexico

Ford
F-150 - USA/Brazil/Venezuela
Focus - USA
Fusion - Mexico
Mustang - USA
Ranger - USA
Taurus - USA

GMC
Canyon - USA/Thailand
Sierra - USA/Canada/Mexico

Jeep
Grand Cherokee - USA/Austria
Liberty - USA/Egypt/Venezuela
Patriot - USA
Wrangler - USA

Pontiac
G8 - Australia
Vibe - USA

Saturn
Aura - USA
Vue - Mexico

News:

Author Topic: Market Backlash against Detroit? (Read 11211 times)