Author Topic: 1-way planetary colonization  (Read 11197 times)

lupinus

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2010, 03:50:39 PM »
Unlikely.

Unless there's truly unique compounds that exist on Mars that can't be synthesized on Earth without great difficulty, or perhaps a higher proportion of heavy metals and rare earths, there's nothing that can't be gotten cheaper from asteroids or other places that have smaller gravity wells, or simply be synthesized here at home.

I'm not saying there won't be pseudo-economic make-work that will provide a prima-facie justification for colonization, but there won't be anything as valuable as simply expanding the human footprint.

I can't completely rule out that such colonization won't invent, or discover completely new resources or products we've never even considered before, however, one can do simple math based on energy availability and the rough distribution of the periodic table of elements in any given solar system body, and unless you're engaging in mega-engineering where no one planet has sufficient resources anymore, it's almost always going to be cheaper to produce it at home, or collect the elements elsewhere.
The same could have been said about the America's. Setting up an expedition was ridiculously expensive, let alone keeping the colony afloat.

Sure, it was cheaper and easier to just walk out into the English country side and chop down a tree or get some coal. Only problem was they'd stripped much of their own national resources to the point that it was cheaper to sail it all the way back from America. Same thing with Spanish gold, rum, sugar, and todays doodads shipped all the way from China.

A point is reached where easily accessible resources far away become more economically viable then dwindling resources at home. Once the right combination of propulsion to get the colonists there and the materials home, and large enough deposits of a material here at home that is dwindling, it will be economically viable. The propulsion system probably isn't more then a few decades away, there only needs to be the right resources found that we need here.
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lee n. field

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2010, 04:22:35 PM »
http://www.ted.com/talks/burt_rutan_sees_the_future_of_space.html

Scaled Composites.

Designer of WhiteKnight/Spaceship1 and WhiteKnight2/Spaceship2.

Partner with Sir Richard Branson for Virgin Galactic.

Branson is the $$$, Rutan is the idea behind the $$$.  The "Karl Rove" of the privatized space flight movement.

Looks a bit like Conway Twitty.   [tinfoil]

You missed the coolest Rutan & Co. bit of all, Voyager

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AJ Dual

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2010, 04:32:31 PM »
Then it won't be done.

I'm thinking that's why we've gone nowhere since the Apollo missions, despite our much greater technical knowledge.  =(

And besides Earth imaging, communication/navigation, and the nascent space tourism industry there's not much going on.

OTOH, the "space dividend" is very real. The semi-conductor/integrated circuit was invented by Fairchild to make the weight/size requirements for the LEM and C/SM's navigation computer, which once an orbit about the moon would be out of sight from Earth, and unable to get ground-based computerized course info.

You can argue pretty easily someone probably would have come up with the IC anyway, but it DID actually come from the "space race".

So you might be able to come up with convincing "make work" resources or production on other planets, asteroids, or space habitats. "We'll go, and new industries will arise" etc. Even if it's a false economy, if a self sustaining population on Mars does take hold, it'll be worth it for the survival aspects alone.

And also, heavy automation built from local resources might look completely different in a post-scarcity economy. People will be able to do things just on a whim.

The same could have been said about the America's. Setting up an expedition was ridiculously expensive, let alone keeping the colony afloat.

Sure, it was cheaper and easier to just walk out into the English country side and chop down a tree or get some coal. Only problem was they'd stripped much of their own national resources to the point that it was cheaper to sail it all the way back from America. Same thing with Spanish gold, rum, sugar, and todays doodads shipped all the way from China.

A point is reached where easily accessible resources far away become more economically viable then dwindling resources at home. Once the right combination of propulsion to get the colonists there and the materials home, and large enough deposits of a material here at home that is dwindling, it will be economically viable. The propulsion system probably isn't more then a few decades away, there only needs to be the right resources found that we need here.

There were very real economic incentives to exploit and colonize the "New World". Originally with Columbus, the premise was false, but they had the desire to open a westward trade route to Asia for silk, spices & what-have-you without having to put up with the Middle East. With the timber, you're correct much of Europe was de-forested by then, but the difference in scale between a wind-powered Atlantic voyage for timber, and mining on Mars... is well, economically speaking, you'd be better off planting trees in England and waiting.

After that it was Gold for the Spanish, Fur for the French, and Virgin timber for European shipbuilders.

And even with several orders of magnitude of efficiency in propulsion technology, metals from Mars will not compete with any from Earth. It'll be cheaper to do ocean bottom mining of manganese nodules, direct ocean filtration for metals, and mining our own landfills.

If you try to scale the early European exploration missions and colonizations in the Americas to a Mars mission that will settle a dozen people there or whatever, it's kind of like building a 100 mile long wooden ship, and putting the King's palace and 1000 servants/sailors on it. There's a ton of economic value and force multipliers in our modern technical/industrial society, and it's still a huge undertaking.

And if you get into real Malthusian problems with the population on Earth like you're building a geostationary habitat ring, or ginormous Arcologies/mega-cities etc. Then Asteroid Lunar/mining is probably still more economical than Martian. For an asteroid mine, a robotic mining probe can land, assemble a solar-powered mass driver, and then shovel some of the asteroid's own mass into the driver, and propel it to an accessible Earth orbit. Then you can use large Mylar parabolic mirrors to smelt ore at the focus, and then use mass-drivers again to drop the metals to earth, pre-formed into re-entry aerobraking shapes for splashdown into the ocean for recovery.

In space economy, planets are the low-rent district with high transport costs. The Moon and Asteroids, and the moons of Jupiter and Saturn are the primo industrial real-estate.

http://xkcd.com/681/
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 05:09:40 PM by AJ Dual »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2010, 05:02:17 PM »
To do these things we need lifters.

Very, very big lifters.

Think Sea Dragon or Orion.



I don't think political support for these will materialize any time soon.
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AJ Dual

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2010, 05:11:51 PM »
To do these things we need lifters.

Very, very big lifters.

Think Sea Dragon or Orion.



I don't think political support for these will materialize any time soon.

Space bridge.

We have the Fullerene's and carbon nano-tubes. It's now just a matter of engineering. The fundamental discovery has been made.

Add a conductive layer to it, and you have what amounts to an enormous rotor being swung through the "stator" of the Earth's magnetic field. It might even be self-powering. (Don't tell the Greens the Earth will lose a trillionth of a second a year in lost angular momentum though.)

ETA: There's also the HUGE benefit of the "counterweight station" that's extended out past the balance-point at GEO, payloads or ships released from there will have a "crack the whip" effect, and can be slung to every insertion point in the Solar System once every 24 hours with a rather large amount of "free" Delta-V.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 05:19:27 PM by AJ Dual »
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Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2010, 08:33:58 PM »
Um... why do people insist on going to Mars when the moon is so much closer and cheaper to get to?

Nitrogen

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2010, 08:51:39 PM »
I'd go.
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AJ Dual

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2010, 10:42:20 PM »
Um... why do people insist on going to Mars when the moon is so much closer and cheaper to get to?

I'm certainly a "moon first" guy as well.

Lots of what we learn there (save for aerobraking) will apply to Mars and other bodies in the solar system. There's more airless worlds than ones with some atmosphere we can actually land on.

And Helium-3, lots of oxygen is bound in the rocks too. Main problem is that the Moon is short on Hydrogen and Carbon. Although there seems to be enough ice hidden in the rocks and in permanently shadowed crater bottoms to make it worth extracting vs. shipping it up from earth.
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roo_ster

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2010, 11:17:04 PM »
Then it won't be done.

Do not make the marxist mistake and tie all motivations to economics.

Such an enterprise would be akin to a major war in scope, cost, etc.  Contrary to marx & many of those who place economics at the center of geopolitics, there are other motivations: pride, resentment, power-seeking, etc. 
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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2010, 04:15:32 AM »
I really can't bring myself to think space elevators are a good idea.   It may be, but the idea of having hundreds of miles of cable hovering in the air/in space that could break at any moment just sits wrong with me.

AJ Dual

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2010, 11:22:26 AM »
I really can't bring myself to think space elevators are a good idea.   It may be, but the idea of having hundreds of miles of cable hovering in the air/in space that could break at any moment just sits wrong with me.

Well, if it broke, the risks are all generally in atmosphere and low orbit. (Terrorisim and space junk) It can be designed so the majority would fly off into space. The counterweight station out past the balance point at GEO could be made a bit longer for a slight upward bias out away from Earth, so if there was a break it would go up instead of down.

Any parts around the LEO level that still might be going down would also probably be falling with enough velocity would also just burn up.
 
Also, you're nervous about it in comparison to a rocket which could go off course, or explode, and land debris anywhere? At least the space elevator would fall in a relatively predictable pattern based on the Earth's rotation and the height at which it broke.

And of course the equator is where these will be placed, and it's convenient the Earth is largely Ocean at that latitude save for a big chunk of Africa.

Also, there are designs that would be very fault tolerant. http://www.tethers.com/Hoytether.html

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Tallpine

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2010, 07:38:27 PM »
There's not going to be a launch to Mars.

It would probably take several years and dozens or hundreds of launches to build the "ship" in earth orbit.

Even so, getting there really isn't the problem.  The big challenge would be sustaining life long term in a basically closed environment.  You would have to recycle everything - and I do mean everything ;)

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AJ Dual

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2010, 11:16:05 PM »
Quote
author=Tallpine link=topic=26681.msg521480#msg521480 date=1288481907

Even so, getting there really isn't the problem.  The big challenge would be sustaining life long term in a basically closed environment.  You would have to recycle everything - and I do mean everything ;)



"Human Centipede" wasn't really a horror film. It was really a NASA documentary on long-term life support systems...   :laugh:
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 11:26:22 PM by AJ Dual »
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mtnbkr

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2010, 07:04:28 AM »
*whack*

Bad AJ!  Bad!  Go sit in the corner. :D

Chris

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2010, 11:29:53 AM »
There's not going to be a launch to Mars.

It would probably take several years and dozens or hundreds of launches to build the "ship" in earth orbit.

Even so, getting there really isn't the problem.  The big challenge would be sustaining life long term in a basically closed environment.  You would have to recycle everything - and I do mean everything ;)


Or find new ways to supplement using nearby materials. 
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Tallpine

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Re: 1-way planetary colonization
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2010, 02:05:33 PM »
Or find new ways to supplement using nearby materials. 

Water and oxygen  =|
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin