Author Topic: Over-penetration of .357 magnum rounds? (Read 11204 times)

Perd Hapley · « **on:** April 17, 2011, 11:04:28 PM »

The wife and I attended a CCW class this weekend, where we were advised against the .357 Magnum, due to over-penetration. I may have heard this before, but I don't recall. I have always regarded the .357 as the standard cartridge for a defensive revolver. (Though I don't have one, currently.)

What say the assembled sages?

Ryan in Maine · « **Reply #1 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:17:25 PM »

You should be fine shooting fleshy objects.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #2 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:20:27 PM »

Quote from: Ryan in Maine on April 17, 2011, 11:17:25 PM

You should be fine shooting fleshy objects.

You're saying if the assailant was fat enough, .357 Magnum would be OK? So I should have a .38 Special in every other chamber?

Regolith · « **Reply #3 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:20:51 PM »

Seems like BS to me. Penetration is a matter of bullet construction and velocity, which means all you need is the right bullet selection and powder load to keep penetration within the standard range. Perhaps the person who gave you that advice is only familiar with deeply-penetrating hunting loads?

Boomhauer · « **Reply #4 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:21:33 PM »

An example of why you should take CCW instructor's "advice" with a grain of salt.

JHP rounds, no problemo. .357Mag is a great revolver cartridge (although I end up using mine to mainly shoot .38spcl +P)...load it all .357, all .38spcl, or all .38spcl +P. Don't mix stuff.

Now, this does remind me of something, another piece of ill intended "advice" related to the .357...and that "advice" is to practice with .38spcl and carry .357. Hell no don't listen to that advice. You have to practice with .357 if you expect to be proficient.

Regolith · « **Reply #5 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:23:28 PM »

Quote from: Avenger29 on April 17, 2011, 11:21:33 PM

Now, this does remind me of something, another piece of ill intended "advice" related to the .357...and that "advice" is to practice with .38spcl and carry .357. Hell no don't listen to that advice. You have to practice with .357 if you expect to be proficient.

It's not a bad idea to practice with .38spcl for some of the time, though. It can help to develop trigger discipline without the expense and recoil of .357. Kind of like how some people get .22lr conversions for their 1911's so they can practice more.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #6 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:24:47 PM »

Quote from: Avenger29 on April 17, 2011, 11:21:33 PM

that "advice" is to practice with .38spcl and carry .357. Hell no don't listen to that advice. You have to practice with .357 if you expect to be proficient.

I could never tell the difference.

But, yeah, the class is just a legal hoop-jump. The instructor was not stellar, but the class was cheap, and some friends of ours were taking it, so...

lee n. field · « **Reply #7 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:25:14 PM »

Quote from: The artist formerly known as fistful on April 17, 2011, 11:04:28 PM

The wife and I attended a CCW class this weekend, where we were advised against the .357 Magnum, due to over-penetration. I may have heard this before, but I don't recall. I have always regarded the .357 as the standard cartridge for a defensive revolver. (Though I don't have one, currently.)

What say the assembled sages?

Teh Judge is what you want.

Mussmelons all explodey!

Don't ask me, they don't trust the serfs in this here People's Republic.

Quote from: fisty

Quote
that "advice" is to practice with .38spcl and carry .357. Hell no don't listen to that advice. You have to practice with .357 if you expect to be proficient.

I could never tell the difference. undecided

Boggle. Shooting them through a Dessert Eagle? I can sure tell the difference through my snub.

Ryan in Maine · « **Reply #8 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:27:15 PM »

Quote from: The artist formerly known as fistful on April 17, 2011, 11:20:27 PM

You're saying if the assailant was fat enough, .357 Magnum would be OK? So I should have a .38 Special in every other chamber?

Ha ha! 140 lbs should be sufficiently fleshy to shoot with a .357 mag and not worry about the bullet flying through to the next object. Worst case scenario it gets caught during exit by their clothing. You won't be shooting multiple assailants with one round.

Boomhauer · « **Reply #9 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:30:11 PM »

Quote from: Regolith on April 17, 2011, 11:23:28 PM

It's not a bad idea to practice with .38spcl for some of the time, though. It can help to develop trigger discipline without the expense and recoil of .357. Kind of like how some people get .22lr conversions for their 1911's so they can practice more.

Not objecting to that. Objecting to the folks that think you only have to shoot creampuff .38spcl rounds for practice and you don't have to expend the money on shooting full power .357 rounds that you'll be carrying.That idea got some police officers killed back in the days when they carried .357 revolvers...

MillCreek · « **Reply #10 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:48:30 PM »

I consistently carry and shoot .357 125 grain JHP rounds. Although my record of shooting people is exactly zero, the round in this loading has been very popular for decades.

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas · « **Reply #11 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:52:18 PM »

Sometimes you want to shoot the bad guy and the bad guy behind him. And most rounds made for SD against humans will overpenetrate, anyway, unless you're using those Glasers, whose stopping power is questionable.

If you want something that won't overpenetrate, use a knife instead.

roo_ster · « **Reply #12 on:** April 18, 2011, 12:40:40 AM »

Just make sure you use a premium HP and you'll be as likely to overpenetrate as any other reasonable self defense round.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #13 on:** April 18, 2011, 01:10:29 AM »

Quote from: Ryan in Maine on April 17, 2011, 11:27:15 PM

You won't be shooting multiple assailants with one round.

You ain't know my skills, dog. I have memorized all of the gun katas from Equilibrium.

Quote from: lee n. field on April 17, 2011, 11:25:14 PM

Boggle. Shooting them through a Dessert Eagle? I can sure tell the difference through my snub.

I probably would, too. I have only done the comparison shooting with a K-frame.

230RN · « **Reply #14 on:** April 18, 2011, 02:54:49 AM »

May I quietly suggest that this concern with "overpenetration" is overblown?

(Although I saw some 158 gr fmj .357s for sale the other day. Now those I'd be a little leery of and might do some hand-wringing over firing them at anyplace other than a range.)

Terry, 230RN

seeker_two · « **Reply #15 on:** April 18, 2011, 06:09:28 AM »

Unless you're using the heavyweight hunting rounds in your .357, I wouldn't worry about overpenetration. Most SD load are designed to expand and lose most of their energy before exiting the human body. If a round goes through a body, it won't have a lot of "oompfh" left. Besides, what is often considered "overpenetration" in documented shootings isn't the rounds that hit the BG, it's the rounds that missed.....

As for practice, the old-timers had it right....use .38Spl's for 75-80% of your practice so you get the basics down (sight alignment, trigger control, etc.) and use the rest for acclimating to the .357Mag's recoil and flash. In fact, you could get a DA .22lr and break it down further.....50% with the .22lr, 30% with the .38Spl, and 20% with the .357Mag...and still do well. Just remember to brush out the chambers before going from the .38Spl to the .357Mag.....

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #16 on:** April 18, 2011, 07:14:52 AM »

Quote from: seeker_two on April 18, 2011, 06:09:28 AM

In fact, you could get a DA .22lr and break it down further.....50% with the .22lr, 30% with the .38Spl, and 20% with the .357Mag...and still do well. Just remember to brush out the chambers before going from the .38Spl to the .357Mag.....

Oh, cool. I didn't know you could shoot .22s in a .357. Awesome.

Quote from: 230RN on April 18, 2011, 02:54:49 AM

May I quietly suggest that this concern with "overpenetration" is overblown?

I'M SORRY, I COULDN'T HEAR YOU WITH ALL THE SHOOTING. WHAT DID YOU SAY?

geronimotwo · « **Reply #17 on:** April 18, 2011, 09:54:50 AM »

i don't think i would be considering "over"penetration an issue. backdrop is the issue. always know what is behind your target. if you are going to load with .38's, then buy a .38. it is a much smaller/lighter package for carry, and are time proven. if in doubt go +p. i use .38 for practice, but my s+w is more accurate with .357. there is a considerable difference with noise/flash recoil, but to learn the trigger etc, .38 is fine.

Tallpine · « **Reply #18 on:** April 18, 2011, 10:49:11 AM »

I'd worry a lot more about under-penetration.

Out here I am as likely or more to shoot at a bear in self defense as a person.

As far as practice, I shoot mostly .22 rimfire. A single six is pretty much exactly like a blackhawk except a little smaller in the hand. In a real emergency, you won't even notice the noise and recoil anyway.

Heck, I don't even shoot my hunting rifle anymore except at something furry.

Boomhauer · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2011, 07:58:50 PM »

Quote

In a real emergency, you won't even notice the noise and recoil anyway.

Yet you'll have issues with the recoil affecting your accuracy and follow up shots.

Remember, you MUST practice with defensive ammo, or at least ammo with identical characteristics. This is not the place to try to save a penny. One of the issues in the Newhall Massacre was that the officers carried .357 but did not practice with it...and it was a contributing factor in their deaths.

birdman · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2011, 08:13:59 PM »

Quote from: Avenger29 on April 18, 2011, 07:58:50 PM

Yet you'll have issues with the recoil affecting your accuracy and follow up shots.

Remember, you MUST practice with defensive ammo, or at least ammo with identical characteristics. This is not the place to try to save a penny. One of the issues in the Newhall Massacre was that the officers carried .357 but did not practice with it...and it was a contributing factor in their deaths.

Absolutely agreed. When I go to the range I always finish up any shooting session of plinking (e.g. 115gr fmj 9mm / 230gr fmj 45) with a magazine of my SD rounds (125gr +P+ jhp 9 or 230gr jhp 45) to get the mental memory of the real rounds back. It makes a difference, especially with the hot 9mm loads. Now, my 5-7, I just blaze away

AZRedhawk44 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2011, 09:49:03 PM »

Quote from: Avenger29 on April 17, 2011, 11:21:33 PM

An example of why you should take CCW instructor's "advice" with a grain of salt.

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

My CCW class was so chock-full of gun-board arfcom n00b bullscat that it could have been done within 1 hour if it just had to cover the necessary legal material. Instead I got to hear about 9 versus 45, and how the sound of a racking shotgun makes burglars fill their pants, and revolver versus semi-auto, and all about the UN and Hillary and the Small Arms Treaty, and how farmers in the UK go to jail for protecting themselves from burglars, and every other piece of gun-board pop trivia you could dredge up.

Rather than taking care of business and moving on.

Doesn't surprise me in the least that you got a ration of craptastic information regarding the .357.

A CCW class is a walking-talking-self-propagating gun board perpetual motion machine.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2011, 10:28:17 PM »

Thanks for making me feel so much better! Mine was nothing at all like that. Compared to that, the class I just took was erudite and precise.

Jim147 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 18, 2011, 11:08:29 PM »

I'll agree with Tallpine on the noise and recoil under stress.

I've seen the flash in low light, but I've never had a problem with the recoil or noise when needed.

I shot for years without ear protection. I do ask people to repeat themselves many times.

I was out trying a new defensive load yesterday morning. I was having a feeding problem. I fired one round without my plugs in. I thought the pistol blew up for a few seconds. I used it last year when a cotton mouth popped up right in front of me and don't remember hearing it.

I sure don't hear a round when I'm hunting.

jim

j3rd · « **Reply #24 on:** April 19, 2011, 08:03:01 AM »

I hear a lot of talk about overpenetration on various boards but I've never actually heard about it happening since Gov. Connally took the bullet that went through JFK.

PS, not my intention to hyjack thread with conspiracy theories.

News:

Author Topic: Over-penetration of .357 magnum rounds? (Read 11204 times)