Author Topic: The movie "Fury"  (Read 3612 times)

K Frame

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2016, 07:29:44 AM »
It was the Sherman's performance in North Africa with the British that resulted in American planners greenlighting the massive upsurge in Sherman production as the primary tank.

It wasn't known what the Germans had in planning phases, but it was known what the Americans had... pretty much nothing. An attempt at a heavier tank, the M6, proved to be a failure, so development of the M26 Pershing didn't start until 1942.

It was considerably more advanced than the Sherman, and had a lot of teething problems, which pushed production back significantly.
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TommyGunn

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2016, 11:37:54 AM »
Yes, the tactics and the action portrayed were NOT standard US Army tactics of WWII.

Sherman's were designed to be Assault Guns to support infantry advances and the guns were for knocking out things like bunkers and machine gun nests, not to go toe-to-toe with German tanks.  That's what M10, M18, and M36 (along with the Towed Guns) Tank Destroyer Battalions were for.

P.S.  If you are ever near Central Indiana, the [urlhttp://ropkeyarmormuseum.com/]Ropke Armor Museum is Crawfordsville is simply Outstanding. [/url]

This is true .... but it also true that Shermans and German tanks did encounter each other and ... "duke it out" as it were.  Often to the detriment of the Sherman crew.
I enjoyed the film.  Perhaps it had its inaccuracies (many films do) but it was still entertaining.
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French G.

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2016, 11:49:17 AM »
I haven't watched this one yet but any movie Sherman crew without Donald Sutherland is sure to suck.
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K Frame

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2016, 11:54:55 AM »
Actually, it's apparently not entirely true. I had always thought that to be the case, as well.

Army doctrine for the tank in the years leading up to the war was apparently a hybrid of "tanks are an arm of the infantry," and "tanks lead the way" called combined arms operational force, in which tanks were to be used situationally, but in many cases the units weren't entirely trained on the new theories, and tanks were used primarily as infantry support in situations where they would have been far more useful in breaking out, etc.

 


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Jocassee

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2016, 12:00:38 PM »
Some of you may not know that Fury and End of Watch were directed by the same guy, and they have some structural similarities. Both have roughly three acts. End of Watch does it better, IMO, the middle act not feeling nearly as long, but also doesn't offer as much insight into the stress of the men in question and how they cope, or don't.

The characters in Fury are a little clichéd, its true, but I did not feel that too heavily. Nor did I feel the director gave short shrift to any one type. Again, the middle section, which is excruciatingly awkward, is supposed to be so. Something is being said about each of the characters--and the women whose house they occupy.

For me, the best part of the movie was the sound production. Best I have ever experienced in the theater. I actually ducked when the shells glanced off the tanks.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2016, 02:06:57 PM »
Some of you may not know that Fury and End of Watch were directed by the same guy, and they have some structural similarities. Both have roughly three acts. End of Watch does it better, IMO, the middle act not feeling nearly as long, but also doesn't offer as much insight into the stress of the men in question and how they cope, or don't.

The characters in Fury are a little clichéd, its true, but I did not feel that too heavily. Nor did I feel the director gave short shrift to any one type. Again, the middle section, which is excruciatingly awkward, is supposed to be so. Something is being said about each of the characters--and the women whose house they occupy.

For me, the best part of the movie was the sound production. Best I have ever experienced in the theater. I actually ducked when the shells glanced off the tanks.

I have a feeling that the center portion of the film appeals much more to the female viewers than the male. I really appreciated that part. Too many war movies add on the feminine perspective part and it's a dinky love story that falls flat. This, with the odd element of playing house, seemed to have more relevance, not just for the main characters but also exploring how horrifying and surreal the experience of having enemy soliders come through your home.
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Jocassee

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2016, 02:28:07 PM »
I have a feeling that the center portion of the film appeals much more to the female viewers than the male. I really appreciated that part. Too many war movies add on the feminine perspective part and it's a dinky love story that falls flat. This, with the odd element of playing house, seemed to have more relevance, not just for the main characters but also exploring how horrifying and surreal the experience of having enemy soliders come through your home.

Liz, never thought of that. Good to have the female perspective on this kind of stuff. While I'm not surprised you watched this and enjoyed, it, I doubt the overall numbers of women in the theater were very high. My wife went and watched it with me but didn't appreciate it as much.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2016, 03:19:41 PM »
Liz, never thought of that. Good to have the female perspective on this kind of stuff. While I'm not surprised you watched this and enjoyed, it, I doubt the overall numbers of women in the theater were very high. My wife went and watched it with me but didn't appreciate it as much.

I probably appreciated it more than most woman simply because of the "Oh! Grease Gun!" factor, but yeah, a lot of war movies in the past few decades seem to be trying to pull in a demographic that doesn't typically do war movies and, unfortunately, they mostly get it wrong (Pearl Harbor is probably one of the best examples of "Dear god, WHY!? Please stop with the sappy love story and go back to blowing *expletive deleted*it up!")
Which is sad, because there are feminine perspectives they could explore that can really hit home. We Were Soliders did that well, even though the deal with the wives was ficticious, it still, IMHO, showed that other perspective and it contrasted nicely with the men knowing to much and the woman not knowing enough, while both are helpless in their circumstances.
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MechAg94

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2016, 03:38:30 PM »
I can't stand that more recent Pearl Harbor movie for that same reason.  That and the Japanese bomber planes seemed to have a primary target of dropping bombs on fleeing nurses. 
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birdman

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2016, 07:38:30 PM »
The bazooka was pretty good for knocking a hole in a wall. Not so great against German tanks. Actually, we need something like a bazooka for urban combat today and don't have it.

Bad rev.  "Like a bazooka"?  You mean other than the m72...which was effectively identical in terms of performance and we handed them out like candy...except they sucked, just like the bazooka, or do you mean like the AT4 which is still cheap and now has anti-material capability as well?  Or do you mean like the Carl Gustav...which now even the regular army is getting (instead of just SOF)...

just Warren

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2016, 07:49:30 PM »
We need to name all our weapons Carl Gustav.
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Jocassee

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2016, 08:21:00 PM »
"Oh! Grease Gun!"

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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2016, 08:58:30 PM »
I'll be honest, one reason why I liked it so much may be that it's the first WWII movie I've seen since reading my grandfather's memoirs and the landscape of it (wet, cold and muddy) is very much what he described in the one month of the war he covered (November 1944, Battle of Metz)

I don't know, seeing the visual and the artillery, even the Hollywood version, makes reading what Grandpa wrote seem more real. *shrug* 
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K Frame

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2016, 11:05:33 AM »
The biggest problem with the tank destroyer concept in the American military in WW II was how they were deployed.

Quite frequently they were deployed in the exact same way as the Shermans, which significantly reduced their effectiveness and which also greatly increased their vulnerability.

They were, in many respects, the land version of British battle cruisers of World War I. Fast, light, carrying a heavy punch, and all to frequently called to participate in situations where their vulnerabilities were magnified all out of proportion.
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French G.

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2016, 11:54:44 AM »
Tank destroyers seem to me best suited on the defense where their area of heavy armor and gun can be pre-sited on a likely fire axis and the rest of the vehicle as hull down as possible. Nowadays 4 guys, a Humvee and a fire and forget ATGM do as well.
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MechAg94

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2016, 11:57:55 AM »
Tank destroyers seem to me best suited on the defense where their area of heavy armor and gun can be pre-sited on a likely fire axis and the rest of the vehicle as hull down as possible. Nowadays 4 guys, a Humvee and a fire and forget ATGM do as well.
Are you talking about the lightly armored tanks with big guns or the half tracks with artillery?  My understanding is some of those tank destroyers were very fast and maneuverable and could be very effective on the attack.  If they came under fire themselves, they had to start moving.
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K Frame

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Re: The movie "Fury"
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2016, 12:23:50 PM »
"Tank destroyers seem to me best suited on the defense where their area of heavy armor and gun can be pre-sited on a likely fire axis and the rest of the vehicle as hull down as possible."

As originally envisioned, American tank destroyers were expected to deal with German tanks operating in blitzkrieg fashion using the kind of fast moving tactics that had worked so well in Poland, the low countries, and in the open stages of the Eastern Front war. In those tactics, German tanks punched through opposition and ran in front of their supporting infantry and artillery, effectively operating as cruiser units.

Purpose built American tank destroyers were designed to counter German tanks operating mode by being fast and mobile, which would allow them to engage and disengage at will, and also, as you mention, in pre-sited firing positions in a defensive mode. Unfortunately, it rarely worked out like that during World War II.

By the time American units entered the conflict wholesale, German tactics had changed dramatically, and were operating increasingly in a defense in depth mode. As such, American tank destroyers rarely got the opportunity to operate as originally intended, and it was then that their design limitations became glaringly apparent.

Besides the light armor, many American tank destroyers had open-topped turrets. While great for visibility, it left the crew vulnerable to infantry and air burst artillery and, in fact, many tank destroyer crew casualties were caused by shrapnel when they were put into combat situations where German armor was supported by artillery.

The same was true when tank destroyers were used in supporting attacks against German held positions -- the light armor and open topped turrets were vulnerable to just about everything above small arms.


"Are you talking about the lightly armored tanks with big guns or the half tracks with artillery?"

The "half-track with an artillery gun stuck in the back" was an expediency design, and was virtually never used after the invasion of Sicily. It was effective against Italian tanks and early German tanks, but it was slow, vulnerable to return fire, the gun had very limited aiming capabilities, and the gun's performance was quickly superseded by increasingly heavily armored tanks.

Most of the M3 Motor Gun Carriages in Europe ended up being used as self-propelled artillery or simply having the gun yanked out and the half-track returned to its originally purposes.

They were used with greater effect by Marines in the Pacific, where the rather lackluster ballistics of the 75mm gun was still more than enough to deal with Japanese tanks. 

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