Is the new superbug a result of the Iraq War?

[Manedwolf]

Listerine is an antiseptic, it's not an antibiotic.

I'm not 100% sure, as I fluked bacteriology , but I'm pretty sure that the mechanisms are very different.

Antiseptics are exclusively topical. Alcohol and thymol are both potent antiseptics, and both are present in Listerine.

I can't find a single reference to thymol-resistant bacteria, but I have found a LOT of information on how thymol preparations are being used as a first-line of defense against, and treatment of, antibiotic-resistant bacterial infections.

Yes. Listerine was named for Joseph Lister, who, using Pasteur's research, re-discovered antiseptics and their ability to kill microorganisms and pathogens.

The Egyptian physician and architect Imhotep wrote of an extract of bread mold that could be used to treat an infection, (yes, they had penicillin of a sort!) and knew of the antiseptic properties of palm wine and antibiotic properties of honey. He also properly set and pinned major bone fractures and even cut and replaced a bit of a worker's skull to relieve pressure from an epidural hematoma...without infection, apparently, since the worker lived for many years beyond that, according to what they found of the guy's mummy.

The Roman physician Galen had surgeons sterilize their fine steel scalpels, spatulas, forceps and retractors in boiling water on a brazier before surgery. The military hospitals he set up were bright places with separated wards and good airflow, and had excellent recovery rates. He even performed cataract surgery, successfully!

It's just that Western civilization forgot all that when it fell, and didn't regain it until Joseph Lister re-discovered it after the Civil War.

[charby]

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/CID/journal/issues/v40n11/35299/35299.web.pdf

I was reading that earlier Mike. There seem to be a few web links investigating bacteria resistance to antiseptic type agents, not in any position to judge the research. I'm curious about how bacteria could survive the effects of say an alcohol wipe.

I got an A in microbiology....

Easiest way to describe is some have a protective coating that prevents the actions of the antiseptic from penetrating. There are bacteria that live in your stomach and stomach juice is some powerful stuff on the relative scheme of naturally occurring acids.

I can see where a dentist might be concern about over antiseptic use, some bacteria is beneficial in that it fills the voids were a pathogenic bacteria could hide if the non-path is destroyed. Same reason they recommend you eat yogurt if you take antibiotics so you don't get a bloom of pathogenic bacteria in your GI tract. A bacteria bloom can lead to a ulcer in the stomach and trust me they are painful.

-C

[Manedwolf]

As far as creating superbugs here, a lot of researchers are convinced that the societal fad of putting mild topical antibacterial agents like triclosan in nearly EVERYTHING has done nothing but create resistant strains of skin bacteria simply by evolution.

[K Frame]

I know about the hard-shell bacteria being very resistant to some products. I also know there's some controversy over whether, if strong antibacterial agents can't penetrate the coating, whether they can actually have a notable effect in the first place.

Honey isn't antibiotic, it's antiseptic in that the huge amounts of sugar rob bacteria of free water that they need to function. Sugar cured ham is a good example of that...

[CAnnoneer]

Yes, I have been thinking along what Iain pointed out. Indeed an alcohol wipe should be pretty effective in principle, because the alcohol would dissolve at least some of the lipids in the cell membrane, thereby potentially rupturing the cell. Soaps have a similar effect and are routinely used in cell lysing. Also, a 70% alcohol spray is used in biolabs to disinfect surfaces when a potential cellular contamination is suspected.

However, the above stuff is mostly true for active animal cells with soft walls, or for active bacteria. I am not a bacteriologist, but IIRC, bacteria can go into a quiescent state where they are much more resistant to outside "stimuli" than normally. Since generally a population of bacteria is not synchronized, there is always a subpopulation that is in a quiescent phase. So, it seems plausible that the actively dividing subpopulation will get wiped out while at least some of the quiescent would survive.

Another way to think about the alcohol wipe is that if indeed alcohol were a perfect and indiscriminate antiseptic, then hard-liquor alcoholics would have significantly less tooth decay than the average. AFAIK, that is not true. Perhaps part of the explanation is that a lot of the bacteria hide in small spaces between the teeth, and between gum and tooth. Those are difficult to reach, unless you keep the alcohol in your mouth for a long time, waiting for it to diffuse through saliva and plaque, and reach everywhere.

[BrokenPaw]

Whether or not using antiseptic cleaners everywhere actually leads to evolved superbugs, it seems to me that if we live in a home where every surface has been rendered 99.9999% bacteria-free (or whatever the advertising claims are), then we are acclimatizing our immune systems to an environment where everything is all nice and padded.  So when we go out into the actual world, that has actual bacteria in it, we're less prepared.

So disregarding bacterial evolution for a moment, doesn't it stand to reason that antibacterial-everything in the home is ultimately detrimental to health?

-BP

[Manedwolf]

Whether or not using antiseptic cleaners everywhere actually leads to evolved superbugs, it seems to me that if we live in a home where every surface has been rendered 99.9999% bacteria-free (or whatever the advertising claims are), then we are acclimatizing our immune systems to an environment where everything is all nice and padded.  So when we go out into the actual world, that has actual bacteria in it, we're less prepared.

So disregarding bacterial evolution for a moment, doesn't it stand to reason that antibacterial-everything in the home is ultimately detrimental to health?

-BP

That's already been found. Kids who play in the dirt get sick less than the ones raised in ultra-sterile houses by OCD moms who never let them touch dirt. The latter is often sickly as soon as they get into a school with other kids.

[K Frame]

"Whether or not using antiseptic cleaners everywhere actually leads to evolved superbugs, it seems to me that if we live in a home where every surface has been rendered 99.9999% bacteria-free..."

"That's already been found. Kids who play in the dirt get sick less than the ones raised in ultra-sterile houses..."

I KNEW my policy of not cleaning my house was actually beneficial!

[Len Budney]

More on topic, I'd be surprised to learn that the military made a significant contribution to drug-resistant diseases. It's possible, since soldiers are certainly stuck in filthy hellholes from time to time. But evolving a new strain takes generations. Bacterial generations, not human generations, but that still means time.

Many drug-resistant strains are bred in US prisons, where squalor and poor medical care go hand-in-hand, and diseases have decades to evolve.

--Len.

[MechAg94]

Texas A&M had an offensive lineman that was out of action for a few months due to a staph infection.  That was 4 or 5 years ago.  My mother was an LVN nurse ~10 years ago and mentioned the concern for that sort of thing as well.  Nothing new.  It is a particular problem in Hospitals and areas that are constantly sterilized.

[MillCreek]

Many drug-resistant strains are bred in US prisons, where squalor and poor medical care go hand-in-hand, and diseases have decades to evolve.

--Len.

A few years back, there was great concern amongst US public health authorities about a particularly nasty strain of drug-resistant TB that was endemic in certain Russian prisons.  Many of these prisoners upon release were coming to the US and in some cases infecting others. 

[GigaBuist]

Cool beans.  I had no idea these strains had been around so long.

That's what I get for believing media hype I guess.

No, I'm not an electrician, but I know why you asked that.  I'll PM with details, grampster.

[Len Budney]

Texas A&M had an offensive lineman that was out of action for a few months due to a staph infection.  That was 4 or 5 years ago.  My mother was an LVN nurse ~10 years ago and mentioned the concern for that sort of thing as well.  Nothing new.

Yep. I was a nurses' aide from about 18 years ago to about 12 years ago, and methicillin-resistant staph aureus (MRSA) was a problem. The drug-resistant version of TB was starting to show itself around that time as well. I believe that both originated in prisons; if I'm remembering incorrectly, then the drug-resistant TB did at least. I only had one case of the TB, but I watched nurses' aides doing what they could to worsen the MRSA problem by failing to follow universal precautions. It's a pain to glove, gown and wash every time you enter the patient's room. Some nursing homes had their own little epidemics.

--Len.

[roo_ster]

When I was getting cut on 'purt regular at Martin Army Community Hospital at Ft Benning, I managed to offend some nurses who had trouble with aseptic technique*.  I had a central venous catheter in, which required some TLC.  I am not a nurse, but I was trained in aspetic technique by the OR nurse who helped install it.  Nobody cared more than I that it was done right.

* "Ma'am, I'd prefer to do this while you are on the other side of the room, as far from my chest as possible."

[K Frame]

Drug resistant tuberculosis has been recognized since at least the early 1960s, outside of the prison population, and has been a growing threat since the 1970s.

[Len Budney]

Drug resistant tuberculosis has been recognized since at least the early 1960s, outside of the prison population, and has been a growing threat since the 1970s.

OK, I retract "started to show itself." In my own professional experience, it was still relatively rare in the 1980s.

--Len.

[280plus]

If not, it is Bush's fault in some other way.   

And I thought it was the commies...