Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Perd Hapley on May 04, 2014, 11:43:27 PM
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Reports, or rumors?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/30/us-usa-nevada-rancher-idUSBREA3T15520140430
http://www.startribune.com/nation/257514641.html
This is the letter sent by a U.S. Representative to the county sheriff.
http://horsford.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/horsford-urges-sheriff-gillespie-to-investigate-armed-militia-presence
Doesn't seem to be any hard evidence; just allegations. =|
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If this is true, it would not be a good day for a "militia member" who tried to checkpoint me whilst I was traveling on a public road. Private road that belongs to you, fine, I don't care.
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no evidence? you don't believe?
"Bundy denies that militia members set up checkpoints on public property. He said armed guards do stop and screen visitors at the gate to his ranch.
A group of militia members who stopped a neighboring rancher trucking cattle last Saturday to Arizona, about 12 miles to the east, were helping his son, Ryan Bundy, the family patriarch said. They wanted to ensure that Bundy cattle weren't being rustled.
A guard also is stationed on a dirt road leading to a gravel quarry on private land where DeLemus and his group have been camping for almost three weeks.
At a campsite with a sign dubbing it "Bunker Hill," Jason Scott Patrick, 42, from Bonaire, Georgia, described wielding a weapon during the standoff in a dry wash beneath the I-15 overpass."
you know the problem with yielding to loons? you always end up having to deal with em later
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you know the problem with yielding to loons? you always end up having to deal with em later
Too true, we shoulda dealt with loons like Lincoln, FDR, and LBJ while they were actively screwing things up. :)
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no evidence? you don't believe?
"Bundy denies that militia members set up checkpoints on public property. He said armed guards do stop and screen visitors at the gate to his ranch.
A group of militia members who stopped a neighboring rancher trucking cattle last Saturday to Arizona, about 12 miles to the east, were helping his son, Ryan Bundy, the family patriarch said. They wanted to ensure that Bundy cattle weren't being rustled.
A guard also is stationed on a dirt road leading to a gravel quarry on private land where DeLemus and his group have been camping for almost three weeks.
At a campsite with a sign dubbing it "Bunker Hill," Jason Scott Patrick, 42, from Bonaire, Georgia, described wielding a weapon during the standoff in a dry wash beneath the I-15 overpass."
you know the problem with yielding to loons? you always end up having to deal with em later
OK, the sniper guy is a different topic. We're talking about residents and travelers (not BLM) being stopped by militia. But you knew that.
Most of the rest sounds like private security, which I thought was legal. The guy they stopped with a truckful of cattle, we'd need more details. What does that mean, they stopped him? Flagged him down, ran him off the road, a road-block? Private land, or public road?
Evidence in terms of people saying that they saw militia members running checkpoints on public roads? I never denied that.
"Hard evidence," which is the term I used, like photo or video? How does no one have any of that? I haven't seen reports of victims contacting police about any of this. Have you?
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Why would it matter what type of road the folks are be8ng stopped on? Armed group of vigilantes stopping folks is ok now?
I am curious as to Bundy's position in his church and how they regard him and the clan
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If the road is on private property, and privately built and maintained, and the folks doing the stopping are the land owner or his agents, the yes, why wouldn't it be ok?
Now the articles are unclear as to whether those conditions have been met, but at least on the driveway to his house I find it likely that they have been.
12 miles away, stopping his neighbor? Sketchier. But wait, I got something for this:
i find the lack of noise from the other rancher telling id like to see tapes from that stopping if the other guy wasnt stealing cattle then theres no problem stopping to prove it his third cousin is a felon anyway so he deserved it
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12 mile away was off his ranch. What was his sons legal authority again?
I think if they'd actually caught a rustler he'd out it as evidence of what hes up against. Its telling to me that he brought it up. And apparently thinks he or his son had the right. Most mentally disturbed folks know they are right. I would indeed be interested in hearing more about the stop. In particular ask if he was intimidated by the millionaire with the large family posse and volunteer army
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If the road is on private property, and privately built and maintained, and the folks doing the stopping are the land owner or his agents, the yes, why wouldn't it be ok?
That's an interesting point. Does use of a private road subject one to vigilante search. I can't find a reference to that being the case. Heck entering secure gov installation they have warning signs sometimes citing the legal code that informs one that you are subject to search. Buddy's got a ton of kin in that part of the world but that will only carry you so far before someone gets bad hurt
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Found this while looking too. For grins and chuckles. http://www.dailypaul.com/133248/pulled-over-today-with-no-license-license-plate-or-registration
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I am not defending anybody here, nor have much of an opinion about stuff I don't actually know to be true.
But how is it any different than having the Secret Service disrupt, stop, check out, bear arms and prohibit free access and the ability to come and go for a citizen who has not been threatened and happens to have a public office or is a celebrity and a rancher who had been confronted by armed tactical agents of the federal government who went far beyond what might be considered appropriate for the situation.
Just wondering.
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That's an interesting point. Does use of a private road subject one to vigilante search. I can't find a reference to that being the case. Heck entering secure gov installation they have warning signs sometimes citing the legal code that informs one that you are subject to search. Buddy's got a ton of kin in that part of the world but that will only carry you so far before someone gets bad hurt
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You can also read Private Road as Private Driveway. Out in big rural areas a driveway that measures in miles isn't uncommon.
Also on big acerages you will find "private roads" all over the place. On some of my family's land what we called a road was little more than the tracks/ruts left over decades of driving across the dry areas, but we called it a road and if there were strangers driving on our "road" you could bet on them getting stopped and questioned.
Remember, the press is pretty much on your side so anything they can spin to make Bundy look worse will make print.
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The press? I am using bundy's own statement. He was the one that brought up his son and militia stopping a neighbor so they could determine his cows weren't being rustled.
Is it your contention his spread extended 12 miles? That the truck was stopped on his driveway? Not possible 12 miles away. Now since in his world he is not subject to the same restrictions mere mortals are he may well regard that road as his. That's the kinda thinking that's got him in trouble.
I may have posted this before
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-Ranch
But this is new. It appears the crazy is like yeast. Wait till it gets hot
http://www.breitbartunmasked.com/patriot-movement/paranoid-infighting-at-bundy-ranch/
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I am not defending anybody here, nor have much of an opinion about stuff I don't actually know to be true.
But how is it any different than having the Secret Service disrupt, stop, check out, bear arms and prohibit free access and the ability to come and go for a citizen who has not been threatened and happens to have a public office or is a celebrity and a rancher who had been confronted by armed tactical agents of the federal government who went far beyond what might be considered appropriate for the situation.
Just wondering.
I've never liked the "well they do it, so its ok for me to do it" line of reasoning.
If it was bundys property, I'm fine with it.
If not, then him and his jolly band of hypocrites can go to hell
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And lest we think it's the zomg msm Zionist now folks coloring the story here's the unmediated truth. http://intellihub.com/oathkeepers-stewart-rhodes-retreats-bundy-ranch-drone-strike-kill-zone-hotel-says-embedded-faction/
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I've never liked the "well they do it, so its ok for me to do it" line of reasoning.
If it was bundys property, I'm fine with it.
If not, then him and his jolly band of hypocrites can go to hell
I approve, if only because it bothers C&SD so much. =)
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Is it your contention his spread extended 12 miles?
I have no idea whether or not Bundy's deeded land is contiguous.
Lots of Montana ranches are checkerboarded: 2 or 3 sections (sq mi) here, 4 or 5 sections there, and another section or two way over that away. Just a few years ago I participated in a ~30 mile cattle drive coming down from summer pasture to one of two of the guy's "home ranches."
It ain't like the east coast where you can graze a couple cows in your backyard ;/
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12 mile away was off his ranch. What was his sons legal authority again?
I think if they'd actually caught a rustler he'd out it as evidence of what hes up against. Its telling to me that he brought it up. And apparently thinks he or his son had the right. Most mentally disturbed folks know they are right. I would indeed be interested in hearing more about the stop. In particular ask if he was intimidated by the millionaire with the large family posse and volunteer army
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So true . . .
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I approve, if only because it bothers C&SD so much. =)
Well of course
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And equal time for Rhodes http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/rumor-of-drone-strike-at-bundy-ranch-sends-oath-keepers-packing/86049
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I have no idea whether or not Bundy's deeded land is contiguous.
Lots of Montana ranches are checkerboarded: 2 or 3 sections (sq mi) here, 4 or 5 sections there, and another section or two way over that away. Just a few years ago I participated in a ~30 mile cattle drive coming down from summer pasture to one of two of the guy's "home ranches."
It ain't like the east coast where you can graze a couple cows in your backyard ;/
His deeded land is 160 acres The rest is what he's squatted on. The brietbart article has a map
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I'm with CS&D on this one- illegal road blocks and unwarranted searches are tools reserved for police use only.
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I'm with CS&D on this one- illegal road blocks and unwarranted searches are tools reserved for police use only.
Being serious for a second, yes.
And turning the whole "The .gov does it!" defense on it's head, if we don't like it when the .gov does it, why in hell should we like it if they're doing it? :P
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^^^^^
But, but, but! Patriots! Gunz! Standing up to the Man! Why do you hate freedom? =D
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Being serious for a second, yes.
And turning the whole "The .gov does it!" defense on it's head, if we don't like it when the .gov does it, why in hell should we like it if they're doing it? :P
Depends.
If one is seeking to set an example of moral and constitutional rectitude, avoidance of such acts is the best COA.
If you are at war with the gov't or the gov't is at war with you, though, all bets & rules are off.
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And if you endure it watch the you tube vids. See the face the world sees as repping gun owners tea partners oath keepers etc.
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Being serious for a second, yes.
And turning the whole "The .gov does it!" defense on it's head, if we don't like it when the .gov does it, why in hell should we like it if they're doing it? :P
I was being serious.
Its best not to emulate an illegitimate government if one is going to fight an illegitimate government.
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Ok, so nearly a page has gone by since I last checked in, and nobody (not even our resident Google Fu Grand Master and Bundy Debunker) has unearthed anything to substantiate that militia are subjecting Nevadans to vigilante check-points.
We have one incident that might be questionable, if we had more details, and that's about it.
Interesting.
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Ok, so nearly a page has gone by since I last checked in, and nobody (not even our resident Google Fu Grand Master and Bundy Debunker) has unearthed anything to substantiate that militia are subjecting Nevadans to vigilante check-points.
We have one incident that might be questionable, if we had more details, and that's about it.
Interesting.
why you heroworshipping bundy? lay down with dogs get up with fleas. or is that just the zionist ms talking cause everyone who doubts reports that attempt to slander people who dont like the feds is just racist troofers.
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Sorry, cassandraandsarasbalog. I forgot that one key piece of evidence is MILITIA MEMBERS. HAVING GUNS!!! NEAR COMMUNITY LOCATIONS! :O COMMUNITY LOCATIONS!!!!!
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What do you call stopping folks to check out the cows in their truck? And how do you characterize a stop conducted by self appointed cow cop bundy and his armed Dannites?
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What do you call stopping folks to check out the cows in their truck? And how do you characterize a stop conducted by self appointed cow cop bundy and his armed Dannites?
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Any objective observer, from my distance, would have to call it "something of which I've not seen the details."
Besides, that's one guy being stopped (whatever that means). That does not sound like a checkpoint to anyone who knows what the word means.
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(not even our resident Google Fu Grand Master and Bundy Debunker)
Who would that be?
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Any objective observer, from my distance, would have to call it "something of which I've not seen the details."
Besides, that's one guy being stopped (whatever that means). That does not sound like a checkpoint to anyone who knows what the word means.
Gawking at one truckload of cattle is not a checkpoint.
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Who would that be?
Why, CSD; the guy who seems most interesting in criticizing ole' Cliven, and the guy who likes to dig up links on things. He's actually pretty good at both, but he's not doing such a good job in this thread. I suspect there is something to this talk of militia being obnoxious, in the post-stand-off aftermath, but I doubt it's as far-reaching as the Representative suggests.
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Gawking at one truckload of cattle is not a checkpoint.
If you stop it with a group of armed men what is it?
What is their right to stop and check ID? Verify residency? You watch the video of the militia meeting? A group all dressed with nowhere to go. And a group looking to DO something , anything is a recipe for at the least stupid if not tragedy
If the drone strikes don't get em first.
Nice to post stuff on the net show the world an indelible image of your movement . Jt ready style
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If you stop it with a group of armed men what is it?
Impersonating police officers?
Not quite.
They didn't drag the driver out of the truck and taze him.
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Impersonating police officers?
Not quite.
They didn't drag the driver out of the truck and taze him.
"I zing the body electric."
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Maybe they tazed the cows with one of those electric poker thingees.
So do we have anything to go other then fistful's will imagination and CSD's prayerful hope that some militia member has an ND allowing the BLM SWAT team to go all WACO on the Bundys?
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If you stop it with a group of armed men what is it?
Dunno about you -- I call it "Assault with a deadly weapon." I'm pretty sure that's where it would fit in the Nevada penal code.
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If you stop it with a group of armed men what is it?
What is their right to stop and check ID? Verify residency?
;/ Again, where's the evidence that any militia groups are stopping people, outside of private property, and checking ID? I would be more willing to believe such if people were calling police, instead of writing their congressman, and having him write a vague letter.
"A group of armed men." Double- ;/ Any group of men might have weapons. That doesn't automatically make their actions suspicious. Like I already told you, some of us want to have details before we jump to conclusions like a frog on speed. (Details like, did the armed men have ARs at the low ready, or were they returning from a hockey game, carrying hockey sticks?)
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Again why do you doubt clivens account of son and friends stopping his neighbor?
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Again why do you doubt clivens account of son and friends stopping his neighbor?
You crack me up.
Where did I doubt that?
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CSD,
I apologize.
I just checked the dictionary, and found out that I was wrong about the definitions of a great many words in our English lexicon. After re-reading the accounts, I now understand that "we stopped a guy with a load of cattle," when read carefully, actually means, "we set up a roadblock on the highway, and made multiple car-loads of people show us their credentials before we would let them pass."
The egg on my face right now is, well, it's just really something.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHmFFV08.jpg&hash=fc53205da632fbe0c8a22bfbc47c7a8a9f4db6e5)
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How many folks do they need to stop? How many folks do you imagine come down those back roads in a day? Outside the oath keepers deserting and the remaining militia folks?
Gonna get warm soon will thin the herd fast. Of course if there is another cattle gather the mortality will be much higher
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Before I answer your questions, do we agree that I'm not doubting Bundy's statement that they stopped a guy hauling cattle?
Do we further agree that his statement falls far short of saying that the man was stopped by force, or threat of force?
Do we also agree that Bundy's statement about the truck being stopped seems unconnected to any alleged militia checkpoint?
Can we also agree that it's rather odd how little evidence for any illegal checkpoints has thus far appeared (at least that I've seen)? Why would the media be ignoring the Bundys now?
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Maybe . No. No. Yes.
Anytime a group of armed men stop me there is a threat of force. And if it's the folks in the vid "in charge" at the bundys the threat is high
The statement about his son stopping the truck was made in an interview after he was asked about and denied checkpoints. I don't think clivens in charge if his army. It's taken a life of its own.
It remains to be seen how much the locals will tolerate. He's lads and that counts for a lot out there. They have no love for outsiders. Something that may haunt bundy soon
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Maybe . No. No. Yes.
Anytime a group of armed men stop me there is a threat of force. And if it's the folks in the vid "in charge" at the bundys the threat is high
The chuckles continue.
There's video of Checkpoint Bundy, now? If so, I missed it. I don't know how else you would know that the men who stopped the suspected cattle-rustler were armed at all, much less armed in any way other than merely having holstered sidearms, like most of us carry sidearms on a regular basis. And it would be interesting if you were to claim that having a holstered sidearm is in itself a threat of force. If they had any visible or concealed guns at all.
To answer your questions, I don't know how many people were coming down the back roads.
Most of the evidence is in the nature of people being subject to private security, on private property. On private land, how many people are stopped is up to the property owner/manager, and completely at his discretion, what contracts are in place, etc.
On public roads, no one should be stopped by force, or the threat of force, by any vigilante group.
OK?
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Checkpoint bundy is the name they gave their camp.
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Checkpoint bundy is the name they gave their camp.
Oh, funny. Didn't know that. I was referring to a video of the guy getting stopped with the truckful o' beef critters, if any such exists.
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That fact was cleverly hidden in the first or second paragraph of one of the articles
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I. Don't believe video of the truck being stopped we have to rely on clivens explaining why it was ok for his boy to do it.
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That fact was cleverly hidden in the first or second paragraph of one of the articles
Ok, I checked through all of the relevant articles. That must have been in one of those six dozen articles you posted, without managing to dig up any corroboration of the checkpoint rumors. Sorry, didn't bother to read those.
I. Don't believe video of the truck being stopped we have to rely on clivens explaining why it was ok for his boy to do it.
Don't believe in English, either, apparently. ;/ Not sure what you're trying to say.
So two pages later, no more evidence for something that would have to have been very public, and happened to numerous people, over a long enough time for police or press to arrive. And here I thought you really, really liked to find the dirt on this guy. You're letting us down, here. Guess I'll just keep watching the news.
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the only people other than .gov who ever stopped me on a public road in Nevada was burningman idiots - they were shocked when I started asking them if i was being detained and telling them i want my lawyer now, i want their LE credentials for inspections - they were even more pissed off when I drove around them in a different direction then they wanted me to go.
I do not even need to read the whole thread to smell the bovine excrement - people who stop rural and mess with nevadans don't live long, whether they are LE/militia or burners ....
I was talking to a sheriff out in the outback and he confirmed official policy is to "take it easy" when dealing with locals- locals are the only back up- even the helicopter takes at least an hour in a perfect situation.
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So two pages later,
Three sir!
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Three sir!
So far, we're only at about two and a fifth pages. It will be three, once we reach the fourth page. Yes, I'm a huge nerd.
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If I came home to find a box truck coming out of my driveway, I would stop them too.
And yes I'm armed.
The funny thing is that I have this magic ability to figure that something I'm doing might look suspicious to somebody else, and not get offended when we stop and talk.
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The fact that CSD couldn't get his JBT on when the BLM pulled out has him itchin' for them to go back and "finish the job".
CSD, call the BLM and have them accuse Bundy of attacking a radio transmitter inside the German border on BLM land, and then they can get their Blitzkreig on, since it's taking far too long for someone in their "Camp/Checkpoint" to have that ND they soooooo desperately need to begin the kitten massacre and puppy stomping.
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The fed.gov desperately needs its remote Nevada Lebensraum.
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The Sudetenland Tortoises simply wish to be part of the
Fatherland Motherland Homeland.
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The fed.govChinese Rare Earth Element Mining Corps desperately need its remote Nevada Lebensraum.
\
FIFY
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If I came home to find a box truck coming out of my driveway, I would stop them too.
And yes I'm armed.
The funny thing is that I have this magic ability to figure that something I'm doing might look suspicious to somebody else, and not get offended when we stop and talk.
If he had stopped em in his driveway you'd have a point. 12 miles away? Not so much unless you are signed up for the he owns the whole 150 square miles
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Read an interesting bit from the cattlemens assoc. It mentioned that 16000 other ranchers seem to be able to pay for their grazing. Shocked I was
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Read an interesting bit from the cattlemens assoc. It mentioned that 16000 other ranchers seem to be able to pay for their grazing. Shocked I was
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Wunnerful. Perhaps they should have paid Bundy's fees too. [tinfoil]
Just WHO are these 16000 ranchers, anyway? And where'd the cattlemens' assoc. get that number?
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Read an interesting bit from the cattlemens assoc. It mentioned that 16000 other ranchers seem to be able to pay for their grazing. Shocked I was
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Just, you know, not grazing where the desert tortoise are. Since the BLM doesn't issue grazing permits in Bundy's area anymore. Thereby killing off that industry in that location. Except one, apparently. But don't worry, he'll be dead soon. And his death will save a tortoise. Or something.
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Here's a piece that outlines some very important dates. I particular when the ranch was actually bought and when bundys actually showed up
http://www.cattlenetwork.com/cattle-news/Jolley-Five-Minutes-with-the-Cliven-Bundy-fiasco-256571791.html
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http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_25666440/truth-about-cliven-bundys-standoff-feds
Opinion piece
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Just, you know, not grazing where the desert tortoise are. Since the BLM doesn't issue grazing permits in Bundy's area anymore. Thereby killing off that industry in that location. Except one, apparently. But don't worry, he'll be dead soon. And his death will save a tortoise. Or something.
Not to spoil it by interjecting facts but how large is the area he was formerly permitted to graze? Not gonna count the extra he started using once he declared sovereignty . And how large is the area restricted by the tortoise protective measures?
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Not to spoil it by interjecting facts but how large is the area he was formerly permitted to graze? Not gonna count the extra he started using once he declared sovereignty . And how large is the area restricted by the tortoise protective measures?
If you'd like to interject those facts, please feel free.
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Lots of rehash here but one important thing is bundys family moved from Arizona to bunkerville and bought their 160 acres in 1948 not 1870. That's the first out and out lie I've seen cliven fly
http://www.factandmyth.com/conspiracy-theory/cliven-bundys-cattle-and-the-federal-land-grab
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Lots of rehash here but one important thing is bundys family moved from Arizona to bunkerville and bought their 160 acres in 1948 not 1870. That's the first out and out lie I've seen cliven fly
Okay, that's an interesting point =)
I bet if you go back and look at that purchase then you would find that the grazing lease was part of the contract.
Since we all like to talk about "property rights" :lol:
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and they are only good for 10 years aren't they? And it makes all the noise about his families rights predations the blm to be less than truthfull
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Just WHO are these 16000 ranchers, anyway? And where'd the cattlemens' assoc. get that number?
Dunno who they are but the Denver Post accepts that number.
There are about 16,000 ranchers across the country, and not a few in these parts. Ranchers pay relatively modest fees ($1.35 per head per month at present) to graze cattle on public land.
Read more: The truth about Cliven Bundy's standoff with the feds - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_25666440/truth-about-cliven-bundys-standoff-feds#ixzz3190H9Sbl
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse
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and they are only good for 10 years aren't they? And it makes all the noise about his families rights predations the blm to be less than truthfull
"renewable"
So you think people routinely pay huge sums for ranches that are largely leased land, with the expectation that all that land will be lost within 10 years ??? ;/
You still don't understand the West, and it's no good to try to explain it :facepalm:
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Clivens clan still in the news
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/14/how-cliven-bundy-and-the-land-rights-movement-are-screwing-native-americans.html
And more. This time from mr Rhodes perspective in the video
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/05/02/militiamen-and-oath-keepers-drew-weapons-threatened-to-kill-each-other/
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The BLM is also screwing native americans, over the same grazing issues.
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In the one report the rancher received 75 k in gov money as part of getting screwed over.
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