Author Topic: The drumbeat for more gun control continues  (Read 4699 times)

lee n. field

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2015, 12:00:07 PM »
I doubt that at all- he's very knowledgeable.
There have been many popes in the past that supported small arms bans on the peasant class.

the DeMecici popes, perhaps?  Very much entangled with the ruling class.
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Triphammer

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2015, 12:43:27 PM »
I found this on "Guns.com". Interesting that an individual this well protected thinks gunmakers are bad people.

SADShooter

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2015, 01:24:28 PM »
I found this on "Guns.com". Interesting that an individual this well protected thinks gunmakers are bad people.

Well, halberd production is fairly specialized these days. ;)
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Angel Eyes

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2015, 02:20:36 PM »
Well, halberd production is fairly specialized these days. ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard

Quote
The Swiss Guard use traditional weapons, such as a sword and a halberd, as well as modern weapons such as the SIG P220 and Glock 19 pistols, the Steyr TMP machine pistol and submachine guns like the Heckler & Koch MP5A3

I wonder if the Pontiff wants his guards to give up all that cool stuff.  I'm guessing not.

And just for fun:

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Balog

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2015, 03:50:42 PM »
I found this on "Guns.com". Interesting that an individual this well protected thinks gunmakers are bad people.

I really don't think that's what he's saying.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Triphammer

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2015, 07:33:06 PM »
I think that's exactly what he is saying;

TURIN, Italy, June 21 (Reuters) - People who manufacture weapons or invest in weapons industries are hypocrites if they call themselves Christian, Pope Francis said on Sunday.

http://www.trust.org/item/20150621183811-et1rd


MechAg94

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2015, 08:22:51 PM »
He would be better aimed talking about politicians and lobbyists who promote and profit from conflict, not just the manufacturers. 
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Balog

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2015, 12:34:41 AM »
I think that's exactly what he is saying;

TURIN, Italy, June 21 (Reuters) - People who manufacture weapons or invest in weapons industries are hypocrites if they call themselves Christian, Pope Francis said on Sunday.

http://www.trust.org/item/20150621183811-et1rd



Did you actually read the quote in the article you just linked? Because even if we accept that translation as accurate and strip it of context the quote is still not what the headline claims.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

makattak

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2015, 09:16:22 AM »
Did you actually read the quote in the article you just linked? Because even if we accept that translation as accurate and strip it of context the quote is still not what the headline claims.

They sensationalized it. He called them bad Christians.

However, I'm amused by the hypocrisy of saying that and then turning around and asking why no one bombed the rail lines.

I guess the Pope is a bad Christian, too.
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Balog

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2015, 12:55:29 PM »
They sensationalized it. He called them bad Christians.

However, I'm amused by the hypocrisy of saying that and then turning around and asking why no one bombed the rail lines.

I guess the Pope is a bad Christian, too.

No, he really didn't.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

makattak

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2015, 02:03:59 PM »
No, he really didn't.

No, really, he did:

Quote
"It makes me think of ... people, managers, businessmen who call themselves Christian and they manufacture weapons. That leads to a bit a distrust, doesn't it?" he said to applause.

He also criticised those who invest in weapons industries, saying "duplicity is the currency of today ... they say one thing and do another."

Fostering distrust and being duplicitous doesn't make you a bad Christian?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Balog

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2015, 02:12:48 PM »
No, really, he did:

Fostering distrust and being duplicitous doesn't make you a bad Christian?

He appears to have been talking about political trust in a more generalized sense, and then observed "When people do X it leads to other people having doubts about their trustworthiness." He did not say "You should not trust people who do X." Making the observation "When people do X, other people react in Y way" is not a moral judgement or recommendation.

For the second, he specified people who say one thing and then do another. Hypocritical may have been a better word choice (or translation?) but either way it's essentially a tautology.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

makattak

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2015, 02:25:30 PM »
He appears to have been talking about political trust in a more generalized sense, and then observed "When people do X it leads to other people having doubts about their trustworthiness." He did not say "You should not trust people who do X." Making the observation "When people do X, other people react in Y way" is not a moral judgement or recommendation.

For the second, he specified people who say one thing and then do another. Hypocritical may have been a better word choice (or translation?) but either way it's essentially a tautology.

As it is reported, it is clear he is saying Christians ought not to be manufacturing weapons because it leads to distrust. The statement (as reported) is unambiguous- he's making a clear denunciation of calling yourself a Christian but making weapons.

And yes, (as it was reported) he was calling people who invest in weapons manufacturers and call themselves Christians hypocrites. You don't think a hypocrite is a bad Christian?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Balog

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2015, 02:33:15 PM »
As it is reported, it is clear he is saying Christians ought not to be manufacturing weapons because it leads to distrust. The statement (as reported) is unambiguous- he's making a clear denunciation of calling yourself a Christian but making weapons.

And yes, (as it was reported) he was calling people who invest in weapons manufacturers and call themselves Christians hypocrites. You don't think a hypocrite is a bad Christian?

You are assuming facts not in evidence. Saying "doing X can lead to people having distrust of you" is not the same as "Doing X is bad" or even "People distrusting you is a bad thing." Saying "If your statements and action are at odds you are a hypocrite" and then giving an example of that sort of scenario is not the same as saying anyone who does the actions given in the scenario is a hypocrite.

You're making assumptions about context that are unjustified. I don't know if the pope was or was not making condemnations of people who are involved in the arms trade, or what specifications he may have been putting on that. For example, saying "I think drug dealers are bad" is not the same as "I think pharmacists are bad" even though in both cases the person in question is selling people drugs.

When you read a media report about this pope's words, your first reaction should be "In what way is the media twisting and distorting his actual words to bolster their agenda by attempting to show that he supports it?"
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Mannlicher

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2015, 04:11:56 PM »
in my ever so humble, but studied opinion, this Pope is a communist community organizer.  Just happens to be ordained.  Kinda reminds me of barack hussein, in so many ways.

HankB

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2015, 03:11:18 PM »
Every time he opens his mouth, he's misquoted. Nearly every time I hear about something Francis says, it sounds solidly left-of-center. And then I find out that his actual words, in context, were in the center or center-right. I don't know if the meed-juh have just convinced themselves that he's on their side, or if they are trying to dispirit conservatives by making him seem that way, or if it's both.
Was the AP misrepresenting the Vatican's (and by extension, the Pope's) position when it reported that the Vatican signed a treaty with the "State of Palestine?"
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brimic

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Re: The drumbeat for more gun control continues
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2015, 03:29:28 PM »
in my ever so humble, but studied opinion, this Pope is a communist community organizer.  Just happens to be ordained.  Kinda reminds me of barack hussein, in so many ways.

Yes. He's pretty much an obama in a pope hat.
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