Girl scouts and rules for men

[Declaration Day]

My wife and I recently moved into our current home, and we registered our two young daughters in the local Girl Scout troop.

Today, I was made aware of a rule that I had never heard of.

We were meeting up in the parking lot of the kids' elementary school to go on a field trip.  I had with me my two daughters, and our neighbor's daughter.  I was told that I could not drive any girls, except my own, without the presence of one of the female scout leaders.   This rule is applied to all men, no exceptions.

I was furious!  So much so that I nearly took my girls and left.  I said that the rule was not only a double standard, but that it was fundamentally wrong.  In this country, we do not punish (or put on probation) people because we think there's a chance that they might commit a crime.

I put the wishes of my children first, and we went on the trip.  As it turned out, I didn't even have to drive; we rode in someone else's van.

I am going to raise hell about this issue.  I'd like to know what feminazi got her hands into Girl Scouting and declared all men to be pedophiles.  As you might imagine, I was very insulted.  But of course, by the same feminazi ideology, men's feelings don't matter.

Does anyone else think this is crazy?  Should I pull my girls out of the organization?  Your thoughts, please.

[Guest]

The boy scouts rule is a little different: Men are acceptable but there must always be at least two adults present, of whatever gender. I would think the same rule would be appropriate for girl scouts.

[Declaration Day]

The boy scouts rule is a little different: Men are acceptable but there must always be at least two adults present, of whatever gender. I would think the same rule would be appropriate for girl scouts.

But with girl scouts, it must be a woman.

[telewinz]

I went through the same thing with my daughter. I was very active with the Boy Scouts but when it came to the Girls Scout "thanks but no thanks" was their policy.  In today's society I understand and I guess it's a wise policy but it is a sad statement in general.  Stay AWAY!

[280plus]

Never did any Girl Scout stuff but plenty of Boy Scout. I was taken back by the rule where no adult can be alone with a Scout. I understand why but that don't make it right. I had a kid once, mentally challenged so the rest of the kids didn't bother with him too much unless it was to pick on him. Rejected and literally ignored by Dad because of his mental problems as well. (I never liked "Dad") Lot's of emotional problems. He liked to play B-Ball so I had taken to playing a little 1 on 1 with him at summer camp when we could and was making some progress with him. Next thing you know I'm being told this is a no-no. Now I was pretty ticked off at the insinuations but even more so because the KID suffered the most. I had to explain to him WHY we couldn't play 1 on 1 anymore. Very tough.

Think of it this way. They are NOT trying to protect the child from you. They are trying to protect YOU from false allegations of impropriety by the child. That's the way I understood it. It wouldn't be the first time a kid was po'd at an adult and made false accusations for revenge. Those accusations even if proven to be false (hard without a witness) would haunt you for the rest of your days.

Sad but true.

I'll tell you another sad but true. Most of the adults involved were MOMS. Not a whole lot of Dads participating in what used to be a father / son thing. It's led to a general wussification of the Boy Scouts IMHO.

[Declaration Day]

280 plus, thanks for your reply. I understand that the "two adults" policy is about liability, and I agree that it is a good idea.

 I have a problem with the fact that, in our girl scout troop, there is a double standard for men. Women can be alone with the girls, but men must be accompanied by a woman.

[Standing Wolf]

I have a problem with the fact that, in our girl scout troop, there is a double standard for men. Women can be alone with the girls, but men must be accompanied by a woman.

How better to teach girls to distrust men?

[280plus]

Women can be alone with the girls, but men must be accompanied by a woman.

Yea. I'd have a problem with that myself. That's pretty much "sexual discrimination". (CORRECTION: GENDER discrimination) I'd make it very clear to them what I think of their policies at one of their board meetings. I'd want to know why they are discriminating against men. I'd also make it very clear to them that I would be taking my child as well as whatever special talents I had to offer elsewhere in response to these policies. Given the kind of BS I had to put up with dealing with other people and their brats in the world of the Boy Scouts I suggest you won't be missing much. IMHO if the policy was "no ADULT may be alone with a child" that's one thing but when they proclaim that only MALE adults are not allowed to be alone with them they are stepping over the line. I guess the question is, how much of a fuss would you like to make of it and is it worth your time? Having a daughter of my own I would have had a big problem with these people had I ever run up against this "policy". Fortunately, she has never expressed any interest in them.

After a few years of Boy Scout BS I figured out I really didn't need them to take my kids camping and hiking anyways and have had nothing to do with the organization since. I consider it their loss.

Honsetly, if a guy with no kids came off the street aand tried to involve himself in EITHER organization I'd be a little leary but the FATHER of one of the children? That's sending the wrong message. "All males are evil and can't be trusted" Is that what you want them to teach your kid?

[gaston_45]

I am divorced, have two daughters, and have them almost all of the time.  This isn't just a problem with the scouts, this happens everywhere.   Take a simple trip to the restroom.  

Women have it easy, it doesn't matter what sex the kids are, they go in with mom.  Try taking two girls into a men's room sometime and see how fast you are reported!  Can't go into a women's room with them for obvious reasons. You want to see some wierd looks? Wait for your daughters outside a restroom sometime.   Mine are 4 and 6, the oldest is old enough to go to the restroom by herself, but if I turn the youngest loose she likes playing in the water in the sink and  I have to find some strange woman to send in and get her out.  

That's just one instance, you get the same looks a lot of other places too.  Anymore it is just easier to avoid going to most places then to deal with being turned in to security everytime the kids have to use a restroom in public.  It's time to take the feminist crap out of government and public institutions.

[280plus]

Another story. My "step" daughter has a few emotional problems of her own, Mostly immaturity brought on by ADHD. The wife and I attended a few group sessions with other parents. Most or ALL of whom were there by court order. We were voluntary. The leader of the group, a male psychologist I believe, made the statement that as our daughters got older we were to push them away when they attempted physical contact like hugging and kissing. "Men, you've got to push your daughters away." I thought it was tough enough to get the kid to accept me and allow and participate in displays of affection now THIS IDIOT is telling me to push her away. Makes no sense. Now a father can't hug his daughter after a certain age? That's just stupid in my book. I didn't go to many more sessions after that.

Then there's the female psychologist. When I first met Rachel (step daughter) she had major mistrust of men because they would come, mess with mom for awhile, use the kid to get close to Mom and then disappear. So she basically didn't want me around. She wouldn't let me hug her and stuff with the idea that it would somehow make me go away. So she tells the female pshychologist that she doesn't like me touching her. It immediately turns into "Well, where and HOW is he touching you?" God forbid a guy should give a young girl a hug or any other form of innocent physical affection. It MUST be sexual in nature, can't be anything else. So I went for at LEAST a year where I was "forbidden" to touch her in any way and had to maintain my "space" from her. What a load of doo doo. I'd venture these psychologist's and their current trends are doing more to DAMAGE family relations than to normalize them. After she got used to the idea that I wasn't going to go away things did change and we have a much better relationship. She's still a teenage girl PITA but as she gets older she's doing much better.

[Winston Smith]

Declaration: Is this about you, or is it about your kids?

PS: Umm... yeah, guys haven't been allowed to be alone with girls they are not married to for pretty much all of civiliization. To blame it on "feminazis" is pretty ludicrous. The fact that now people of similar age and dissimilar genders can congregate freely is something relatively new. Maybe it'll take a little longer for dissimilar age and dissimilar gender people to be able to.

[Harold Tuttle]

Heck, the rule is prolly more to protect the organization from lawsuits when the girls accuse an innocent man of something evil.

[Stand_watie]

I'll be the first to admit that I have a double standard about men and my daughter.

Are all or the majority of men pedophiles? Heck no! Are the majority of pedophiles men (or teenage boys), yeah, I think so. Even perfectly normal men (from a psychiatric standpoint) are a lot greater a danger to sexually developed but underage girls than the obverse I think. The same applies for homosexual men and boy scouts or similarly intimate scenarios's - if I had a son I wouldn't want him sharing a tent with a homosexual man - just as I wouldn't want my daughter sharing a tent with a straight man.

The psychologist business about pushing your daughter (I'm assuming biological daughter) away when she wants to hug or kiss you sounds like a load of crap to me. Maybe if you have a step-daughter that already has sexual issues. Definitely pushing away from everybody else's daughters is just good sense

... Dont stand, dont stand so
Dont stand so close to me

Loose talk in the classroom
To hurt they try and try
Strong words in the staffroom
The accusations fly...

[280plus]

None of this stuff started with the Boy Scouts until they started finding out it was becoming a haven for male on young boy pedophiles. So they may SAY that lawsuits and protecting your reputation is the reasoning but I'm guessing there's more to it than that. I have no ongoing history with the Girl Scouts so I can't tell you what the policies were 35 years ago or whether this policy is more recent. I'd be interested to hear from somebody who CAN tell me these things.

I just think the whole thing is a sad commentary on today's society.

I tell you something else, if belonging to and participating in an organization  puts me at such a risk of false accusation and character assasination (sp?), I'd prefer to not belong to the organization. Which, incidentally, was one of the main reasons I left the BSA. I'd rather not put myself at such risk. The other reason(s) were only about 20% of the adults participated. The rest thought we were a babysitting service. Which was still ok, cause it was for the kids. The clincher though is neither the vast majority of the parents NOR THEIR CHILDREN appreciated your efforts. Some of those kids were miserable little bastards and their parents weren't too far behind. That's what sewed it up for me.

Sorry I'm venting a little. 10 or so years later and it STILL ticks me off!

[Stand_watie]

None of this stuff started with the Boy Scouts until they started finding out it was becoming a haven for male on young boy pedophiles. So they may SAY that lawsuits and protecting your reputation is the reasoning but I'm guessing there's more to it than that. I have no ongoing history with the Girl Scouts so I can't tell you what the policies were 35 years ago or whether this policy is more recent. I'd be interested to hear from somebody who CAN tell me these things.

I just think the whole thing is a sad commentary on today's society.

I tell you something else, if belonging to and participating in an organization  puts me at such a risk of false accusation and character assasination (sp?), I'd prefer to not belong to the organization. Which, incidentally, was one of the main reasons I left the BSA. I'd rather not put myself at such risk. The other reason(s) were only about 20% of the adults participated. The rest thought we were a babysitting service. Which was still ok, cause it was for the kids. The clincher though is neither the vast majority of the parents NOR THEIR CHILDREN appreciated your efforts. Some of those kids were miserable little bastards and their parents weren't too far behind. That's what sewed it up for me.

Sorry I'm venting a little. 10 or so years later and it STILL ticks me off!

I'll add something to my opinion on this. We live in a world where child sex abuse is so common that being alone with other people's kids period puts you at risk for false accusations, not just by parents but by abused (by other people) and neglected kids who are so desperate for attention they'll say and do anything to get it.

[280plus]

Two things I avoid like the plague these days:

1. Being alone with and / or in charge of other people's kids.

2. Being alone with and / or in charge of other peoples cash registers.

[Declaration Day]

Declaration: Is this about you, or is it about your kids?

Well, it is about me and my desire to not be "watched" because of some statistic about pedophiles.
I thought I made my point quite clear.

I don't need a lecture about what percentages of pedophiles are men.
I fully understand the reason for the "two adults present" policy.
My problem is that the rule is biased against men.
If you'd read my posts and understand them, you *might* not feel the need to reply with condescending remarks.

Besides, if parents are concerned about who is going to be driving / associating with their kids, then they should take the time to get to know the other parents in the scout troop.  That is a parent's job anyway, right?

[280plus]

Well, it is about me and my desire to not be "watched" because of some statistic about pedophiles.

There's enough stress to go with any position in these organizations. Noone needs the added stress of worrying about being confronted with any false accusations or the misinterpretation of an innocent act if they are not walking on eggs every moment.

The psychologist business about pushing your daughter (I'm assuming biological daughter) away when she wants to hug or kiss you sounds like a load of crap to me

Just for the record, as I have stated earlier she is NOT my biological daughter, but I don't recognize the difference. Mr psychologist WAS however talking to other men in reference to their biological daughters. Actually, I felt like he had a few problems of his own. I also feel the female psychologist  has her own issues with men. They say they have no choice, they need to be "careful". I say at the risk of damaging an already tenuous family relationship? She set the development of a normalized relationship with my step daughter back a year or so with her input. Is that her job? The kid was playing her like a piano. She (the kid) was looking for a way to drive a wedge between myself and mommy and she used that woman like an old sock. Even when I pointed this out to the supposedly educated child "expert" she refused to accept it.

I don't want to drift any father away from the original topic now and I apologize for doing so in the first place.

[SalukiFan]

Boy, I have to laugh just a little bit about this thread:

"Yeah, men are about 300% more likely to molest children than women but that doesn't mean men should be treated any differently than women around children!  We are being discriminated against!!!"

You guys, with the exception of Stand_watie, sound so, well, P.C.!  

Its just funny because I picture many of you as people who would be outraged if the TSA pulled a little old lady out of line at an airport for an extra security check and let young Arab guys through.

But before everyone flames me, let me say that I agree with you that it is not the best policy for the Girl Scouts to be following.  The Girls Scouts do eliminate a lot of risk through this policy and I havent ever heard anything about any molestation scandals with them, but this policy has too great of a negative impact.  I agree that if they are going to have such a policy, the policy should be "two adults" at all times, not just when it comes to men.  

Girls need to be taught to be discriminating about men, not to fear all men as potential rapists, murderers and child molesters.  Are males more likely than females to molest children?  Yes, about 80-90% of child molesters are male.  Are all men just looking for an opportunity to molest children?  Of course not!  

We need to teach children practical skills to tell the wolves from the sheepdogs and to identify threats.  Unfortunately, more and more children are growing up without fathers or other male role models and too many women are quick to instill fear and distrust of men in their children.  Girls that are raised this way often wind up either dating/marrying a succession of creeps and then complain that all men are scum or, if they miraculously identify and marry a nice guy and then spend their lives making that guy miserable.  

Instilling indiscriminate fear of all men could screw up these girls for life.  Its much better to limit childrens risk through having more supervision and structuring activities in such a way that children cant be isolated and preyed upon.  I sympathize with you guys who have to worry about the suspicions of others when all you want to do is help some kids.  Nobody wants to have to walk on eggshells and worry about sexual abuse accusations.   I hope that the Girl Scouts would consider changing their policy.  Maybe then the girls in scouting would have the opportunity to interact with decent men and learn who the good guys are!

[Declaration Day]

Salukifan:

I was afraid that I might sound too "PC".  I assure you that it was not my intention.  I am not calling the ACLU over this issue, nor are you going to see my face on the news leading a crusade.

Great post, by the way.

[280plus]

"Yeah, men are about 300% more likely to molest children than women but that doesn't mean men should be treated any differently than women around children!  We are being discriminated against!!!"

To me it's no more PC than saying some people do bad things with guns so ALL people with guns are bad. Again we see the vast majority of innocent taken to task over the actions of a few criminals. Anyhoo, I wasn't intending to sound PC but if I did I'll file it under , "OOPS, MY BAD!!"

[Guest]

Your crazy if you want the liability of being placed alone with young girls that arent your family. One misinterpreted word or glance and you get to register with the state every time you change your address. Its not worth the headache, and frankly I dont have a problem with the rules, if you do then send your kids and money elsewhere.

[Guest]

I think the no adults alone with a child procedure is still best. No one has to be singled out and made to feel like a criminal, the kids are safe and no one has any fear of being accused of something they didn't do.

Why not bring it up to your scout leader or with the Council?

[Guest]

to hell with the scouts anyway, join a 4H club.  round these part, they are pretty much untouched by bullshit PC.  We get the ocassional yuppy, but they either wash out or assimilate quick enough.  4H is one of the last bastions of rural, farm community, old fashioned stuff still in existence

[Strings]

>I don't need a lecture about what percentages of pedophiles are men.<

Ummm... just a small thing, really. Those percentages are based on the cases THAT ARE REPORTED. You have two factors working there: the reluctance most kids feel twords reporting in the first place (especially if the abuse is contrary to their sexual orientation). The second is societal: the difference between boys and girls...

 An adolescent boy, seduced by an older woman, would be seen as "just getting lucky" in many areas of the country, whereas switching the genders results in a "dirty old man". This dichotomy essentially says: "young girls are less capable than young boys, not as mature, more easily manipulated". Even if the system wouldn't see it that way, their PEERS would (and would probably give unholy hell to the boy who complained)...

 I've heard rumors of girls deciding to drop Scouts, without EVER giving reasons. MANY girls. And, were *I* a female pedophile, Girl Scouts would be prime hunting grounds... ESPECIALLY with the above mentioned rule. Remember: we call pedophiles "predators" for a reason. And ANY predator goes where it has easiest access to it's chosen prey...