Author Topic: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan  (Read 9974 times)

280plus

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Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« on: April 19, 2011, 06:52:48 AM »
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/04/marine-heavy-machine-gun-optics-041811w/

By Dan Lamothe - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Apr 18, 2011 8:37:34 EDT
   
In response to an urgent requirement from units downrange, Marines in Afghanistan will soon field a new optic for their heavy machine guns, including the .50-caliber M2 and 40mm Mark 19 grenade launcher.

A $2.34 million contract was awarded in March to Leupold & Stevens Inc., of Beaverton, Ore., for 728 scopes. Each scope sells individually for about $3,150, according to Marine documents.

Leupold calls them MK 8 Close Quarters Battle Scout Sniper optics, but Marine officials said they will not be used on sniper rifles. The heavy day optic, or HDO, will be a long-range sighting system for heavy machine guns, documents say.

The urgent need statement was submitted in April 2010, and endorsed by operating forces with 3rd Marine Division out of Okinawa, Japan. The M2 and MK19 have effective ranges of at least 3,500 meters and 1,700 meters, respectively, but no optics were fielded that allowed Marines to consistently engage enemies at those distances, the documents state.

“The currently provided iron, image intensified and thermal sighting system either offer limited detection ranges or do not enable the required employment methods, which are based largely on the need for range-corrected aiming points, regardless of range, lighting condition or sighting device,” the document states.

The new optic will be used with Leupold’s Marine Tactical Milling Reticle, or M-TMR. It was designed to prevent Marines from needing to perform math on the fly to estimate range and to work in open desert, heavy cover and urban terrain.

Leupold officials said they have gone to extremes to ensure the optic is capable of withstanding shock and vibration. It will be mounted on the weapon with the Ballistic Extended Rail Mount, or BERM, which provides Picatinny rail space for optics and other equipment, Marine officials said.

The Corps bought the scopes through a sole-source contract, meaning it could find no one else capable of providing them in a timely fashion. This effort continues the Corps’ shift toward fielding day optics on nearly every infantry weapon. In the last few years, Marine officials have fielded optics for the 5.56mm M16A4 rifle, M4 carbine, and M249 squad automatic weapon and the 7.62 mm M240B machine gun.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2011, 07:39:46 AM »
I've read that universal issue of optics for infantry rifles brings an amazing performance boost to the common infantryman.

Is it the same with machineguns?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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French G.

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2011, 08:07:42 AM »
I'm sure it does, it is very good to see pretty much every Marine with an ACOG, just worry that it will be the death of iron sight marksmanship.
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280plus

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 08:09:02 AM »
Carlos Hathcock turned a regular .50 cal MG into a sniping weapon by adding a scope back in the 1960s. That's where the idea for the .50 cal sniper rifle came from IIRC. I can't see this being a bad thing, unless the enemy gets their hands on it, of course.
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2011, 08:52:21 AM »
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/leupold-mark-8-cqbss/


Reticle: Horus H27 with illuminated dot; M-TMR with illuminated cross-hairs (tested)
Lens Coating: index matched lens system with diamond coat
Adjustment Markings: pinch & turn auto-locking 0.10 mil
Main Tube Diameter: 34 mm
Eyepiece Design: lockable fast-focus
Magnification: 1.1-8X
Linear Field of View: 31-4.9 meters at 100 meters
Exit Pupil: 8.0-3.0 mm
Weight: 23.2 ozs.
Length: 11¾"
Mounting Area: 6½"
Objective Aperture: 24 mm
Eye Relief: 3.7"-3.3"
Elevation Adjustment Range: 100 m.o.a.
Windage Adjustment Range: 100 m.o.a.; BDC rings are available for MK 262 Mod 1 77-gr. 
5.56x45 mm NATO and M118 LR 175-gr. 7.62x51 mm NATO
Accessories: flip-open lens covers and a 2½" sun shade are standard.
Suggested Retail Price: $4,000

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MechAg94

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2011, 10:07:53 AM »
So how much does the Mk19 drop at max range?  Doesn't that have sort of a rainbow trajectory?
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Fly320s

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2011, 11:54:04 AM »
So how much does the Mk19 drop at max range?  Doesn't that have sort of a rainbow trajectory?
A whole bunch. There is an article about the Mk19 GMG in one of the gun mags. To reach it's maximum range, the rounds climb to 70 feet.

I'm not sure how the CQBSS scope will work on that.
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erictank

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2011, 11:59:34 AM »
Quote
Leupold calls them MK 8 Close Quarters Battle Scout Sniper optics

"Close Quarters Battle" and "Scout Sniper" - aren't those two phrases, like, mutually-exclusive? ???

PTK

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 01:08:32 PM »
Not really. I'm betting that Leupold is interested in making sure that people know the scopes can be used for either purpose. From the looks of them, they sure are built like a tank, though!
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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 01:26:19 PM »
I've heard stories of VN guys pounding in stakes with their Leupolds with no effect on the scope.
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PTK

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 02:45:55 PM »
...I really hope that no one is that dumb.  =|
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MechAg94

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 03:07:46 PM »
So are we going to have someone come around and say the military should buy two for each rifle so a spare is available when one gets sent back for repairs? 
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dm1333

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 04:14:03 PM »
Quote
I've read that universal issue of optics for infantry rifles brings an amazing performance boost to the common infantryman.

Is it the same with machineguns?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Yes, I had the chance to fire an M240 with an optic from a moving boat (20-25 kts) at a target on shore.  The difference in the number of hits between optics and iron sights was noticeable.  Same thing for an M14 from the same boat.

HankB

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2011, 04:18:18 PM »
I wish I could see Leupold's manufacturing lines to see what makes these particular scopes worth over $3k . . . several times more than many of their other models.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2011, 04:49:48 PM »
The new optic will be used with Leupold’s Marine Tactical Milling Reticle, or M-TMR. It was designed to prevent Marines from needing to perform math

ROFL  :laugh: 


...I really hope that no one is that dumb.  =|

Even a Marine would know to use an e-tool, rock, rifle butt, Ka-Bar pommel, or just about ANYTHING else. Most scopes are pretty light, anyway. Wouldn't be much use as hammers.



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280plus

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2011, 06:23:29 PM »
All I can do is tell you the story I heard.  =D
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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2011, 07:07:46 PM »
"Close Quarters Battle" and "Scout Sniper" - aren't those two phrases, like, mutually-exclusive? ???

Not when you're running an optic that can switch between 1x power for close in use to 4-8x power for longer ranges.

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birdman

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2011, 08:55:14 PM »
I wish I could see Leupold's manufacturing lines to see what makes these particular scopes worth over $3k . . . several times more than many of their other models.

The ones with the horus reticles are 2500ish, throw in some additional robustness and type-testing to make them suitable for USMC, and yeah, 4k isn't that out of line.

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2011, 09:02:26 PM »
I wish I could see Leupold's manufacturing lines to see what makes these particular scopes worth over $3k . . . several times more than many of their other models.

Honestly, I'm a bit tired of this. There is a reason why quality stuff can often cost more, and this is doubly so for optics. Much of Leupold's line is civilian/hunting grade. It's their bread and butter. They will replace/repair just about anything broken, but it's not made to extremely high durability standards.

Insanely durable and usable optics cost money. Lots and lots of money. $4K for a durable variable power scope is not out of line in the least, it's what stuff costs. 



 

 

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drewtam

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2011, 11:43:51 PM »
Speaking of quality optics, seems like an independent test company could be set up to measure the quality of various scopes & acogs. I am not aware of any "consumer report" reviews that can provide real test results on glass distortion, clarity, and focus.

I'm no optics expert, but I have to imagine that a lot of it could be measured with some basic sets of lasers and photo sensors to independently review manufacturers' products.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2011, 11:46:34 PM »
Why do we need that, when we have magazine articles that begin with, "The elk were making their way slowly down the slope, as I eased my rifle into position..."
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HankB

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2011, 12:46:00 PM »
Speaking of quality optics, seems like an independent test company could be set up to measure the quality of various scopes & acogs. I am not aware of any "consumer report" reviews that can provide real test results on glass distortion, clarity, and focus.

I'm no optics expert, but I have to imagine that a lot of it could be measured with some basic sets of lasers and photo sensors to independently review manufacturers' products.
It takes some hardware to do a proper job. You'll need a spectroradiometer and a collimated white light source to measure spectral transmission across the entire visual range. Objectively evaluating resolution should include MTF (Modulation Transfer Function) testing, which normally requires a good collimated source and (for an afocal system) a good reference lens, along with an appropriate image analyzer and associated software. Add a few miscellaneous stages and such so you can measure off-axis results, too.

The presence of a reticle in a riflescope is an added complication in interpreting the results.

It CAN be done, but there really isn't enough of a market - that is, a paying market - to justify the up-front costs of setting up a "consumer report" type of operation for sporting optics.
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birdman

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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2011, 02:45:13 PM »
A whole bunch. There is an article about the Mk19 GMG in one of the gun mags. To reach it's maximum range, the rounds climb to 70 feet.

I'm not sure how the CQBSS scope will work on that.

-20/40/50+ MOA mount.  Given an internal elevation range of 100MOA, close range and then a total of 100MOA elevation could be obtained, which would take care of the rainbow.   Similar, but more extreme to what is done on the LR rifles...my 338 comes stock with a -20MOA rail, which gives me 70MOA total, enough to reach out to 1800+yd without a holdover.  Otherwise, it would be limited to <1450. (btw, that 338lm trajectory "rainbows" up almost 40 feet to get to 1800yd (and that's with a 2700fps muzzle velocity).


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Re: Optics for .50-cal guns coming to Afghanistan
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2011, 06:11:06 PM »
Okay, dumb question time....

(this presumes an M2 or Mk-19 mounted in a vehicle turret)

How is an optic with only a few inches of eye relief supposed to be properly used on a spade gripped weapon where you can't get your face that close up to the works? And if you do manage to scooch up that close to the backside of an M2 or Mk-19 without having it kick up into your septum, just how well is the gunner going to be able to hold said weapon steady and on target during shooting with any amount of magnification?