Author Topic: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment  (Read 5953 times)

RadioFreeSeaLab

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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Ron Paul on Entitlements
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2007, 05:02:40 PM »
http://youtube.com/watch?v=X9JIwxhRfug
I couldn't possibly agree more.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Marnoot

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Ron Paul on Drugs
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2007, 05:58:37 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8t7jqis2Mc

grin Apologies dasmi, I just liked the ambiguity of the subject-line too much not to. I didn't actually listen to/watch this one.

K Frame

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2007, 06:48:47 PM »
I've merged all of the "Ron Paul on..." threads.

Please don't start multiple threads for what are essentially the same overriding topic -- a candidate's political persona.

Thanks.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2007, 07:01:16 PM »
If only we could have Ron Paul's domestic views, without his head-in-the-sand view of Iraq.
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RocketMan

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2007, 09:07:28 PM »
If only we could have no more Ron Paul vs. this guy or that.  It's getting real old...
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roo_ster

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2007, 05:03:42 AM »
I like Ron Paul's demeanor and most of his views.  His supporters, however, are kindling desires in me to boot him like a toy poodle.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2007, 05:27:16 AM »
I like Ron Paul's demeanor and most of his views.  His supporters, however, are kindling desires in me to boot him like a toy poodle.


That I would pay to see. 
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Euclidean

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2007, 08:59:32 AM »
I'm voting for Ron Paul.

I'm not saying he's perfect.

I'm not saying he'd live up to his campaign promises.

But his policies overlap mine where it counts the most.

And I'm not saying he's electable or not electable.  I don't care.  It's about time for a dark horse candidate.

I am sick and tired of "liberals" who are anything but liberal.  James Madison was a liberal.  The people they call liberals now are socialists and statists.  None of the Demonrat candidates are acceptable to me.

I am sick and tired of "conservatives" who aren't conservative.  While Bush was the lesser of two evils (Kerry would have done just as much to damage our country if not more) he's not been a very good president at all.  All of the Repugnican candidates are "neocon" (for whatever that means) clones except for Ron Paul.

I'm voting my conscience.  I support Dr. Paul and encourage everyone else to as well.

roo_ster

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2007, 03:35:44 PM »
I like Ron Paul's demeanor and most of his views.  His supporters, however, are kindling desires in me to boot him like a toy poodle.


That I would pay to see. 
It is not RP's fault and I would feel bad while doing it.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Paddy

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2007, 09:46:20 AM »
Quote
If only we could have Ron Paul's domestic views, without his head-in-the-sand view of Iraq.
Seems to me (and the majority of Americans) that 'head-in-the-sand view of Iraq' better describes Bush and his supporters.  There were no WMD's, Iraq was not involved in 9/11, there (was) no Al-queda in Iraq nor was Iraq any security threat to the U.S.  In spite of all these facts with which the administration agrees, we continue to squander our resources, our young men and women and our money, in that rathole.  Is there some reason? (other than the fact that Iraq contains the world's second largest oil reserves)?

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Ron Paul on Education
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2007, 02:03:17 PM »
Has RP ever said anything pithy regarding education?

Like "the government has no business in education" or that sort of thing?

I'd be interested.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2007, 03:34:04 PM »
Quote
Seems to me (and the majority of Americans) that 'head-in-the-sand view of Iraq' better describes Bush and his supporters.

Why do you think I said it?  To tweak your small-minded little view of things.  Thanks for obliging me. 

Quote
There were no WMD's,
  When did the administration say that there were no WMDs?  I recall Bush stating that none had been found.  When did he say there had never been any?

Quote
Iraq was not involved in 9/11,
  Using this remark to argue against the Iraq War is the surest sign of a refusal to think about it.  And when did the administration say they were involved? 

Quote
there (was) no Al-queda in Iraq
  Who said this, and when? 

Quote
nor was Iraq any security threat to the U.S.
  The administration agreed they were not a threat?  Don't kid yourself.  That one I really would like to see. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2007, 04:09:16 PM »
I'm voting for him.........but then he is my Congressman so I'll probably be voting for him one way or another. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2007, 07:12:02 PM »
Dasmi, glad to see you're on my side.  The links you present are useful ammunition against Riley's point of view about the Iraqi connection to 11 Sept., or lack thereof.  Here is what Riley said:
Quote
There were no WMD's, Iraq was not involved in 9/11, there (was) no Al-queda in Iraq nor was Iraq any security threat to the U.S.  In spite of all these facts with which the administration agrees, we continue to squander our resources, our young men and women and our money, in that rathole.
 
Did the administration claim, suggest, or imply that Iraq was involved in 9/11?  Your links don't support the idea that they made such a claim, suggestion, or implication. 

Does the administration still agree that Iraq was not involved in 9/11?  Apparently so.  So far as I know, they always have.  Riley is half-right there, but he doesn't understand what this means.  Are we only allowed to make war on nations that have already harmed us?  This would reduce our foreign policy to some playground code of honor.  Billy punches Timmy.  Timmy punches back.  In the real world, pre-emptive warfare is reasonable self-defense.  By the same principle, CCW holders are not required to be physically hurt before firing. 

Your first two links claim that Bush said a great many things, but don't supply the relevant quotations, so they are irrelevant. 

The third is a speech given by the President, last month.  Here is how he describes the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda.  Note that he does not ascribe any role to Iraq in the attacks of Sept. 11, or claim that they had any prior knowledge of them.
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They complain when I say that the al Qaeda terrorists we face in Iraq are part of the same enemy that attacked us on September the 11th, 2001.
Quote
Al Qaeda in Iraq was founded by a Jordanian terrorist, not an Iraqi. His name was Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Before 9/11, he ran a terrorist camp in Afghanistan. He was not yet a member of al Qaida, but our intelligence community reports that he had longstanding relations with senior al Qaida leaders, that he had met with Osama bin Laden and his chief deputy, Zawahiri.

In 2001, coalition forces destroyed Zarqawi's Afghan training camp, and he fled the country and he went to Iraq, where he set up operations with terrorist associates long before the arrival of coalition forces. In the violence and instability following Saddam's fall, Zarqawi was able to expand dramatically the size, scope, and lethality of his operation. In 2004, Zarqawi and his terrorist group formally joined al Qaida, pledged allegiance to Osama bin Laden, and he promised to "follow his orders in jihad."


The fourth link is an anti-war website that apparently distills the wisdom of a Congressional report into small paragraphs.  These paragraphs are then used to rebut quotations from various administration officials.  While it gives interesting opinions, and links to the report, it doesn't prove much by itself.  I didn't have time to scan the quotations from every cabinet member, I did read all of the Bush quotations.  In none of them did Bush portray Iraq as a major player in the 9/11 attacks, though they seem to think he tried.  Eg:
Quote
"The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 -- and still goes on. That terrible morning, 19 evil men -- the shock troops of a hateful ideology -- gave America and the civilized world a glimpse of their ambitions. They imagined, in the words of one terrorist, that September the 11th would be the 'beginning of the end of America.' By seeking to turn our cities into killing fields, terrorists and their allies believed that they could destroy this nation's resolve, and force our retreat from the world. They have failed."
Source: President Bush Announces Major Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended, White House (5/1/2003).

Their response:
Quote
This statement was misleading because by referencing the September 11 attacks in conjunction with discussion of the war on terror in Iraq, it left the impression that Iraq was connected to September 11. In fact, President Bush himself in September 2003 acknowledged that "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September the 11th."
This is an oft-heard complaint that has never held water.  The President is not allowed to juxtapose the Iraq war with the 11 Sept. attacks, because you Americans are so stupid, you will think that Saddam was flying the planes.  It is in fact the above quotation that is misleading, because its logic, well, isn't.  And as icing on the cake, we have Bush clearly stating that he doesn't believe Saddam was involved with 9-11. 

And finally, here is something from Bush's speech that supports one of Riley's points.  Note that I did not disagree with this point.  I merely asked for some confirmation. 
Quote
Some note that al Qaida in Iraq did not exist until the U.S. invasion -- and argue that it is a problem of our own making. The argument follows the flawed logic that terrorism is caused by American actions.
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Matt King

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2007, 05:56:50 AM »
I agree with Dr, Paul on almost everything except Iraq. I wish he would support some kind of partition. Kurds in the north, Shiites in the south, and the Sunnis in the center. Just leaving, is IMHO reckless. Regardless, Ron Paul will be getting my vote.

Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2007, 06:00:11 AM »
I agree with Dr, Paul on almost everything except Iraq. I wish he would support some kind of partition. Kurds in the north, Shiites in the south, and the Sunnis in the center.
How did it get to be our job to run the lives of the Iraqis? Would we like it if the Arab world (which outnumbers us about 3 to 1) united against us, invaded, and partitioned us--red-staters on the coastlines, and blue-staters in the middle?

--Len.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2007, 06:02:26 AM »
Actually, if all the red staters moved here to California, it'd be a great place and I wouldn't  want to leave so bad Smiley

Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2007, 06:06:06 AM »
Actually, if all the red staters moved here to California, it'd be a great place and I wouldn't  want to leave so bad Smiley
Whoops, I got it backwards.  shocked

I'm biased in favor of conservatives and against liberals, because of my conservative background. But since I've decided that we shouldn't be robbing our neighbors at home or slaughtering strangers far away, I'm a lot less welcome in the red or the blue states.

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Matt King

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2007, 06:06:14 AM »
Quote
How did it get to be our job to run the lives of the Iraqis? Would we like it if the Arab world (which outnumbers us about 3 to 1) united against us, invaded, and partitioned us--red-staters on the coastlines, and blue-staters in the middle?

--Len.

Hey Len, nice to see you here.

We got that job when we invaded their country. The problem with you second argument is; red stater's and blue stater's aren't fighting a civil war. What solution do you have to stabilize Iraq? Partition seems the best idea to me.   


Paddy

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2007, 06:20:58 AM »
fistful, you're continuing to use the same circular 'logic' this administration has been trying to sell (unsuccessfully) since the beginning of this war.  It goes something like 'since we're there, we must have a good reason because we're the good guys and they're the evildoers.  We must 'stay the course' (whatever the hell that means) until the job (what 'job'?  that's never been explained either.  First it was WMD's, when wmd's were no longer an issue, it became 'regime change'.  Now that 'regime change' has happened, it's 'democratization'.  What next?) is done, or else the 'terrorists' have won.   'Won' what?  Explain, please, how our continuing military involvement in Iraq (with its huge expenditures) is justified by some measure of our national security.  Use your own words to express your own ideas.  Don't parrot GWB or Sean (phony patriot) Hannity.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2007, 06:47:02 AM »
Actually, if all the red staters moved here to California, it'd be a great place and I wouldn't  want to leave so bad Smiley
Whoops, I got it backwards.  shocked

I'm biased in favor of conservatives and against liberals, because of my conservative background. But since I've decided that we shouldn't be robbing our neighbors at home or slaughtering strangers far away, I'm a lot less welcome in the red or the blue states.

--Len.

I agree completely, but if I had a choice, I'd rather live with red staters on the coast than the blue staters I currently reside with.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2007, 06:49:01 AM »
Quote
How did it get to be our job to run the lives of the Iraqis? Would we like it if the Arab world (which outnumbers us about 3 to 1) united against us, invaded, and partitioned us--red-staters on the coastlines, and blue-staters in the middle?

--Len.

Hey Len, nice to see you here.

We got that job when we invaded their country. The problem with you second argument is; red stater's and blue stater's aren't fighting a civil war. What solution do you have to stabilize Iraq? Partition seems the best idea to me.   


Yes, we did.  But we should never have invaded in the first place.  Civil wars around the globe are not our job to fix, unless of course we start them.  We've been meddling for 50+ years in the middle east.  I think it's time we just stop.  It's not what America should be, and it isn't what the Founders envisioned.