Author Topic: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment  (Read 5953 times)

Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2007, 06:53:31 AM »
Hey Len, nice to see you here.

Likewise!

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We got that job when we invaded their country. The problem with you second argument is; red stater's and blue stater's aren't fighting a civil war. What solution do you have to stabilize Iraq? Partition seems the best idea to me.   

Who says we can put Humpty Dumpty together again? I think it's become clear by now that it's impossible to turn Iraq into a stable, pro-western democracy--and we probably agree that this was foreseeable from the beginning, which is a damning indictment of the "cakewalk" administration. We've made Iraqis' lives worse rather than better; we've increased rather than decreasing support for terrorism; and so on.

But your question is what to do now, after we've knocked Humpty Dumpty off the wall. Your suggestion is much better than the one the allies scratched on a napkin after WWI; at least you are taking sectarian and ethnic lines into account. Until perhaps two years ago, I agreed with your suggestion and the sentiment that we need to "fix the mess we made." The problem is that any "solution" imposed by us is simply going to set the stage for further blowback and another generation of this vicious cycle.

For example, creating a separate Kurdish entity in the north will greatly antagonize Turkey, which is fairly brutal in repressing their own Kurdish minority in their southeast. A Kurdish state right along that border will motivate Turkish Kurds to renew their own insurgency, with a view to carving a greater Kurdistan out of portions of Iraq and Turkey. The Kurdish republic in northern Iraq will undoubtedly assist their brothers across the border, which will combine all the fun of insurgency within Turkey and war with her Kurdish neighbors. Turkey will blame us for this, and US-Turkish relations will become strained. The Kurds will also tend to blame us, both for setting the stage for the war, and for failing to support the Kurds in the ensuing conflict with Turkey.

On the other hand, the US government is aware of these issues on some level, and will never show the spine to create a Kurdish republic. But their refusal to do so will incite anger and blowback from the Kurds, and whatever they opt to do instead will involve the Kurds in continued conflict that will also fuel blowback.

Similarly, creating a *expletive deleted*it authority in the south will lead to a strong movement toward unification with Iran. If that succeeds, Iran is enlarged, and tensions with Iran are increased. If the US intervenes to prevent that, then we come into direct conflict with both Iran and *expletive deleted*it Iraq. Because the administration is dead against an enlarged *expletive deleted*it region, they will tend to resist partitioning Iraq, or will partition it so that the Sunni region is sandwiched between Iran and *expletive deleted*it Iraq, or perhaps will either garrison *expletive deleted*it Iraq or invade Iran. All of those options involve repercussions that will reverberate for another generation and set the stage for the next major war in the area.

The Sunnis will likewise gravitate toward Saudi Arabia. Since we're such good "friends" with Saudi, the US will probably oppose that less than the other two regions, but I'm sure there's another hornets' nest of future problems associated with that.

So I'm of the opinion that pulling out slowly versus quickly will not greatly affect the total carnage; the carnage was predetermined when we toppled their unpleasant-but-stable government. The death toll will be comparable whether it's a short, bloody civil war or a long, protected insurgency. The difference is that we can minimize our own entanglement in another generation of blowback and conflict by refraining from dictating "solutions." Let them work out their own "solutions," for good or ill. Meanwhile, defend our own borders. I'm not in the slightest afraid of an Iraqi invasion of the mainland United States.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2007, 12:54:58 PM »
Riley,

If you thought my recent posts were an explanation or justification of the Iraq war, then you are confused.  I made specific comments about specific things.  If you'd like to respond to what I actually said, please do.  And let me make very clear that I do not parrot Sean Hannity.  I consider him to be a severe idiot.  I do like Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham and Mark Levin.   smiley
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2007, 12:59:36 PM »
Mark Levin...I can't even get past the sound of his voice to hear what he's saying.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2007, 01:10:57 PM »
Oh, Mark is definitely an acquired taste.  My wife can't take it, either.  Then, you have to accept the fact that he doesn't debate "libs," he just insults them/screams at them, etc.  It's definitely not reasoned debate, I just listen because it's so funny.  If you're expecting the other side to get their say in, then Mark Levin is not for you.  Laura Ingraham is a little better about that, but she really doesn't debate fairly.  If she has a leftie on for a debate, I usually turn the dial.  Rush doesn't have guests much at all, but he does actually debate leftie callers, rather than just shouting them down. 

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2007, 01:39:05 PM »
fistful,
You know full well the Iraq war is the substance of the argument and you also know you're on the wrong side of it.  Of course you can't explain or justify it; neither can anyone else.  So, instead, you'd like to argue about who said what and when.  I can produce links supporting my assertions, and you will attempt to discredit the source or claim it doesn't say what it says.  Who knows what Bush said, or admitted, or did not admit?   Even he doesn't know.  You can parse words until the proverbial cows come home and you still won't be any closer to the truth.

In the meanwhile,  I'll just 'stay the course'.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2007, 01:53:32 PM »
Riley, I just asked you some questions about what you said earlier.  You were talking about who said what when, and I asked you to be more specific.  We were just getting into the substance of the argument.

Here's where I have a real problem.  You said I was following circular logic, that goes like this:
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since we're there, we must have a good reason because we're the good guys and they're the evildoers.  We must 'stay the course'
But where did my posts say any of that?  I only asked you to defend your post, and then responded to Dasmi's links.  But you don't want to answer my questions.   

Yes, sometimes it feels like I'm on the wrong side of the Iraq debate.  But that's just because it would be easier to go along with the crowd and expect a microwave solution.  Examining facts usually dispels that feeling.
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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2007, 01:30:46 PM »
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Yes, sometimes it feels like I'm on the wrong side of the Iraq debate.  But that's just because it would be easier to go along with the crowd and expect a microwave solution.  Examining facts usually dispels that feeling.
Exactly.  And the facts are that Iraq is not now and has never been a threat to the security of the U.S.  Everybody thought so before the invasion because everybody believed the same faulty intelligence.  In hindsight, the invasion turned out to be a mistake.  The Congress, as well as the President, are responsible for that mistake.  It is not all George Bush's 'fault'.

What is GWB's fault is continuing this conflict, year after year, with everchanging 'goals'.  It's dishonest.  It's disingenuous, and the American people aren't buying it.   To request either a resolution or a reason for continuing after 5 years and hundreds of billions $$ is not 'expecting a microwave solution'.   GWB has completely and utterly failed to articulate any substantial reason for continuing our military involvement in Iraq.  All he says is 'stay the course'  or 'the evildoers yakety yak'.  He goes from WMD's to 'regime change' to 'democratization'.  Democratization won't work in a tribal society.  Hell, it hasn't even worked yet in the former USSR after 20 years.

GWB will be out of office Jan 20, 2009, having accomplished nothing.  He leaves a big mess for the next President, and a huge debt for the rest of us.  He will go down as the worst President in U.S. history.

Having said that, I'm done with Republicans after voting for them since 1968.  And damn sure not gonna vote for any Dems.  I'm re registering Independent for whatever it's worth.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2007, 01:48:29 PM »
Sigh. 
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Paddy

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2007, 01:57:38 PM »
Go ahead, keep the faith.  In another 20 years you'll be disillusioned and pissed off,  too.  Ron Paul's probably got most of it right. As does Pat Buchanan and Newt Gingrich.  Any of them would probably make very good Presidents. Can they get elected?  Hell, no.  Because the American people are by and large stooges who allow MSM to dictate the minutia of their lives.
 [/rant off]  undecided

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2007, 02:57:36 PM »
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Because the American people are by and large stooges who allow MSM to dictate the minutia of their lives their views on the Iraq war.

That's better.  In twenty years, Iraq will be what it would have been anyway.  Another small war, another little dictator toppled.  Unless you win, Riley, and we leave, in which case it will be Blackhawk Down to the hundredth power, Vietnam Redux.  The moment when the Islamic world learned that America has no guts. 

Anyway, why don't you lecture me on Russian grammar?  You are probably better-informed on that subject. 
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Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2007, 03:30:39 PM »
That's better.  In twenty years, Iraq will be what it would have been anyway.  Another small war, another little dictator toppled.
Another couple trillion plunked in the jukebox. Yup.

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Unless you win, Riley, and we leave, in which case it will be Blackhawk Down to the hundredth power, Vietnam Redux.
That's true, but not in the way you think. When the US fails to set up a stable, secular, pro-western democracy--which is the only intelligent definition of "victory," and is unattainable--they will forever attribute it to the "knife in the back theory." We were winning right up until them dang liberals/libertarians/Ron Paul/whoever snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, yadda yadda.

If Bush wins, and protracts the war for the next several decades, we'll still lose, and folks will still claim that we were winning until the "panty-waist liberals" castrated the "manly man" neocons and stole their cakewalk. It's a no-brainer for the Bushistas: no matter what happens, they can shift the blame, using almost the identical argument. Just replace "made us pull out" with "didn't fund the war enough" or "didn't root loudly enough for the home team" or "by disagreeing with the Decidinator, gave the enemy the steely resolve they needed to win" or "didn't pray enough" or "called down God's wrath with their decadent lifestyles"... except for that little bit, the excuse is the same regardless.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2007, 03:34:49 PM »
That's better.  In twenty years, Iraq will be what it would have been anyway.  Another small war, another little dictator toppled.
Another couple trillion plunked in the jukebox. Yup.
That happens.  It's not my fault we waste the rest of our money on spam social spending.


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Unless you win, Riley, and we leave, in which case it will be Blackhawk Down to the hundredth power, Vietnam Redux.
That's true, but not in the way you think. When the US fails to set up a stable, secular, pro-western democracy--which is the only intelligent definition of "victory," and is unattainable--they will forever attribute it to the "knife in the back theory." We were winning right up until them dang liberals/libertarians/Ron Paul/whoever snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, yadda yadda.

If Bush wins, and protracts the war for the next several decades, we'll still lose, and folks will still claim that we were winning until the "panty-waist liberals" castrated the "manly man" neocons and stole their cakewalk. It's a no-brainer for the Bushistas: no matter what happens, they can shift the blame, using almost the identical argument. Just replace "made us pull out" with "didn't fund the war enough" or "didn't root loudly enough for the home team" or "by disagreeing with the Decidinator, gave the enemy the steely resolve they needed to win" or "didn't pray enough" or "called down God's wrath with their decadent lifestyles"... except for that little bit, the excuse is the same regardless.

--Len.

Pretty much.  That's why they're the bad guys and we're the good guys.  Deal.
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Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2007, 03:42:57 PM »
Pretty much.  That's why they're the bad guys and we're the good guys.  Deal.
Liberals are the bad guys--but conservatives aren't the good guys. The former oppress citizens, and the latter oppress non-citizens. Moderates, of course, are so called because they're willing to compromise and oppress both citizens and non-citizens.

The ones who want to oppress nobody are variously named "nut-ball whackos," or "crazed extremists," etc.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2007, 03:44:18 PM »
Riiiiight.
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Balog

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2007, 03:45:00 PM »
We could win in Iraq, if we were willing to look at history. NOTICE I am not saying this is moral, or proper, or should be done. Just saying it would work, as per history.NOTICE The Brits turned cockbiting f*expletive deleted*tards every bit as nasty as the hajjis into reasonably productive and civilized human beings. Took years, and they were willing to admit the basic truth that their society was, in fact, superior and to impose it on the natives. Works wonders until the folks back home get all indignant that the locals don't have the same degree of freedom etc etc. If we were willing to say "You're our colony, deal with it" and proceed from there it'd be over. Not soon, and not easily, but it'd happen.

But America at this stage in it's existence would never go for that, so that giant flushing sound you hear is money and lives going away for no purpose.
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Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2007, 03:49:32 PM »
We could win in Iraq, if we were willing to look at history...
I think you can boil it down pretty neatly: we can win in Iraq, and easily, if we kill every last freakin' one of 'em. If we do anything less, the ones left alive will be thoroughly ticked off and will make revenge on the US his religion. Some of them, or their children, will eventually lay their hands on a nuke, or a pulse cannon, or get behind the wheel of a battlestar some GI double-parked, and it's payback time.

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But America at this stage in it's existence would never go for that, so that giant flushing sound you hear is money and lives going away for no purpose.
Right. We're not actually ready to support full-on genocide. The president can get away with genocide only if he can fool the American people into thinking it's not happening, or that it's something other than genocide. Since that isn't bloody likely, they're going to fart around for a year, or ten, or a hundred, and finally give up. Meanwhile, of course, the surviving Iraqis are thoroughly ticked off and making revenge on the US into their religion...

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Balog

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2007, 03:52:28 PM »
I'm unaware of the Brits ever genociding anyone. Even in the Sepoy Mutiny in the mid 1850's, altho lots of innocent Indian blood was indeed shed. Maybe I'm missing it; care to post an example? Or are you saying the British Empire was unsuccessful?
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Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2007, 03:58:58 PM »
I'm unaware of the Brits ever genociding anyone. Even in the Sepoy Mutiny in the mid 1850's, altho lots of innocent Indian blood was indeed shed. Maybe I'm missing it; care to post an example? Or are you saying the British Empire was unsuccessful?
How are things in the British colony of India these days? Their brutality contributed directly to their expulsion from India. When you take blowback into account, "victory" takes more than a triumphant photo-op on an aircraft carrier.

9/11 was blowback, primarily from the US operation of bases in Saudi Arabia, yet it occurred ten years after the first gulf war was "won." But it'll be a long time before historians correctly include 9/11 in their accounts of Gulf War I; since history is, for now, more or less dictated by the American government, 9/11 will instead be treated as an unprovoked attack from a crazy camel-jockey whose only motivation was that he heard voices in his head.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2007, 04:45:06 PM »
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history is, for now, more or less dictated by the American government


All other issues, aside, are you saying what I think you're saying?  You think the U.S. govt. is dictating history to the populace?


Balog,

On the internets, genocide means "killing a bunch of people in a really mean way."  Please do not expect words to have their actual meanings.
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Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2007, 04:51:43 PM »
All other issues, aside, are you saying what I think you're saying?  You think the U.S. govt. is dictating history to the populace?

Not directly, no. Writers of recent history are informed primarily by the press, which are sometimes witting and sometimes unwitting organs of government propaganda. The writers themselves, being way too close to the events they document, are usually motivated by the agenda of either the left or the right, and write accordingly. The vast majority of all works on recent history are, as a result, little more than the distilled propaganda of the ruling parties.

There will of course be two main versions of GWII, just as there are two main versions of Vietnam--but neither version will do much justice to the truth.

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On the internets, genocide means "killing a bunch of people in a really mean way."  Please do not expect words to have their actual meanings.

I explained pretty clearly why leaving survivors is always a mistake. The Brits are out of India. The US experienced 9/11. If you record the full effects of a policy, and not only a cherry-picked subset, the picture changes considerably. We have already created future terrorist attacks which most Americans will regard as completely unprovoked, since their knowledge of history starts last Tuesday and their knowledge of the world stops just past the nearest mall. And politicians will exploit the resulting paranoia to advance their statist agenda, as usual.

I'm personally hoping that lots of Iraqi refugees move to Canada. It'll be a hoot to see politicians spinning our "dangerous neighbor to the north" and launching invasions of Ontario. Instead of "Johnny Jihad" it'll be "Nuke Nanook!"

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2007, 04:56:36 PM »
"I'm unaware of the Brits ever genociding anyone."

The British invented the concept of the concentration camp, in South Africa, against the Boers.

And many of the horrors that go along with those camps.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2007, 07:25:20 PM »
Yes, yes, the newspapers always say what the Republicans or the Democrats want them to say.  At least we can agree on that one.   rolleyes

Let's see what we have here, Len.

Anything I say is just propaganda from the right.  Anything you say is clear wisdom unsullied by partisan straitjacket.  Riiight. 

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The writers themselves, being way too close to the events they document, are usually motivated by the agenda of either the left or the right, and write accordingly. The vast majority of all works on recent history are, as a result, little more than the distilled propaganda of the ruling parties.

Ah, yes.  Everyone else is blinded.  You are above the fray.  Just like everybody else claims to be.  Yawn.  In reality, the historians of 2157 will appraise events differently, with the advantage of being far removed from the events themselves.  And they will appraise events differently, with the disadvantage of being far removed from the events themselves.  It works both ways. 
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Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2007, 09:10:53 PM »
Anything I say is just propaganda from the right.  Anything you say is clear wisdom unsullied by partisan straitjacket.  Riiight. 
Straw man. I never said any such thing.

I did indicate that the "knife in the back theory" is a standard excuse for government failure. Conservatives in the sorta-free world use it to explain failed wars; leftists use it to explain the failure of their social programs. The USSR always used it to explain all their failures, and whenever a shortage or a surplus was created in their command economy, someone was sure to "confess" to deviating from the plan, and be duly executed for his "sabotage." This observation is light-years away from suggesting that you are wrong on every issue, or that everything you say is propaganda.

Indeed, I said the opposite: I said that "liberals" are actually right when they decide that slaughtering a bunch of turbaned folks who never belonged to a terrorist organization in the first place is immoral. They're right when they say it's immoral to suspend habeas corpus and the protections ofr the fourth and fifth amendments in the name of "security." And on the other hand, conservatives are right when they say it's immoral to steal, even if you're "stealing from the rich to give to the poor." It's immoral to intrude into and seize control of people's lives in the name of "helping" them. And so on.

It would be much more accurate to say that I've called both sides "half right." The left is usually wrong on welfare, and the right is usually wrong on warfare.

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The writers themselves, being way too close to the events they document, are usually motivated by the agenda of either the left or the right, and write accordingly. The vast majority of all works on recent history are, as a result, little more than the distilled propaganda of the ruling parties.

Ah, yes.  Everyone else is blinded.  You are above the fray.
More straw men. Yawn.

Everyone is selling something. Call it advertising, propaganda, or whatever you will, but a balanced report of the objective facts is a rare animal. You know it too, though you probably call it things like "liberal media bias." The media IS biased leftward--but the administration, which knows that, does a good job of controlling what they find out about things like wars. Advertisers and other special interests are also in the fray, just to keep the fog nice and thick.

The facts are out there, and plenty of people--but far too few--are able to consider them slightly objectively.

A good example is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Most Americans, including myself until recently, swallow without question the comforting myth that nuking Japan was an act of God-like mercy by Truman: those stupid yellow devils were going to resist until the last man fell with his sword in his hand; and then the women and children would keep resisting. We "saved a million lives" by nuking them so they'd get it through their primitive minds that their cause was completely hopeless. Yay us!

Some believe that they were nuked because racist Americans didn't value the lives of little yellow devils--and that's why we nuked Japan and didn't nuke Germany. Germans were white like us. Considering the flap at the Smithsonian Institution over the Enola Gay exhibit, I'd speculate that this is the largest minority viewpoint in the US. It's even more stupid than the generally-accepted truth above.

Plenty of people are aware of the real facts: Japan was desperate to surrender, and had made overtures to the US. Their only concern was that they didn't want Hirohito deposed or harmed, since they revered him as a deity. Truman's policy of "unconditional surrender" made them hesitate, even though in the end Hirohito wasn't deposed. When the enemy is begging for a chance to surrender, with such minimal terms, it's clearly nonsense that they're planning to resist until the last toddler is slaughtered. Truman's generals were more or less unanimous that it was wrong and immoral to nuke Japan, and the "saved a  million lives" rationale didn't come on the scene until later. Most people speculate, and it's probably the correct explanation, that the bombings were intended to be a warning to Stalin that the US was not to be trifled with. Other factors, such as the desire to try out his new toy, or to play God, may or may not have been present--it's tough to psychoanalyze a man after he's dead.

So I make no special claim of enlightenment, and certainly no blanket claim. I merely point out that "history is written by the winners," that governments are heavily into the propaganda business, and that other powerful interests with agendas are involved as well. The facts are usually there under all the muck, somewhere, and plenty of folks eventually become aware of them, but it takes a while. Popular myths can overwhelm the truth for years or even centuries.

You are correct that once history becomes remote enough, it too becomes mythologized. King Arthur was probably a historical figure, as was probably Robin Hood, but the true facts concerning either are buried under a mountain of legend. Ancient history is an extremely dicey business, and a fair bit of what we "know" about it is probably wrong. Huge swaths of history fall into doubt if Herodotus happened to be an embellisher, for example.

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Balog

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2007, 09:32:09 PM »
"I'm unaware of the Brits ever genociding anyone."

The British invented the concept of the concentration camp, in South Africa, against the Boers.

And many of the horrors that go along with those camps.

You know, it's odd but that was actually what I was thinking of when I wrote my post. Even there, tho, it wasn't properly genocide. It was more of a "we'll kill your families until you surrender" tactic than a "we'll kill all of you" tactic. I'd say the American treatment of certain Indian tribes was closer to true genocide than anything the Brits ever did.

Len: Many of the most free and successful countries that aren't America or European started off as Brit colonies. The goal isn't to be there forever; just until you've bred the stupid out of 'em.
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Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on the 2nd Amendment
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2007, 09:33:29 PM »
Len: Many of the most free and successful countries that aren't America or European started off as Brit colonies. The goal isn't to be there forever; just until you've bred the stupid out of 'em.

Where's the giant bug-eyed emoticon when you need it? I thought the "white man's burden" was so last century.

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