Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on February 17, 2011, 03:15:07 PM
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I'm lovin' it. =D
Anything that sticks it to the NEA, SEIU, AFL-CIO and other giant bloated unions is A-OK in my book.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116381289.html
WI has a watershed Tea Party election this fall. They vote to ACTUALLY CUT SPENDING on schools and such. To ACTUALLY CUT WAGES to teachers by a reasonable amount, just like a business might do to avoid going under.
As such, the teachers abandon their duty to teach, call in "sick" and several thousand of them (and their brainwashed captive audiences) come to the Capitol to protest the Republican vote.
Then, the Dem senators abscond from the premises. The po-po are looking for them right now and will drag them back to the Capitol to compel them to represent the People for a vote. It's rumored that enough to block a quorum have fled the State, out of the state police jurisdiction.
I'm lovin' it.
If they stall this up some more, for another election cycle, I'm gonna love the next tally of Tea Party / non-Tea Party representation even more.
WI is evidence we're taking this country back. We'll balance the several States independently, first, then we'll balance the FedGov. It's just a matter of if we have enough credit to buy us the time. Which I worry about. :'(
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They actually fled the state. It would be difficult for the WI State Patrol to go arrest them.
If they refused to leave IL or MN (money's on IL in the Chicago area...) and come back, they may actually have to have some kind of Extradition hearing in the other state. :P
I know they pulled this stunt in Texas a few times, I don't know how it was resolved, just that it eventually was. It won't be for running out of money to stay on the lam though, I'm sure all sorts of labor/liberal groups would be happy to front them money for hotels and meals as long as they needed.
Although only ONE Democrat needs to have his arse hauled back into the Capitol to force a quorum. So maybe one or more of them is still hiding out in WI and gets fingered by a friend/family/acquaintance who does not agree with them politically.
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The story says that Scott Fitzgerald remembers 1995 as the last time this happened. I remember an incident in the last decade where legislators (Dem's, IIRC) fled the state.
Thousands of state employees taking off work or simply playing hooky because the governor wants to "cut" some benefits. He wants them to pay 12% of their health care. Wow! The humanity!
I know countless people who've lost their jobs in the last few years, and many who've been unable to find new jobs. I now make what I was making in 1987, and make half of what I made in 1997. That's the way things go.
Walker has told the unions that there will have to be cuts in benefits, or there will be jobs cut. He did that as Milwaukee County executive, too. He offered the unions a furlough plan, where workers would take an unpaid day off each week. The alternative was to lay off workers. The union chose to have workers laid off (the ones with the least seniority, of course).
So much for brotherhood.
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Obama called the Governor's actions an assault on unions. Must have gotten the word from SEIU and his old "community organizer" handlers.
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Obama called the Governor's actions an assault on unions. Must have gotten the word from SEIU and his old "community organizer" handlers.
Assault the unions? Yep.
Pretty much why I voted for him. =)
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The Governor. =)
Obama gave GM to the UAW. =|
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Yep, they are hiding in Illinois.....
Hehehehhehe
Chickenshit bastages.
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Drudge is reporting that the lost lawmakers are at a resort in Illinois. Most likely at the expense of the taxpayers. Wonder if the bus that took them was paid by Unions or the taxpayer.
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The democrats fled Texas several years ago to New Mexico. The Republicans were doing redistricting after the census and the Democrats didn't like losing some of their power. The Gov kept calling special sessions until they showed up.
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And it worked too. Another reason I like Gov Perry. Add to that he has a CHL and carries.
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The democrats fled Texas several years ago to New Mexico. The Republicans were doing redistricting after the census and the Democrats didn't like losing some of their power. The Gov kept calling special sessions until they showed up.
That's what I was remembering. It wasn't WI, but Texas.
I wonder if there's a way to prevent the Democrats from ever returning to WI?
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Wasn't it Regan who fired all the aircraft controllers?
I'm thinking thats what needs to happen to teachers that continue to skip work, causing schools to shut down. Imagine all the qualified unemployed people in other states who might be happy to move to WI and teach.
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LOL-worthy.
Dick, can you identify either of them? I'm comparing them to the WI legislature site...
http://biggovernment.com/publius/2011/02/17/video-tea-party-activist-confronts-wisconsin-democrats-as-they-flee-illinois-resort/
I think it's Jim Hoplerin and Dave Hansen or Robert Jauch... :laugh:
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So schools are closed so that the teachers can whine. Who is doing the educating? Fire them all, hire new ones, not like we're short on liberal arts degrees.
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It should get interesting here in Ohio. We have a similar bill that has been introduced and as expected the unions are on in force against the bill. [popcorn]
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The second guy in the video looks like Bob Jauch. He's sure gained a lot of weight since 2002, when he told CCW supporters in the gallery to grow up after Chvala's tricks.
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Good, for a minute there, I was terrified Ted Kennedy had come back as a Zombie and was advising the WI Democratic Caucus... [tinfoil]
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The po-po are looking for them right now and will drag them back to the Capitol to compel them to represent the People
Is there a law that requires the State Reps to be present at all sessions?
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Is there a law that requires the State Reps to be present at all sessions?
Rules of the senate and the power vested in the Master At Arms. They don't enforce specific attendance, but can force a quorum.
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I saw on TV that the unions in Wisconsin are revolting - I've known that for a long time. ;)
Once they're back in session, they ought to pass a law that says absence of a legislator from a session for anything other than illness, emergency, or military service constitutes resignation from office, with the vacancy to be filled by gubernatorial appointment.
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I saw on TV that the unions in Wisconsin are revolting - I've known that for a long time. ;)
Once they're back in session, they ought to pass a law that says absence of a legislator from a session for anything other than illness, emergency, or military service constitutes resignation from office, with the vacancy to be filled by gubernatorial appointment.
What they need to pass are laws that prevent public employees from participating in unions.
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After the revolution starts, can someone come and spread it to Illinois?
Please......
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What they need to pass are laws that prevent public employees from participating in unions.
Bingo!
http://althouse.blogspot.com/
Here is a protesting teacher & her sign
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5258%2F5454480842_9eca56e98a_b.jpg&hash=39924542de2ccf2fb5617ac3a8c1a44b25728839)
The fine example these teachers demonstrate for our children:
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2011/02/how-much-respect-did-demonstrators-show.html
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5298%2F5453174563_61647775b4_b.jpg&hash=724ec9f71d31ff68a97506d452b93be7caaa3ad4)
Mash the link to see more of hte examples Wisconsin teachers demonstrate for Wisconsin gov't school children.
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Wisconsin teachers have their own health insurance company that's run by the union. They pay almost nothing into it, but are insured for life. They're paid $50K+ for 9 months work. They can retire after 30 years (my neighbor retired at 55).
More than half of the increases in appropriations for the Milwaukee school district goes to teacher benefits.
As for public employees being underpaid, well, that depends upon how the employee plays his cards. There's plenty of public employees who've done well for themselves. A couple of years ago the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel did a story on public employees making six figures. A registred nurse at a county correctional facility was making over $200,000 with overtime. There's plenty of Milwaukee police officers making over $100k.
Milwaukee cops (firefighters, too, I think) get 95% of their last five years pay as pension after 25 years, 100% after 30 years, and 105% after 35 years. So, a cop could easily retire at 55 and make more than he made on the job.
I'm sure everyone here has heard my story about a friend who was a Milwaukee building inspector, got himself on disability in 1985 (how he's disabled, I don't know; he can do anything), and recently switched from disability to his pension. He hasn't worked in 25 years and he's getting a pension.
But ask these folks to pay 12.5% of their health insurance or half of their pension costs and it's the end of the world.
I wish Walker had the power to fire all of the teachers, as Reagan did with the air traffic controllers.
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I know of guy who did 20 or 25 years a firefighter, retired. Got a job in another town as a fire marshal, and retired again 10 or 15 years later.
Over $200,000 in pension each year.
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Someone needs to have the courage to tell public employees that they are no different than the rest of us. Millions of private sector folks have lost jobs, lost benefits, had pay cuts, have to pay more into benefit plans etc. What makes them immune?
If we had a president who was not a sniveling cowardly socialist, he'd use his bully pulpit to explain what shared sacrifice during tough times is all about.
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Someone needs to have the courage to tell public employees that they are no different than the rest of us.
NJ Governor Christie and teachers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkuTm-ON904
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y59zZTzRE3w&feature=related
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Yeah, I've watched several of his speeches. I guess what I meant is that too bad we don't have more leaders like him. We need a few hundred more just like him in state houses and Washington.
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From another forum:
I just got off a conference call with other tea party leaders from around the state, and we are moving forward with this. Please forward to this to anyone who you think might be willing to attend.
A permit has been pulled and there will be a tea party rally entitled “I Support Scott Walker” on the steps of the Wisconsin capital at 12PM on Sat. morning. Because of the short notice, we need this to go viral very quickly. Those of you in the tea party movement in the state of WI should contact your area leaders to coordinate transit as soon as possible. We also need tea party members from other states to show up and support our effort. Please PM me with any questions, but confirming information on this including a formal press release should be hitting the net in various locations as you read this.
ETA: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116446159.html (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116446159.html)
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From another forum:
Those without gov't jobs have to do their protesting on the weekends.
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As for public employees being underpaid...
According to this (http://epi.3cdn.net/9e237c56096a8e4904_rkm6b9hn1.pdf) they are underpaid. I'm not familiar with epi and they clearly have a bias, but assuming they're not straight out lying about those numbers they seem to have a case. This (http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/116271554.html) article mentions a cato institute study (this (http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-59.pdf)?) that says otherwise but that appears to be nationwide, not specific to Wisconsin and doesn't appear to have controlled for education level at all. Anyone have some other numbers to share on this tangent?
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I've never heard of the Economic Policy Institute, so I took a look at their report. They use a lot of words answering a relatively simple question.
I noted that their address is in DC, which would lead me to believe that they may also be engaged in lobbying.
I then just did a Google search, and the latest news story about them was from yesterday, in which it was said that the Recovery Act (Obama's stimulus) cleantech investments "...have created or saved nearly 1 million green jobs, according to a report released today by the Economic Policy Institute..." This report was a joint effort by the Economic Policy Institute and the BlueGreen Alliance.
I don't think I need to take many more steps to find out where the bulls**t lies.
Having lived in WI since 1958, I can tell you that teachers, cops, and other public workers have a very sweet deal going.
The teacher's union controls Madison. Their lifetime health insurance isn't a Cadillac plan, it's a Rolls Royce plan, and the teachers pay very few dollars a month for it. I doubt that anyone on this forum could afford to buy such insurance.
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(No numbers)
Yeah, I read the anecdotes you posted earlier and I said up front that the epi is probably going to be biased but at least they have sources to back up those numbers, that's more of what I'm looking for. The cato one clearly has an agenda too, but again, it's more to go on than some story about someone's neighbor having a "sweet deal." I'm kind of looking for a larger sample size than a half dozen, not that your stories don't make for interesting reading. =)
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Fine. Here's some comparisons of Wisconsin to neighboring states:
Financial Data for Wisconsin
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $3,571,389,694
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $1,719,827,769
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $196,466,650
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $6,730
Total current expenditures per student: $11,418
Financial Data for Michigan
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $6,022,723,390
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $2,765,379,038
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $289,372,186
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $5,523
Total current expenditures per student: $9,533
Financial Data for Minnesota
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $3,766,312,685
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $1,159,938,299
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $184,515,602
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $6,124
Total current expenditures per student: $10,826
Financial Data for Iowa
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $1,952,930,339
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $592,046,164
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $95,949,632
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $5,742
Total current expenditures per student: $9,741
Financial Data for Illinois
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $8,780,141,260
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $2,799,518,548
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $469,018,815
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $5,490
Total current expenditures per student: $9,762
Financial Data for Indiana
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $3,681,735,767
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $998,932,254
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $97,488,650
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $5,171
Total current expenditures per student: $9,342
Average Salary Percent Change
Rank 2009 Rank 2008 Rank 2007 2008 to 2009 2007 to 2008 2007 to 2009
Wisconsin 24 $48,743.33 24 $47,365.00 18 $47,070.00 2.91% 0.63% 3.55%
Average Salary Percent Change
Rank 2009 Rank 2008 Rank 2007 2008 to 2009 2007 to 2008 2007 to 2009
Michigan 17 $52,300.00 12 $53,410.00 8 $54,683.33 -2.08% -2.33% -4.36%
Average Salary Percent Change
Rank 2009 Rank 2008 Rank 2007 2008 to 2009 2007 to 2008 2007 to 2009
Minnesota 21 $50,360.00 19 $49,725.00 17 $48,263.33 1.28% 3.03% 4.34%
Average Salary Percent Change
Rank 2009 Rank 2008 Rank 2007 2008 to 2009 2007 to 2008 2007 to 2009
Iowa 45 $41,970.00 49 $39,035.00 48 $37,763.33 7.52% 3.37% 11.14%
Average Salary Percent Change
Rank 2009 Rank 2008 Rank 2007 2008 to 2009 2007 to 2008 2007 to 2009
Illinois 9 $57,283.33 9 $56,505.00 11 $53,463.33 1.38% 5.69% 7.15%
Average Salary Percent Change
Rank 2009 Rank 2008 Rank 2007 2008 to 2009 2007 to 2008 2007 to 2009
Indiana 30 $46,640.00 25 $47,245.00 23 $46,600.00 -1.28% 1.38% 0.09%
Now let's take a look at what those of us who pay (or, in my case, paid) in taxes for all this are/were concerned about, starting with the benefits:
Teacher's benefits as a percentage of total teacher expenditures:
WI: 48%
MI: 46%
MN: 31%
IA: 30%
IL: 32%
IN: 27%
Remember the Rolls Royce benefit package I was talking about? There you go.
Now, let's look at how the money is spent:
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum):
WI: $6,730
MI: $5,523
MN: $6,124
IA: $5,742
IL: $5,490
IN: $5,171
Total current expenditures per student:
WI: $11,418
MN: $9,533
IA: $9,741
IL: $9,762
IN: $9,342
This is all from a website that appears to be for teachers. If you want more detailed information, you'll have to pay me a generous salary and set me up with a DC office. ;)
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great stats thanks what site was that? i posted that elsewhere and as soon as the libs get outa bed they will be screamin so i need the source by about 10 10:30 am
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http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com
Oh, and by the way, months ago I compared the cost per student of education in Milwaukee to that of education here in Bubbaville (Decatur) AL. The cost per pupil here is much lower, the dropout rate is much lower, and academic scores are higher. All that the big money in WI is buying is benie's for the teachers.
The teacher's union has been the #1 most powerful lobby in WI for decades. No legislator has dared to cross them. Now you're seeing why. They'll drag kids out of school to use as props. They don't care about the kids, they care about the union.
WEAC, the Wisconsin teacher's union, has the system gamed. A person can't become a teacher in WI without getting a teaching certificate, and without being a union member. Bill Gates couldn't teach computer science in WI unless he got a teaching certificate and joined the union.
That's the way it is.
Or am I being too "anecdotal"?
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my favorite question to ask teachers is name 3 teachers who have been fired other than for screwing a student. most can't name one
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my favorite question to ask teachers is name 3 teachers who have been fired other than for screwing a student. most can't name one
You want to take THAT benefit away too? Pretty soon no-one will want to be a teacher. Sheesh! :lol:
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Only fix I see is a lot of angry parents standing up and screaming in the local school board and town council meetings demanding that the teachers show up to work and educate their child. Push for resignations, elections and keep throwing out leaders until they get some that lead.
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You want to take THAT benefit away too? Pretty soon no-one will want to be a teacher. Sheesh! :lol:
i know i'm a mean spirited lil sob. i love asking how is it that alone amongst professions teaching has no incompetent workers no one ever gets the boot because they just can't cut it
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Can someone sum up whats going on? It seems like any time I see the news it is all they are talking about and they always show a bunch of people protesting but I have no idea what is going on, couldn't actually hear it. Also, was there nothing else they could think of cutting than going after teachers, who aren't usually payed a whole lot although from some of the posts here it seems like WI teachers get payed a lot more than most.
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Freakazoid, Wisconsin has a $3.6 billion budget deficit. The state has had a budget deficit for several years. In 2002, incoming Democrat Governor Doyle inherited a $1.2 billion deficit. He and the Democrat legislature increased that deficit to over $6 billion. Doyle took $2 billion in TARP money two years ago to temporarily plug the hole, but the deficit is still there.
One of the major sources of deficit spending is government employees, in particular their benefits programs. WI state employees have defined benefit pension plans (IIRC), and don't pay anything out of pocket toward their pensions. Employees, particularly teachers, have excellent health care benefits and pay little or nothing toward them.
Municipal employees in Wisconsin, through their unions, can engage in collective bargaining with the local, county and state governments. In most states this isn't possible, because it leaves the governments open to strikes by those employees. Wisconsin was the first state to allow collective bargaining, which was something that even FDR thought was a horrible idea.
Governor Walker is trying to eliminate collective bargaining for public employees because, as it stands now, many of the unions negotiate at the local level. Trying to solve the problem using the current system would result in some locals getting raises, some not, some getting benefits, and some not. It would be a patchwork, and wouldn't address the deficit. Since the municipalities receive state money for education and other services, the state has a role in this.
Walker is proposing that public employees pay half of their pension contributions each year instead of zero, as they do now. He's proposing that they pay 12% of their health care premiums. Neither of those requests is out of line and, in fact, would still be attractive percentages to many private sector employees.
If you have about nine minutes, watch this video of Governor Walker here (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/greghengler/2011/02/18/wi_gov_to_teacher$_union_were_making_the_tough_decisions_now!) .
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Walker is proposing that public employees pay half of their pension contributions each year instead of zero, as they do now. He's proposing that they pay 12% of their health care premiums. Neither of those requests is out of line and, in fact, would still be attractive percentages to many private sector employees.
Even if they're already making less than comparable private sector employees? People seem obsessed with how great their benefits are but seem to ignore total compensation. The statistic you pointed to as evidence of a Rolls Royce benefit package doesn't mean much - except that they consider benefits more important than take home pay. If benefits as a percentage of total teacher expenditures was doubled that would have no effect on how much they cost the state .
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Even if they're already making less than comparable private sector employees? People seem obsessed with how great their benefits are but seem to ignore total compensation. The statistic you pointed to as evidence of a Rolls Royce benefit package doesn't mean much - except that they consider benefits more important than take home pay. If benefits as a percentage of total teacher expenditures was doubled that would have no effect on how much they cost the state .
If you want an apples to apples comparison to what public school teachers make vs private sector counterparts- take a look at private school teacher compensation. Private school teachers make about 80% of the salary of their public school counterparts AND have to pay for at least part of their health benefits AND they have to contribute to their own retirement plans (401Ks, etc).
Public school teachers are making much MORE in salary and benefits than their private sector counterparts. If they have a bitch about their compensation, they are always free to join the real world- noone is foprcing them to be a teacher.
Yes I realize that there are private sector jobs that pay more than public teacher jobs, but most of those are business owners, executives, bankers, etc. Its absurd for a group of people to think they would be entitled to more pay benefits in the private sector if they don't possess the special skills, knowledge and more importantly drive to go and take it for themselves.
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If you want an apples to apples comparison to what public school teachers make vs private sector counterparts- take a look at private school teacher compensation. Private school teachers make about 80% of the salary of their public school counterparts AND have to pay for at least part of their health benefits AND they have to contribute to their own retirement plans (401Ks, etc).
These are the kind of numbers I'm looking for! Do you have a source for this? I know it's not a perfect comparison since private schools can be highly selective in student population and at the same time utilize public school resources when they need it, but it's still one of the better comparisons we have. The study I linked earlier has the stats for public employee compensation vs private sector employee compensation controlling for education level - but it wasn't specific to teachers. Do you know if there's any difference between education level (and therefore expected compensation) between public & private school teachers?
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The statistic you pointed to as evidence of a Rolls Royce benefit package doesn't mean much
It means a lot in terms of the cost to taxpayers. It must also mean a lot to the public employees, or they wouldn't be rioting (excuse me, "protesting") in such great numbers.
The teacher's union health insurance plan would cost over $1100 a month in Wisconsin for a couple (don't know what it would be for a family of four). I know this because their health insurance plan is better than what the plumber's union has, and the plumber's costs $1100 per month for a married couple. I've also had to pay for an individual policy for myself, and the coverage that the teacher's insurance provides would be in excess of $1500 a month.
They get that coverage for life, and for next to nothing. That's worth a lot.
They're being asked to pay just 12.5% of the cost of that insurance. How many in the private sector pay just 12.5% for health insurance?
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It means a lot in terms of the cost to taxpayers.
Total compensation is what makes a difference to tax payers. Whether 50% of that compensation goes towards benefits or if 50% of it goes towards fruit snacks, the cost to the taxpayer is the same. If a public employee and private sector employee both make 50K a year (total compensation), but the public employee gets 48% of that compensation as benefits and the private sector employee gets 0%.... they still cost the same to their employer. The private sector employee could go buy benefits with the 48% of their pay that the public employee has done for them automatically.
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Total compensation is what makes a difference to tax payers.
True. The problem is that these costs are part of the retirement package, and the public pays the cost as long as the teacher and/or his/her spouse live. As people are living longer, the costs of these benefits packages are increasing. That's why we have the crises not just in Wisconsin with the teachers union and public employees, but nationwide for public employees, SS recipients, Medicare recipients, and so on.
Wisconsin is a right to work state, so if an employer decides he can't afford to pay union benefits, he can go non-union (although it's a difficult undertaking, as my BIL is finding out with his plumbing company). Or the employer can move elsewhere.
If the taxpayers of WI decide they can't afford the union benefits for teachers, they can't hire other teachers, as the union has a monopoly on the jobs. The taxpayers can move to another state, but it's easier to change the rules for the teacher benefits than it is to lose citizens.
Do you know if there's any difference between education level (and therefore expected compensation) between public & private school teachers?
Why is there such a fixation with education level? I'm not talking about you specifically, but with so many people in general. Education level in and of itself isn't a measure of competence or performance, for teachers or doctors or engineers or any other profession.
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Why is there such a fixation with education level? I'm not talking about you specifically, but with so many people in general. Education level in and of itself isn't a measure of competence or performance, for teachers or doctors or engineers or any other profession.
I put the reason right there in the parenthesis. People with higher education generally make more money. Same thing with experience. That isn't a measure of competence or performance either but if you're going to compare apples to apples you need to take those kind of things into account because in the real world they affect what people get paid.
Maybe your question was more just a way of saying it shouldn't be this way?
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People with higher education generally make more money.
So is it your contention that someone who has a bachelor's degree in education should make the same amount of money as, say, the CEO of a small company who has a bachelor's degree in business? I'm just trying to understand where the issue of education level fits into arguments over benefits and collective bargaining.
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These are the kind of numbers I'm looking for! Do you have a source for this?
http://www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol11No3/Niederjohn11.3.pdf
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So is it your contention that someone who has a bachelor's degree in education should make the same amount of money as, say, the CEO of a small company who has a bachelor's degree in business?
No, I didn't say anything close to that. When doing a comparison, things like cost of living, experience, and education should be taken into account because they do (http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm) affect income. That's all I was saying - nothing about should or shouldn't.
I'm just trying to understand where the issue of education level fits into arguments over benefits and collective bargaining.
I haven't said anything about collective bargaining either. The topic I have the most interest in is whether or not public employees in Wisconsin are "overpaid." How they are compensated compared to their private sector counter parts, how they are compensated compared to public employees in other states, and if the job they do merits the compensation they receive (difficult to measure, I admit.) Unfortunately there's a lot of switching back and forth between all public employees and specifically teachers that makes it hard to get & compare numbers but either are of interest to me. I realize that this thread is more general than that and I don't mean to hog it to satisfy my own curiosity, but it is at least relevant to the broader topic.
http://www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol11No3/Niederjohn11.3.pdf
Excellent, thank you.
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Unfortunately there's a lot of switching back and forth between all public employees and specifically teachers that makes it hard to get & compare numbers but either are of interest to me.
Yes, there's a lot of switching back and forth, probably because it's more difficult to get number for corrections officers or state troopers than it is to get numbers for teachers. Nonetheless, there's a spillover effect. Teachers don't operate in a vacuum. If they're getting X, then cops or corrections officers are getting something similar. That's why I mentioned in this thread or another the pension deal that Milwaukee cops have.
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I would like to point out one thing to consider while we are bashing teachers and teachers unions. I'm pretty sure it was Fox that was reporting that 60% of the teachers in Milwaukee didn't call in sick. Let's just remember that they aren't ALL dirtbags.
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I'd also like to point out that there are doctors giving out "notes" explaining the "teachers" absence so they can still get paid while they're protesting.
Oh yeah, those notes are being given out on the street corners, with no care taken as to whom is asking for them, free, no consulting really, other than the doctors asking them how they're feeling, and coming to the conclusion that those people are suffering mental stress, and telling them that they should take the day off to rest.
There's several videos about it circulating now, so you can find them on youtube, and I am reasonably certain that FOX has been reporting the story.
Now here's my take on that....those doctors need their medical license revoked, not just suspended for fraud.
Those "teachers" need to be fired for fraud.
End of story.
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I would like to point out one thing to consider while we are bashing teachers and teachers unions. I'm pretty sure it was Fox that was reporting that 60% of the teachers in Milwaukee didn't call in sick. Let's just remember that they aren't ALL dirtbags.
+amillioneleventy
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They're not even trying to be discrete about it. I wonder if there's enough video evidence here to have the doctors shown lose their licenses.
video (http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/19/video-doctors-handing-out-fake-medical-excuses-at-wi-union-protest/)
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did the union get the moral turpitude clause outa the contract?
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Right, those who did stay at the job should definately keep their jobs, but every one of them who called in sick with a fake note need to be fired post haste, along with those doctors who provided those notes.
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Here's a leftist political cartoonist's take on the matter:
http://disruptthenarrative.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/liberal-wisconsin-political-cartoonist-sides-with/
I'll pause while you pick your collective jaws off the floor... :lol:
If the unions have lost the leftist political cartoonists, they're done for.
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Here's a leftist political cartoonist's take on the matter:
http://disruptthenarrative.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/liberal-wisconsin-political-cartoonist-sides-with/
I'll pause while you pick your collective jaws off the floor... :lol:
If the unions have lost the leftist political cartoonists, they're done for.
"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service," President Franklin D. Roosevelt wrote in 1937 to the head of the National Federation of Federal Employees. In the private sector, organized employees and the employer meet across the bargaining table as (theoretical) equals. But in the public sector, said FDR, "the employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress." Allowing public-employee unions to engage in collective bargaining would mean opening the door to the manipulation of government policy by a privileged private interest.
Well, that cartoonist is in good company then.
IMO, any liberal looking at the issue logically (I know, don't laugh) would be on the side of the Republicans, if for slightly different reasons. Because they would be concerned about the services they provide to the people, and that the public sector payroll would eat up the available funds for those services.
The fundamental underlying reason to protest this is the loss of the union monopoly that's in the budget bill, and it's ability to act as a revenue and lobbying machine for the Democrats. Making the union and it's dues non-mandatory is the real core of the issue for them. Ginning up the teachers and other public sector workers is just to provide useful cannon fodder to make a good crowd in the Capitol.
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IMO, any liberal looking at the issue logically (I know, don't laugh) would be on the side of the Republicans, if for slightly different reasons. Because they would be concerned about the services they provide to the people, and that the public sector payroll would eat up the available funds for those services.
Many times, the gov't payroll created by <insert_new_govt_program> is the end sought.
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Many times, the gov't payroll created by <insert_new_govt_program> is the end sought.
Oh indeed. That's the whole point. Democrats pass legislation to get more unionized .gov employees, collect union dues, union lobbies and campaigns to elect more Democrats, cycle repeats.
And that's why they're going apoplectic over the Republicans trying to break that cycle, and for a level playing field.
However, a smattering of honest/ethical liberal at least wants to see as much of the money as possible going to the actual people served instead of the bureaucracy.
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However, a smattering of honest/ethical liberal at least wants to see as much of the money as possible going to the actual people served instead of the bureaucracy.
Gotta add that liberals pay property taxes too and and least some of them are going to see through the waste and draw the correct conclusions.
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In Milwaukee in 2004 (according to the Wash Times) 29% of the teachers sent their kids to private schools.
ouch now theres a statement about their own work
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In Milwaukee in 2004 (according to the Wash Times) 29% of the teachers sent their kids to private schools.
ouch now theres a statement about their own work
Not only that, but the same teachers have been stridently against allowing vouchers for disadvantaged kids in the same district so that they could choose to go to the private schools as well. (Voucher= money pulled from public school to be given to private school to allow more educational choices for those who can't afford those better choices.)
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Well... in a racist/classist sort of way that would make sense.
I would wager that even with the worst aspects of union clock-watching, and tenured untouchability, the "problems" with MPS are probably way less than 50% the MPS teachers and admin, and way more than 50% of the "MPS kids" themselves.
It's harsh, but when presented with a disaster, or even multiple medical problems in one patient, you apply the concept of triage.
And in triage, it's about saving who/or what you can.
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I would wager that even with the worst aspects of union clock-watching, and tenured untouchability, the "problems" with MPS are probably way less than 50% the MPS teachers and admin, and way more than 50% of the "MPS kids" themselves.
Sorry, but tenured teachers most certainly can be fired. The problem isn't tenure it is school administrators who either don't see that there is a problem or don't take the steps needed to fire that person.
I wanted to know whether the public perception was true, so I took an informal poll among the teachers I know. First I asked, “Is it possible to fire a bad teacher who has tenure?” The answer was a rousing and unanimous “Yes!” It’s harder, I was told, to fire a tenured teacher than a non-tenured teacher, but it certainly is possible.
http://www.educationworld.com/a_issues/issues359.shtml
http://neatoday.org/2010/09/17/what-tenure-is-and-what-it%E2%80%99s-not/
Just for a little balance here is a link to a story where the teacher should have been fired but wasn't.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/article987898.ece
Or google any combination of Michelle Rhee, tenure and public school teacher.
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Sorry, but tenured teachers most certainly can be fired. The problem isn't tenure it is school administrators who either don't see that there is a problem or don't take the steps needed to fire that person.
http://www.educationworld.com/a_issues/issues359.shtml
http://neatoday.org/2010/09/17/what-tenure-is-and-what-it%E2%80%99s-not/
Just for a little balance here is a link to a story where the teacher should have been fired but wasn't.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/article987898.ece
Or google any combination of Michelle Rhee, tenure and public school teacher.
Next, I asked, “Is the real reason that bad teachers remain in the classroom the unwillingness of administrators to take on the admittedly arduous and publicly risky task of documenting and acting upon a teacher's failure?” The response again was -- a slightly more guarded -- “Yes!” But it was not quite unanimous.
Of course it is possible to fire any teacher. It's also possible to win the lottery.
You know what those two possibilities have in common? Just about how likely they are to occur.
Let's look at NYC and their process for firing tenured teachers:
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/education/2008/05/04/2008-05-04_teachers_in_trouble_spending_years_in_ru.html
Oh, but wait, those "rubber rooms" have finally been done away with!
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/nyregion/16rubber.html
“The fact that you won’t have teachers in these rooms sitting all day doing nothing is a positive step,” said Dan Weisberg, the former labor chief for the Department of Education and now a vice president of the New Teacher Project, which has argued for better teacher evaluations and an easier process to dismiss teachers. “But the problem we should be trying to solve is that there are huge barriers that still exist to terminate chronically ineffective teachers. This agreement doesn’t appear to address that at all.”
So, possible, yes. Apparently it takes a lot just for an administration to even begin the process because of how stupidly difficult it is.
As CS&D says, although it's possible to fire a teacher, it's unlikely to happen due to the efforts of the union to protect incompetent members.
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"When school children start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children."
--------Albert Shanker, former president, American Federation of Teachers
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rhees on her way out the door fired 226
bet that less than 50 stay fired after union does its thing. i would not be surprised to see em all get their jobs back with back pay
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Of course it is possible to fire any teacher. It's also possible to win the lottery.
You know what those two possibilities have in common? Just about how likely they are to occur.
Let's look at NYC and their process for firing tenured teachers:
The problem isn't tenure. I have no problem with tenure. The problem is that too many administrators either aren't doing their job or have let the process get out of their control. Which also means that too many school boards aren't doing their jobs.
This is a quote from the article about rubber rooms.
A recent Education Department analysis found that the average accused educator waits four months as investigators interview witnesses and decide whether to bring formal charges, then nine months for a hearing and six more for a decision.
Don't blame that on the teacher. The blame for the process taking 19 months belongs to the school boards and administrations. Part of the blame also probably lies with a teachers union but that is a whole different subject.
rhees on her way out the door fired 226
bet that less than 50 stay fired after union does its thing. i would not be surprised to see em all get their jobs back with back pay
Maybe. But what about all the teachers and principals she fired between 2007 and 2010? I bet most of them stay fired.
That spring, Rhee began firing principals. Sixty-one principals and assistant principals were fired at the end of the school year. Next came the teachers. By July of 2008, according to some reports (neither DCPS nor the Washington Teachers‘ Union will release actual numbers), Rhee had fired 250 teachers and 500 teachers aides, avoiding union due-process rules by utilizing the ―highly qualified‖ certification requirements of the federal No Child Left Behind Act.(3)
In the spring and summer of 2009 the district hired more than 900 new teachers—three times the usual number of summer hires. Then, in October, Rhee announced that a newly discovered budget shortfall required that 266 teachers be laid off. (6)Because the layoffs were budget related, principals were free to ignore the ―last hired, first fired‖ rules in the union contract.
But Rhee wasn‘t done. On July 23, 2010, she announced 165 additional teacher firings. Of those, 76 were dismissed as a result of poor evaluations under IMPACT. And, as feared, some of the fired teachers were among the most experienced, dynamic, and beloved educators in the system. Rhee boasted that more than 700 additional teachers had been judged ―minimally effective‖ through IMPACT, and that a significant number of them would no doubt be fired after the next school year. The union‘s working group had not even met.
http://www.dfpe.org/pdf/Proving-Grounds-School-Rheeform-In-Washington-DC-Fall-2010.pdf
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of Michelle Rhee. But you can't deny the fact that she has fired teachers. But this is all off topic, I just got tired of listening to one of the usual mantras here on APS, that all public school teachers suck. Maybe I'll start a new thread just to debate that one topic.
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and as a result of doing what was long overdue in dc rhees out the door.
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What I find interesting is that the public employees are willing to take pay and benefit cuts, it's only their right to collective bargaining that is stopping an agreement.
If this is only about the budget short fall then why hasn't an agreement already been made?
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What I find interesting is that the public employees are willing to take pay and benefit cuts, it's only their right to collective bargaining that is stopping an agreement.
If this is only about the budget short fall then why hasn't an agreement already been made?
The issue at hand is Gov. Scott Walker actually gives a damn about local municipal and county budgets too.
By removing the collective bargaining rights for benefits, and only keeping them for pay (which is limited to inflation/cost of living), the local school boards can actually get their costs under control locally.... when the new state budget comes out and state-aid for local.gov gets cut.
This is just the opening gambit. Wait until the Republicans start pushing through their WI state budget. It'll be like a kid's first day at fat-camp, when he goes to the cafeteria, and is given a plate of celery sticks, and a 4oz glass of skim milk for lunch. >:D
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so far 75 of rhees fires have been reinstated at a cost in the millions with back pay. union forever kids last. still many more awaiting their hearings
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What I find interesting is that the public employees are willing to take pay and benefit cuts, it's only their right to collective bargaining that is stopping an agreement.
If this is only about the budget short fall then why hasn't an agreement already been made?
I bet it was that war criminal George Bush's doing. He's pretty much responsible for everything bad in the world.
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http://www.wisn.com/budget-battle/26956968/detail.html (http://www.wisn.com/budget-battle/26956968/detail.html)
MADISON, Wis. -- State senators who miss two or more session days will no longer get paid through direct deposit. They'll have to pick up their checks in person on the Senate floor during a session.
:laugh:
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Our dumb-ass Minnesota governor, Mark Dayton, supported the protesters, telling them that such "...drastic and extreme measures..." won't happen in Minnesota "...because you have me!"
What a maroon! Asking the teachers to pay 12% of their health insurance and a portion (I forget the percentage) of their pension is neither drastic nor extreme.
Dayton is a twit.
jb
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Oh, and Indiana
Governor Groveler Mitch "Weak Sister" Daniels has pretty much knocked himself outta contention for 2012 POTUS candidate in the GOP:
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/260419/daniels-won-t-fight-right-work-legislation-katrina-trinko
"Gov. Mitch Daniels made it clear in a press conference today that he was not prepared to fight for the passage of right-to-work legislation, which is being pushed by GOP state lawmakers. Today most Indiana Democrat assembly members left the state in order to ensure there would not be a quorum."
He calls a "truce" on traditional values.
He won't comment on illegal immigration at all.
He won't fight for right to work.
Let Indiana keep him.
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We don't want him here in Indiana. I had hope but this crap makes me sick. Hey let's compromise by giving their side everything they want while we get nothing. Very disappointed and far from alone.
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The Assembly voted last night about 1am, here's the results:
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/insession/insessiondocs/Votes/av0177.htm (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/insession/insessiondocs/Votes/av0177.htm)
Text of the bill:
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/data/JR1SB-11.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/data/JR1SB-11.pdf)
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Huh. Four of the (so-called) Republicans voted "Nay". Apparently RINOs aren't found only in Africa.
jb
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Oh, and Indiana Governor Groveler Mitch "Weak Sister" Daniels has pretty much knocked himself outta contention for 2012 POTUS candidate in the GOP:
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/260419/daniels-won-t-fight-right-work-legislation-katrina-trinko
"Gov. Mitch Daniels made it clear in a press conference today that he was not prepared to fight for the passage of right-to-work legislation, which is being pushed by GOP state lawmakers. Today most Indiana Democrat assembly members left the state in order to ensure there would not be a quorum."
He calls a "truce" on traditional values.
He won't comment on illegal immigration at all.
He won't fight for right to work.
Let Indiana keep him.
Yeah, you probably wouldn't like him. He's a practical man more interested in fixing problems than stirring confrontation. He's not one for chest pounding.
There's a coupla dozen things that we need to get done this legislative session, right-to-work is only one of them. Pitching a fit over right-to-work may be emotionally satisfying, but it isn't very sensible. It compromises everything else we need to get done this session, stuff that's a lot more important in this comparatively union-free state.
And besides, we'll likely get right to work eventually anyway. So we're taking a risk, jeopardizing other important matters, without any real upside. This is the wrong way to handle things, it's bad strategy, and Daniels is right to point that out.
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Yeah, you probably wouldn't like him. He's a practical man more interested in fixing problems than stirring confrontation. He's not one for chest pounding.
There's a coupla dozen things that we need to get done this legislative session, right-to-work is only one of them. Pitching a fit over right-to-work may be emotionally satisfying, but it isn't very sensible. It compromises everything else we need to get done this session, stuff that's a lot more important in this comparatively union-free state.
And besides, we'll likely get right to work eventually anyway. So we're taking a risk, jeopardizing other important matters, without any real upside. This is the wrong way to handle things, it's bad strategy, and Daniels is right to point that out.
I'm probably one of the most understanding people that there is a time and a place for strategy, but Gov. Daniels fails here. He gave up on the legislation and got nothing for it.
That's a bad strategy. You don't make concessions in a negotiation without getting something in return. Justified or not, he looks like an appeaser and conservatives have no stomach for that crap anymore.
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Not true. Daniels hasn't given up on it at all, and he's repeatedly said that he supports right-to-work and has no problem with the legislation, and wants it visited this summer. The issue is entirely about when and how to best pursue it. Now is not the right time, and there are more important matters to attend to right now.
Most of this debate, including the Governors remarks, are left over from a few months ago, back when state Republicans were laying plans and strategies for the upcoming legislative session. It seems that the wider media is only now beginning to notice it thanks to events in Wisconsin, and as usual, they're getting the story more wrong than right. There were some misquotes in the local press, and everybody seems to be running with those instead of what the Governor is actually saying.
EDIT:
I want to add that the big item we're bringing before the legislature this session is a solid school voucher program. That's what Daniels gets in return for postponing the right-to-work debate, for keeping the legislative session on track. There's some other minor stuff, like lower corporate taxes and a bill to return any unspent tax dollars to the people at the end of the year. But school vouchers is the biggie, that's what we're playing for. We're keeping our powder dry for that fight.
Keep in mind that Daniels broke the Indiana public sector unions when he first came into office, back on '04 or '05 or thereabouts. And he's kept the state budget more-or-less in balance every year. That means we're already way ahead of the game, we're not in the same union/budget/deficit/pension mess as other states like Wisconsin, Illinois, and Ohio.
Private sector unions are comparatively weak in Indiana, so we can afford to put off any private sector right-to-work legislation for a few months. School vouchers are the higher priority. Republican state legislators swept in with a voter mandate to do the vouchers thing, and we're going to get that done.
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Kudos to them if that's the case.
A strong state-wide voucher system would have the same de-facto effect on the teachers unions as what's being pushed here in WI.
Of course, expanded vouchers/school choice AND limiting/eliminating collective bargaining together would be a great 1-2 punch.
We're doing it opposite of Indiana is all, there's some speculation as to how much expansion of school choice/vouchers is going to be in the budget. Which the pub-sector union bill is laying the groundwork for.
Essentially, Walker and the Republicans are looking to limit the collective bargaining not because it's a big issue for the state directly, but it is to the local municipal governments and school districts, and those state supplemental funds are going to be cut... severely in the upcoming budget. And with the teachers forced to take some enhanced contributions, and all collective bargaining limited to CPI/COLA/inflation, the local .gov won't be bankrupted by them.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Q0lxJz2VDhs%2FTWPoSuVu7JI%2FAAAAAAAAEqw%2FyxViiTKoLLU%2Fs250%2FMilkCarton.jpg&hash=8566f48adb88fe3f819aaad68d9423c44cb2ac8b)
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The measure of a good general is not his deliberative process, not his fine uniform, and not his intricately laid plans. The measure of a good general is winning battles. In Indiana, it is pretty obvious the Democrats are lead by a better general than the GOP, as they went all Sun Tzu on Daniels and won without even having to give battle.
Sometimes you don't get to fight on ground of your own choosing. A good leader will be able to adapt to changing circumstances, not narrow-mindedly follow their plan into the abyss. The Dems are set up to battle on right to work, and Daniels ceded the field. They are handing conservatives a golden opportunity to show the center just how radical they are and how entitled they feel.
Walker, OTOH, is kicking their asses, building political capital, and rallying support for conservative issues. It is the left that is "pitching a fit" and alienating the center. Heck, the gov't worker unions can't even get more than milquetoast support from private-sector unions. When the Dems come crawling back, Walker will be more able to get his agenda through the legislature.
The tone has been set in Indiana, all right...by the Democrats. It is a tone of defeat for conservative issues, right off the bat. I'd bet dollars to donuts this will make it more difficult to pass other conservative initiatives in Indiana, including the proposed voucher system.
Besides, this is just another indication that Daniels doesn't have the stones to tackle tough issues and is not mentally flexible enough to walk and chew gum at the same time in the political realm. He squished on social conservatism, he squished on immigration too. If he were female & from Texas, his name would be Kay Bailey Hutchison.
Don't worry, Daniels is safe in Indiana. He is going nowhere, certainly not in 2012.
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What have the Democrats in Indiana won? They lost the battle over public sector unions years ago. They've been losing battles over budgets and government management for years, too. They got their butts kicked on RKBA, on taxes, on spending, on business, on infrastructure, on outsourcing, you name it. They're presently losing the fight over public education and they'll have the right-to-work stuff passed over their heads later this year.
But you know better. You know that Daniels has no stomach for a fight, he hides from the tough issues, he's a bumbling boob who doesn't know how to win, who gets his ass kicked at every turn. Right?
It's pretty clear that Republicans only win, in your mind, if they do things your way. Getting results any other way doesn't register as a victory for you. You're so invested in fighting the fight, with all of your military imagery and your pseudo-intellectual Sun Tzu nonsense, that you don't hardly notice the outcome anymore. You've lost sight of why you're fighting at all.
So I'll leave you to it. Enjoy your battles in Wisconsin and wherever else. Stick it to 'em. Make 'em bleed. Savor every glorious moment of schadenfreude.
Who knows, maybe someday, eventually, you'll win enough to catch up to us in Indiana. :P
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http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/25/organized-medical-fraud-in-wisconsin/
tax dollars at work
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What have the Democrats in Indiana won? They lost the battle over public sector unions years ago. They've been losing battles over budgets and government management for years, too. They got their butts kicked on RKBA, on taxes, on spending, on business, on infrastructure, on outsourcing, you name it. They're presently losing the fight over public education and they'll have the right-to-work stuff passed over their heads later this year.
But you know better. You know that Daniels has no stomach for a fight, he hides from the tough issues, he's a bumbling boob who doesn't know how to win, who gets his ass kicked at every turn. Right?
It's pretty clear that Republicans only win, in your mind, if they do things your way. Getting results any other way doesn't register as a victory for you. You're so invested in fighting the fight, with all of your military imagery and your pseudo-intellectual Sun Tzu nonsense, that you don't hardly notice the outcome anymore. You've lost sight of why you're fighting at all.
So I'll leave you to it. Enjoy your battles in Wisconsin and wherever else. Stick it to 'em. Make 'em bleed. Savor every glorious moment of schadenfreude.
Who knows, maybe someday, eventually, you'll win enough to catch up to us in Indiana. :P
There was no battle over public sector unions in Indiana, IIRC. Daniels was able to manage it via executive order. All it required was paper & ink.
Hey, I'm sorry you get all butthurt when your golden boy comes in for some criticism. I don't have nearly the sensitivity for criticism of my own Governor Goodhair. I'd suggest some Gold Bond and maybe toughen up a bit.
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There was no battle over public sector unions in Indiana, IIRC. Daniels was able to manage it via executive order. All it required was paper & ink.
Hey, I'm sorry you get all butthurt when your golden boy comes in for some criticism. I don't have nearly the sensitivity for criticism of my own Governor Goodhair. I'd suggest some Gold Bond and maybe toughen up a bit.
Oooh, butthurt. Keepin' it classy!
You clearly don't know much about Daniels. I don't think it's too much to ask that you refrain from spouting off about him from ignorance.
And can we carry on with the conversation without childish insults?
You mentioned Sun Tzu earlier. Are you actually familiar with his thinking? One of the his ideas is that it's best to win is without fighting, that the skilled general can secure victory without confrontation.
Why are you so hung up on head-to-head confrontation and brute force as the only viable strategy?
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Oooh, butthurt. Keepin' it classy!
I calls 'em as I see 'em.
Anyways, you're taking criticism of Daniels awfully personally and your reaction has been kinda whiny, right from the get-go.
You clearly don't know much about Daniels. I don't think it's too much to ask that you refrain from spouting off about him from ignorance.
Case in point. "Stop SAYing those things about my governor!"
None of the GOP policritters, not even those I voted for, are without flaws. When they step on their johnson, it is not outrageous to point it out. Daniels has shown himself not ready for the Bigs, what with his tendency to go for the capillary. He's got plenty of company with other GOP POTUS also-rans.
I'm probably one of the most understanding people that there is a time and a place for strategy, but Gov. Daniels fails here. He gave up on the legislation and got nothing for it.
That's a bad strategy. You don't make concessions in a negotiation without getting something in return. Justified or not, he looks like an appeaser and conservatives have no stomach for that crap anymore.
mak makes some good points, one of which is that Daniels doesn't understand the mood of the GOP base at this juncture and the way the center has moved toward the right due to the actions of the Dems(1). He could have emphasized the radicalism of the Dems and the reasonableness of the GOP, but chose to give them an out and a victory because this opportunity wasn't accounted for in Mitch's Big Plan. BHO had such a tin ear for the Green protests in Iran. They didn't fit BHO's plan to sit down & talk with the mullahs, so BHO flubbed that opportunity, too.
You mentioned Sun Tzu earlier. Are you actually familiar with his thinking? One of the his ideas is that it's best to win is without fighting, that the skilled general can secure victory without confrontation.
Why are you so hung up on head-to-head confrontation and brute force as the only viable strategy?
Yep, and the Dems in Indiana showed how to put him to use, and can use that victory to their advantage in subsequent engagements. Hopefully, Daniels will recover despite being slapped about, right out of the gate.
In any case, Sun Tzu was not all Fabian maneuver. If you have the advantage, which Daniels did (given the way Dems have been alienating the center with their radicalism), I don't recall reading in any of the translations that you then cede the field after the opposition chose their ground poorly.
The Dems set themselves up for a beating and Daniels gave them an out. I have nothing against maneuver, guile, misdirection, and other such tactics. They have their place, as does a big ol' cluebat, when the opposition is so kind as to stick his fat noggin in the way of it.
(1) A recurring theme. The drift of the center away from BHO & the Dems has been due to Dem actions. About the only thing the GOP has done to help has been to draw out the spectacle as long as possible and keep the Dem radicalism front & center on issue after issue. The Tan Man (Boehner) made noise like he understands this. Too many GOP policritters still seem to think it was due to their own wonderfulness.
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Would it be "kidnapping" if one of the Dems was snagged by a WI state trooper who crossed the line, cuffed a Senator against his will, and drove him back into WI to the Capitol?
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If he crossed the state line out of his jurisdiction, yes. If he was in WI, it would probably be unlawful arrest or unlawful restraint. Maybe he could have a fellow trooper in IL hand over the Dem at the state line. ;)
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Case in point. "Stop SAYing those things about my governor!"
Indeed. Knock it off. This isn't the playground, it isn't the place for insults and childish namecalling.
None of the GOP policritters, not even those I voted for, are without flaws. When they step on their johnson, it is not outrageous to point it out. Daniels has shown himself not ready for the Bigs, what with his tendency to go for the capillary. He's got plenty of company with other GOP POTUS also-rans.
If getting the results we've gotten in Indiana is "stepping on your johnson" then so be it. We could use a lot more of it, all across the country.
Daniels isn't without flaws, true. But the stuff you're harping on him for aren't flaws at all. His ways may be different from the way you'd like to see things done, his priorities different from yours, but you can't argue with the success he's had. Not if you measure success by results.
mak makes some good points, one of which is that Daniels doesn't understand the mood of the GOP base at this juncture and the way the center has moved toward the right due to the actions of the Dems(1). He could have emphasized the radicalism of the Dems and the reasonableness of the GOP, but chose to give them an out and a victory because this opportunity wasn't accounted for in Mitch's Big Plan. BHO had such a tin ear for the Green protests in Iran. They didn't fit BHO's plan to sit down & talk with the mullahs, so BHO flubbed that opportunity, too.
You're kidding, right? We've created the perfect contrast against the Dems' radicalism precisely by not being petty partisan radicals ourselves.
The Dems are trying to make us out to be overaggressive and heavy handed, claiming that our actions forced them to flee. We won't prove them wrong be being overaggressive and heavy handed in response. We prove them wrong by being reasonable and sensible, by calmly going about the peoples' business in a grown up fashion.
Hoosiers don't want firebrands and demagogues, theatrics and vitriol. We want reasonable folks doing reasonable things. Hardline confrontation? Not so much.
You're right that the conservative base wants a fight. But is giving them one them a fight over right-to-work the smart thing to do right now? The goal in politics is to to enact our policy. To that end the target audience isn't the base, and the purpose is not to stoke up the base's passions. We're playing to the entire state, not preaching to the choir. We aren't trying to earn a nomination for the Governor, and we're not trying to give people like you an opportunity to cheer for blood.
We're trying to implement the school voucher program in Indiana. Don't lose sight of that, don't let the other side distract you.
Yep, and the Dems in Indiana showed how to put him to use, and can use that victory to their advantage in subsequent engagements. Hopefully, Daniels will recover despite being slapped about, right out of the gate.
In any case, Sun Tzu was not all Fabian maneuver. If you have the advantage, which Daniels did (given the way Dems have been alienating the center with their radicalism), I don't recall reading in any of the translations that you then cede the field after the opposition chose their ground poorly.
The Dems set themselves up for a beating and Daniels gave them an out. I have nothing against maneuver, guile, misdirection, and other such tactics. They have their place, as does a big ol' cluebat, when the opposition is so kind as to stick his fat noggin in the way of it.
You speak as though the fight is over and settled. Don't be so shortsighted. We're only just beginning.
What have the Dems gained in Indiana so far? Nothing. A temporary reprieve from a right-to-work bill that we didn't really want or need at this time, one that we'll still get later this year anyway. And at what price? They're using up all of their capital on this little temper tantrum of theirs. Let them stay away! Let them reject our olive branches to them! The longer they stay away, and the more petulant they are about it, the less support they'll have when they return.
We're laying the groundwork for easier passage of our legislation once the Dems do eventually come back into the state. And they're making it easier and easier by the day.
You love your military platitudes. Don't forget the one about not to interrupting your enemy when he's making a mistake.
Above all, don't lose sight of the big picture. The goal isn't to make the Dems look bad RFN. It isn't to punishingly defeat them at every turn. Let's not get so hung up on each and every battle that we lose the larger war.
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And with that, I'm done here. I return you to your regularly scheduled thread about Wisconsin politics.
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*heh*
Couple random ideas on how to get the wayward dems back to the capitol...
Tell the dems that the state senate isn't going to vote directly on the bill (since that requires a quorum) but rather that they're going to vote on a bill that would deem the assembly's version of the bill passed.... (Good for the goose, good for the gander, etc...)
Or, spread a rumor that you're going to do the above, but that the republicans only have 1 or 2 votes more than they need in order to pull the stunt. When the dems show up to vote it down, lock the chamber doors and hold the real vote on the actual bill. :)
Schedule a vote to change the senate rules to no longer require a quorum. Again, stating that they only have one or two votes more than what they need to pull it off. lock the doors, etc.
To really have fun with it, introduce a bill that states that if you miss x number of daily roll calls in a row, you are considered to have abandoned your position, and the governor can appoint your replacement. :)
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Truthful Whitefoot or Lying Blackfoot?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Famericanglob.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F02%2FUnion-Supporter.jpg&hash=6768ab13ccc3fc9d9954dc3368af480bc01040ea)
Certainly not Fleet of foot.
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As evidenced by the placards I've seen, like moths to the flame, the whack-jobs are converging on Madison. ;/
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As evidenced by the placards I've seen, like moths to the flame, the whack-jobs are converging on Madison. ;/
FYI: Mad-town normally has more than enough whack-jobs even without busing them in from other states.
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Yeah, really, there's a dude down there on the main central street in front of the capitol, every summer selling fruit juice and smoothies from a cart. And he owned a Deli there too.
He was one of the original Sterling Hall Bombers. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_Hall_bombing) :facepalm:
Even if the assorted fruits and nuts of Berkley are more mouthy, AFAIK, few if any of them have actually blown stuff up in the name of... whatever.
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i liked reading this
"In 1987, after passing the Oregon Bar exam, Fine was denied admission to the Bar on the grounds that "he had failed to show good moral character." Fine appealed the decision to the Supreme Court of Oregon which upheld the decision. In the court's decision it was written, "He has not shown himself to be a credible person and did not establish that he now has the good moral character required to practice law. We base our decision on applicant's present statements about his past acts. We recognize that persons can and do reform. However, in this case applicant's deceitful, self-serving conduct persisted at the time of the hearing."[14]"
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i liked reading this
"In 1987, after passing the Oregon Bar exam, Fine was denied admission to the Bar on the grounds that "he had failed to show good moral character."
Any relation?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Ff%2Ff9%2FLarryFineheadfshopt.jpg&hash=df6a497bcf89708b2b9ef1df4c2c5ab9ad714350)
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I wonder how they are going to spin this one:
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20110303/GPG0101/110303103/1207&located=rss (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20110303/GPG0101/110303103/1207&located=rss)
Live ammo found at capital, 41 rounds of 22LR. Also mentioned is there was $7.5M damage done to the capital. =(
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Also mentioned is there was $7.5M damage done to the capital.
Just raise property taxes to cover the cost.
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$7.5M is an awful lot of dough.
Color me skeptical.
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$7.5M is an awful lot of dough.
Color me skeptical.
Union labor rates. :lol:
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Union labor rates.
And replacing damaged marble isn't cheap either.
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http://www.wisn.com/r-video/27074185/detail.html
great fun dem legislator tackled by cops
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same vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzyuenkFZEY), this link will load much faster.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwxiRXqH_hQ
too much
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http://althouse.blogspot.com/2011/03/union-thuggery-against-althouse-and.html
Bowlderized to keep tyhe language semi-safe and polite. OK, just to eliminate the overt use of the F-bomb.)
WE WILL F*** YOU UP. We will throw our baseballs in your lawn, you cranky oldpieces of sh!t, and then we will come get them back. What are you gonna do? Shootus? Get Wausau Tea Patriots to form an ad hoc militia on your front lawn? That wouldbe f***ing HILAROUS to us. You could get to know the a$$holes on your side in realfU***ing life instead of sponging off the civil society we provide for you every single dayyou draw breath.Pay your dues or action will be taken. The action will be legal, peaceful, and nonviolent(on our end anyway – if you want to do it the other way fine with us. Meade is a toughguy on LGM or whatever but he's a chickensh!t IRL. We dare you buddy. Double dogdare you.) but it will also be swift, decisive, direct, personal and effective.
If you have not acceded to our demands within a week, it is ON LIKE DONKEY KONG. WE AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE. EVER. WE LIVE HERE 100% OF THEF***ING TIME. YOU CAN'T BAN MADISON FROM LIVING IN MADISON, BUT WECAN SURE AS SH!T BAN YOU. WHO ARE YOU GONNA CALL? COPS FORLABOR? THE CHICKENSH!T TEA ASSWIPES WHO ARE SCARED SH!TLESS OF THETEAMSTERS TRUCKS? THE NATIONAL GUARD? SCOTT WALKER? NO ONE ISGOING TO COME AND CRACK DOWN ON US FOR YOU. THERE IS NO CAVALRY.ITS US VS YOU ON THE STREETS OF THE CITY GOING AS FAR AS IT HAS TO GOUNTIL A) WE WIN OR B) DOOMSDAY.
I beg your pardon? What exactly has happened to upset you so?
WHO ARE YOU GONNA CALL? COPS FORLABOR?
From some of the news stories, that may in fact be an accurate description of the cops.
What the [bad word deleted] happened? Who [bad word deleted] in his Wheaties?
stay safe.
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http://althouse.blogspot.com/2011/03/union-thuggery-against-althouse-and.html
Bowlderized to keep tyhe language semi-safe and polite. OK, just to eliminate the overt use of the F-bomb.)
I beg your pardon? What exactly has happened to upset you so?
From some of the news stories, that may in fact be an accurate description of the cops.
What the [bad word deleted] happened? Who [bad word deleted] in his Wheaties?
stay safe.
And where's the Blood Libel media on this story? Oh, that's right, it's not "tea partiers" so it obviously isn't newsworthy.
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Should have figured there was even more to this. Here is the link to where the rest of the story can be found. Standard NSFW caution given. Additional hippie patchtouli warning issued.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/50869881/Op-countertroll-Vs-Althouse-and-Meade
Changing my question: apparently it was not his Wheaties, but his granola that I should wonder who piddled in.
stay safe.
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Somebody has a 'chemical imbalance.' ;/
Latest disgusting tactics by the left-
-The State Secretary, Douglass Lafollette (yes, of the same useful-idiot clan as Bob LaFollette) is going to wait until the last possible minute to publish the new law.
-Madison DA is prosecuting Republican senators for violating open meetings law, despite the fact that many lawyers carefully analyzed the procedural laws before they made their moves. There are hefty fines being levied against individual republicans by the DA- an incredibly cynical act considering that the DA will do nothing about the missing 14 democrat senators.
-Wisconsin Police Association (WPPA) has sent letters to WI businesses threatening boycotts or worse if the corporations dont publicly condemn Walker. One of them is a homegrown chain of convenience stores that has no stance whatsoever except that someone who worked for the chain gave a nominal campaign contribution to Walker.
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The latest: a Dane county (that's Madison area) judge has put a stay on the implementation of the new law on collective bargaining. It could take months for the case to be sorted out.
The judge and others insist it's not politics, but the same judge refused to hear a complaint from school districts whose teachers didn't show up for work, shutting down the schools, and instead went to the protests.
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them kids done huffed themselves stupid. who know methane could build up to those levels in a city. [tinfoil]
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On the lighter side, has anyone given the teachers any credit for all that unpaid overtime they put in?
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On the lighter side, has anyone given the teachers any credit for all that unpaid overtime they put in?
Huh?
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The latest: a Dane county (that's Madison area) judge has put a stay on the implementation of the new law on collective bargaining. It could take months for the case to be sorted out.
The judge and others insist it's not politics, but the same judge refused to hear a complaint from school districts whose teachers didn't show up for work, shutting down the schools, and instead went to the protests.
WI SC justice Prosser is up for re-election in April, The left hopes they can put their sock puppet on the SC to shift the balance to 4-3 favoring the left. If they get this, they will challenge every law signed by Walker.
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Huh?
That was satire.
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WI SC justice Prosser is up for re-election in April, The left hopes they can put their sock puppet on the SC to shift the balance to 4-3 favoring the left. If they get this, they will challenge every law signed by Walker.
sorry for their luck..... not
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And the nice thing is, the unions were pushing HARD to replace Prosser...
Been a bad year for them already... :D
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WI SC justice Prosser is up for re-election in April, The left hopes they can put their sock puppet on the SC to shift the balance to 4-3 favoring the left. If they get this, they will challenge every law signed by Walker.
Sock puppet is a great way to describe her.
Check out her statement about the recount. The real win comes just after 1:30 in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oee6qB55bQ&feature=player_embedded
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I love the deer-in-the-headlights look when she was asked if she still "feels" that she's won.
There's almost zero chance the recount will change anything. It will cost millions of taxpayer dollars. Is this another instance of "lets keep counting until the numbers favor our side"? Also, didn't she oppose a recount when it was thought that she had won?
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I love the deer-in-the-headlights look when she was asked if she still "feels" that she's won.
.......
Speaking of an "oh, duuuuhhhhh" moment. :angel: >:D >:D >:D :angel:
I would NOT want her around during brain surgery...... [tinfoil]