Dystopia now: lights out in Detroit

[Balog]

Detroit, too broke to maintain it's streetlights, decides to turn half of them off. This should not be happening in America.

 http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-24/half-of-detroit-s-streetlights-may-go-out-as-city-shrinks.html

[Perd Hapley]

This should not be happening in America.

Is Detroit still in America, or is it in the Obamanation?

[Jamisjockey]

Detroit, too broke to maintain it's streetlights, decides to turn half of them off. This should not be happening in America.

 http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-24/half-of-detroit-s-streetlights-may-go-out-as-city-shrinks.html

Coming soon to a municipality near you.

[Ben]

“You have to identify those neighborhoods where you want to concentrate your population,” said Chris Brown, Detroit’s chief operating officer. “We’re not going to light distressed areas like we light other areas.”

Which of course, are the areas most susceptible to violent crime. I could understand the fiscal logic if they gave citizens the opportunity to defend themselves. When Sacramento, CA started laying off a lot of deputies due to their budget crisis, the Sheriff went essentially "shall issue" on CCW. Doubt that option will be available in Detroit.

[Viking]

Huh? Isn't Michigan shall-issue already? Or am I missing something?

[RoadKingLarry]

Coming soon to a municipality near you.

Tulsa did something similar a few years ago but when they shut off half is more like every other one

[Ben]

Huh? Isn't Michigan shall-issue already? Or am I missing something?

Maybe I am. I thought Detroit had some municipal restrictions?

[Tallpine]

Coming soon to a municipality near you.

Colorado Springs shut off every other light quite a while back.

[KD5NRH]

Colorado Springs shut off every other light quite a while back.

For a lot of places, that's actually an improvement; the excess light keeps people from getting dark-adapted, which makes for difficulty seeing into shadowed areas.  A better solution is to replace all the lights with ones that are properly shielded (redirecting the 40-50% of light output that often goes into the sky) and about a quarter of the original output (resulting in about half the original useful output) but turning every other one off is sort of an interim measure.

[just Warren]

I imagine that if there was a profit to be made by keeping the lights on, they would stay on.

[Balog]

Turning off every other light fixture is different than turning out the lights on the bad neighborhoods...

[Regolith]

For a lot of places, that's actually an improvement; the excess light keeps people from getting dark-adapted, which makes for difficulty seeing into shadowed areas.  A better solution is to replace all the lights with ones that are properly shielded (redirecting the 40-50% of light output that often goes into the sky) and about a quarter of the original output (resulting in about half the original useful output) but turning every other one off is sort of an interim measure.

+1000. Besides saving a lot of electricity (and hence, money) it also makes life easier for amateur astronomers.

[Balog]

I'm sure the Detroit ghetto is full of amateur astronomers who'll be delighted at this... :rolleyes:

[Regolith]

I'm sure the Detroit ghetto is full of amateur astronomers who'll be delighted at this... :rolleyes:

Light pollution from large cities can effect areas that are far larger than the city itself. It wouldn't be just the ghetto that would be affected.

[just Warren]

I'm sure the Detroit ghetto is full of amateur astronomers who'll be delighted at this... :rolleyes:

Yes, many of them want to make sure as many people see stars as possible.

[BridgeRunner]

Michigan is a shall-issue state, but Detroit is one of the many municipalities that has placed illegal restrictions on residents for years.  I understand there is legislation in the works that may change this, but one needs to obtain, from the local police, a permit to purchase a handgun.  One used to also need to bring the handgun in after purchase for a "safety inspection" aka registration.  The law required permits and "safety inspections" to be available during the department's regular business hours, but many municipalities blatantly refused to do that.  I don't know the details of Detroit's policy, but I know they had one.  Lansing only issues permits and conducted "safety inspections" two days a week.  

As for the idea that this should not be happening in America? Well, it would be nice if it wasn't.  I personally wish that I had been born and raised and built connections some place that hasn't been in economic decline my entire life.  It would be nice if I could make a living and possibly even have a decently running car and a small house after having spent thirty years pursuing a professional education. But I wasn't.  Detroit is severely contracted and cannot possibly even pretend to maintain its deadweight.  The people of Detroit wish that wasn't the case.  But it is.

Whether this is how things should be or not is immaterial.  This is how things are.  We all have to live in realityland, even if that means we can't keep all the lights on.  

They've been saying the last person out of Detroit should turn the lights off for decades now.  About time someone got around to flipping that switch.

[grampster]

Michigan Republican House and Senate and R Governor will shortly delete the laws that require police permit to purchase and the "safety inspection" (read illegal registration) requirement by LE. 
The State Police supported these bills, but at the last minute now opposes them.  I smell political machinations from D's.  There is also a movement to obliterate laws on no concealed carry locations.  But the R's are losing their nerve on this one.

[BridgeRunner]

Michigan Republican House and Senate and R Governor will shortly delete the laws that require police permit to purchase and the "safety inspection" (read illegal registration) requirement by LE. 
The State Police supported these bills, but at the last minute now opposes them.  I smell political machinations from D's.  There is also a movement to obliterate laws on no concealed carry locations.  But the R's are losing their nerve on this one.

Grampster, I've heard this, but went to read the bill and just couldn't find that in it anywhere.  RaspberrySurprise had the same experiene--actually it was his comments that prompted me to look up the text. There's definitely some politicking going on.  Whole thing just seems kinda' fishy.  Of course, I may have been reading the wrong version, or someone missed a cross-ref when they posted it.  I dunno what's going on there. 

I sure hope that that bs is getting gone, but I'll reserve my dancing in the streets for the day when they eliminate the language prohibiting any person with a diagnosed mental illness from obtaining a CPL.  It's not only ludicrous and arguable unconstitutional, but it demonstrates vast ignorance on the part pf the drafters about the nature of mental illness.

[grampster]

Bridgy, if you're speaking of the deletion of no carry zones, not in these bills.  Separate issue and Speaker Bolger and others seems to indicate a lack of will to change this.

The Permit to purchase and "safety inspection" deletion came out of committee unanimous on the R side and no support from the D side according to an MLive story last week.  Those bills default Michigan to the federal purchase rules and eliminate the "safety inspection" registration scheme.  CPL holders avoid the Michigan rules now as part of the Shall Issue law.  Records are still sent to the State Police and I suspect they are illegaly kept on record.

I agree with the lack of knowledge on mental illness.  I had a very close friend who was mentally ill who ended his own life because he couldn't deal with it and how his behavior while in the throws of it wrecked his family.  Although his drinking and drug use exacerbated his illness.  I experienced the lack of understanding and treatment trying to help out from time to time.  Not much has changed.

I doubt seriously that knowing that lack of understanding, anything will ever change regarding CPL.  There is too much fear involved and that drives politics.

[AJ Dual]

I'm sure the Detroit ghetto is full of amateur astronomers who'll be delighted at this... :rolleyes:

I thought the areas that had the lights going off were the ones that had almost nobody in them at all. Save maybe bears and deer.

What I find myself wondering is if the areas that have the streetlights going off will have their bulbs and parts salvaged as spares for the parts they are keeping lit. Or is that too much to ask of the city.

Perhaps instead of stiffing GM's bond-holders, and handing that value over to the UAW, the Obama Administration should have granted them large land-tracts of Detroit. The UAW seems quite adept at keeping their little corners of Detroit in nice shape.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=uaw+center+detroit&hl=en&ll=42.33792,-83.013715&spn=0.003077,0.005085&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=53.432436,83.320312&t=h&hq=uaw+center&hnear=Detroit,+Wayne,+Michigan&z=18

[Perd Hapley]

I thought the areas that had the lights going off were the ones that had almost nobody in them at all. Save maybe bears and deer.

What I find myself wondering is if the areas that have the streetlights going off will have their bulbs and parts salvaged as spares for the parts they are keeping lit. Or is that too much to ask of the city.

If they're going to do that, maybe they should look into the scrap value of the lamp posts.

[MicroBalrog]

Detroit, too broke to maintain it's streetlights, decides to turn half of them off. This should not be happening in America.

 http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-24/half-of-detroit-s-streetlights-may-go-out-as-city-shrinks.html

This has been happening in America for centuries.

Cities are born, cities die.

[MechAg94]

I thought the areas that had the lights going off were the ones that had almost nobody in them at all. Save maybe bears and deer.

What I find myself wondering is if the areas that have the streetlights going off will have their bulbs and parts salvaged as spares for the parts they are keeping lit. Or is that too much to ask of the city.

Perhaps instead of stiffing GM's bond-holders, and handing that value over to the UAW, the Obama Administration should have granted them large land-tracts of Detroit. The UAW seems quite adept at keeping their little corners of Detroit in nice shape.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=uaw+center+detroit&hl=en&ll=42.33792,-83.013715&spn=0.003077,0.005085&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=53.432436,83.320312&t=h&hq=uaw+center&hnear=Detroit,+Wayne,+Michigan&z=18

Spare parts?  No, no, no.  what they are really talking about is that they won't repair the lights that start going on and off all the time.  At any given time, half the lights will be overload/overheat and shut off while the other half already did so and are coming back on. 

I think other operative word is that Detroit is not actually going broke, they are just running short of money to give away to cronies and need to cut back somewhere useful to make sure they don't run out. 

[AJ Dual]

Spare parts?  No, no, no.  what they are really talking about is that they won't repair the lights that start going on and off all the time.  At any given time, half the lights will be overload/overheat and shut off while the other half already did so and are coming back on. 

I think other operative word is that Detroit is not actually going broke, they are just running short of money to give away to cronies and need to cut back somewhere useful to make sure they don't run out. 

I'm sure you're right, and any "savings" the cut backs in lighting creates are just wasted down the rathole of any number of inefficiencies and "not my job"-ism, just like those famous pictures of piles of moldering textbooks in Detroit that were new, and never used...

Although the dark areas of the city do offer some exciting potential, maybe for a night-vision motorcross racing league that has a sort of post-apocalyptic flair to it. G4 or Spike networks would probably pick it up.

[SteveS]

Grampster, I've heard this, but went to read the bill and just couldn't find that in it anywhere.  RaspberrySurprise had the same experiene--actually it was his comments that prompted me to look up the text. There's definitely some politicking going on.  Whole thing just seems kinda' fishy.  Of course, I may have been reading the wrong version, or someone missed a cross-ref when they posted it.  I dunno what's going on there. 

I sure hope that that bs is getting gone, but I'll reserve my dancing in the streets for the day when they eliminate the language prohibiting any person with a diagnosed mental illness from obtaining a CPL.  It's not only ludicrous and arguable unconstitutional, but it demonstrates vast ignorance on the part pf the drafters about the nature of mental illness.

The language regarding mental illness is poorly written, but a person that has suffered from a mental illness in the past isn't necessarily prohibited.