Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious

[slingshot]

The meeting yesterday between the committee and Holder was to put it mildy... contemptuous.  He might has well told the committee to go get xxx... excuse me, climb a tree.

Executive Privilige was granted over the Justice Department providing the requested documents.  That would suggest the President is involved.  This only makes me more suspicious and I think this whole deal goes to the very top.  The black helicopter folks have said Fast & Furious program was modified modified during the Obama Administration to gain public support for more civilian gun control that extends over the entire US.  This latest action certainly gives some circumstancial support for this belief.  

Remember Nixson?

This whole thing is a slap in the face to our Congress.  Read CONTEMPT!  It is consistant with Obama's approach to governing since he took office.  Many Democrats say it's a "witch hunt".  Well.... this latest action certainly pushes that belief.  Where there is smoke there is fire.

[Ben]

Well, I guess that's the White House confirming this wasn't a few wildcard middle manager ATF guys in BFE Arizona.

As I understand it, Executive Privilege can only be used if the President's office is in some way involved?

[Jamie B]

I seem to remember that Richard Nixon used executive privilege as a stonewalling technique as the Senate Watergate Committee investigation deepened. He claimed executive privilege to prevent aides from testifying and to withhold tapes he made of his White House conversations.

George Bush claimed executive privilege to avoid having his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, testify before the 9/11 Commission, citing separation of the executive and legislative branches of government. After public and political pressure, Bush finally relented.

Obama is not the first to use executive privilege.

[AmbulanceDriver]

This oughta get real interesting....  

[RoadKingLarry]

I seem to remember that Richard Nixon used executive privilege as a stonewalling technique as the Senate Watergate Committee investigation deepened. He claimed executive privilege to prevent aides from testifying and to withhold tapes he made of his White House conversations.

George Bush claimed executive privilege to avoid having his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, testify before the 9/11 Commission, citing separation of the executive and legislative branches of government. After public and political pressure, Bush finally relented.

Obama is not the first to use executive privilege.

GW used it 6 times, Clinton 14, HW Bush 1 and Reagan 3 times (source Fox news).
Obama also blasted GW over the use of EP calling for transparency and openness.

[makattak]

I seem to remember that Richard Nixon used executive privilege as a stonewalling technique as the Senate Watergate Committee investigation deepened. He claimed executive privilege to prevent aides from testifying and to withhold tapes he made of his White House conversations.

George Bush claimed executive privilege to avoid having his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, testify before the 9/11 Commission, citing separation of the executive and legislative branches of government. After public and political pressure, Bush finally relented.

Obama is not the first to use executive privilege.

And your point would be...?

He's not the first to use executive privilege.

However, the most salient point in this is that Executive Privilege is only applicable if the EXECUTIVE is involved.

Appointees confirmed by Congress are not covered under Executive Privilege. (E.G. the AG)

The story has been that Obama had no clue about F&F. Asserting Executive Privilege means that he (or his close advisors) were involved.

[Scout26]

Were this a Republican administration, the press would be handing out pitchforks and torches on the White House lawn.

[TommyGunn]

I seem to remember that Richard Nixon used executive privilege as a stonewalling technique as the Senate Watergate Committee investigation deepened. He claimed executive privilege to prevent aides from testifying and to withhold tapes he made of his White House conversations.

George Bush claimed executive privilege to avoid having his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, testify before the 9/11 Commission, citing separation of the executive and legislative branches of government. After public and political pressure, Bush finally relented.

Obama is not the first to use executive privilege.

It didn't work for Tricky Dicky -- he was forced to turn over the tapes and all hell broke loose.
And it ought not work for Obama, either.

How can the idiot n chief invoke executive privilege for documents he has stated have no white house involvement?  Yes, this is bigger than Iran-Contra. Makes Nixon look like a baby. We have a Tyrant wannabe running this county, with an AG that is more racist than any KKK grand Poobah

GOOD, POINTED and SUCCINCT question!
He CAN'T claim EP.  It didn't work for Nixon and this claim is far more specious.

[RoadKingLarry]

Nothing but racist, election year political grandstanding by the republicans. Nothing to see here, move along before we have to have DHS declare all of you terrorists.

[brimic]

This is pretty transparent. Obama is going to cover for Holder on F&F because he's going to need cover from Holder over a bigger issue with the leaked national security information about Iran. They choose to hang together rather than hang seperately.

[Perd Hapley]

IANAL, but Fox is reporting that Executive Privilege attaches only if the President was directly involved.  Best case, the DOJ doesn't understand Executive Privilege.  Worst case, Holder perjured himself before Congress and the President lied through his teeth to the American public.  I vote for the latter.

Then our slogan will be, "OBAMA LIED; PEOPLE DIED!"   

Wait. That's kind of sad. 

[zxcvbob]

It didn't work for Tricky Dicky -- he was forced to turn over the tapes and all hell broke loose.
And it ought not work for Obama, either.

Nixon didn't have John "Crybaby" Boehner looking out for him; making sure the investigation never gets out of committee.

[RevDisk]

"Wide Receiver" was the Bush era program. Approximately 650 guns were intentionally leaked to Mexico. That number was widely eclipsed by Fast and Furious, Obama era, which was thousands.

Honestly, I suspect neither the Bush or Obama administration directly knew that much about it at a cabinet level. This is not phrased thus in any official releases, but I highly suspect it was an attempt by BATFE upper middle brass to restore their image. While yes, BATFE abuses have continued since Waco and Ruby Ridge PR diseasters. 2A activists have successfully hobbled BATFE brass from "big abuses", like another Waco or Ruby Ridge. Only time 2A activists and slabs of cash are trumped are by big PR crisis involving firearms such as Columbine.

BATFE for many years has been claiming that the Mexican drug cartels are armed by American firearms. This is categorically deceptive. It has some truth, if you claim Mexican military weapons purchased from the US which are a large bulk of the numbers. They tried to make their claims true, by pressuring firearms dealers to make illegal sales. Considering that the BATFE has sole and extreme authority over Federal Firearm Licenses necessary to sell firearms commercially... The choice became "Break the law or lose your license".

The problem is not the Obama administration, per se. The problem is the Obama administration is protecting the BATFE instead of throwing the agency to the wolves, which must occur. The BATFE must be made an independent agency, not under DHS, DOJ or any other department so they have no superiors to cover for them. To send a message, the BATFE middle and upper ranks must be decimated, extreme oversight must be established, agency authority must be sharply reduced and BATFE personnel violating US laws must be tried in court. . Not for the numerous laws broken, the thousands of people killed or the threat to national security. So they do not do this again. Or something even worse.

Wide Receiver and other operations were illegal, violated the national sovereignty of Mexico, et al. But it was dwarfed by Fast and Furious. Wide Receiver used informants. Fast and Furious used government coercion and threats. Wide Receiver killed dozens. Fast and Furious killed thousands.

It. does. not. matter. Either operation justifies gutting the BATFE's authority like a trout so that the NEXT operation is does not follow the path of escalation.

[zxcvbob]

To send a message, the BATFE middle and upper ranks must be decimated, extreme oversight must be established, agency authority must be sharply reduced and BATFE personnel violating US laws must be tried in court. . Not for the numerous laws broken, the thousands of people killed or the threat to national security. So they do not do this again. Or something even worse.

Or pick one to prosecute and seek the death penalty.

[TommyGunn]

Nixon didn't have John "Crybaby" Boehner looking out for him; making sure the investigation never gets out of committee.

You think John "Crybaby" Boehner is somehow a demorat and looking out for Obama?                





 

[RoadKingLarry]

To send a message, the BATFE middle and upper ranks must be decimated

I don't think one in ten is nearly enough, maybe allow one in ten to live.

[Perd Hapley]

As Dana Loesch just put it, the President has "assumed ownership" of the debacle.

Wisconsin; now this. Unless the Court is very kind to the healthcare bill in their upcoming decision, June will be a disastrous month for Prof. Obama.

[zxcvbob]

You think John "Crybaby" Boehner is somehow a demorat and looking out for Obama?

He's worse than that.  I think he's a weak ineffectual Republican, and he's afraid someone will call him a "racist" if he goes after Obama. 

[slingshot]

I am also concerned about Boehner's efforts following this vote by the committee.  I have a feeling that Boehner would just like to let it blow over until after the election.  But if these people broke the law, I seek more than contempt charges.  I suspect that this goes all the way to the White House which is about the only way that Executive Privilege applies and it confirms many suspicions.

Holder protects his president.  The President protects Holder.  Will have to wait and see how this goes forward.  But I am not holding my breath.  Unless new information comes out (and it might), it will all blow away after the election.  It does little to instill confidence in my government.

[Jamie B]

I am also concerned about Boehner's efforts following this vote by the committee.  I have a feeling that Boehner would just like to let it blow over until after the election.  But if these people broke the law, I seek more than contempt charges.  I suspect that this goes all the way to the White House which is about the only way that Executive Privilege applies and it confirms many suspicions.

Holder protects his president.  The President protects Holder.  Will have to wait and see how this goes forward.  But I am not holding my breath.  Unless new information comes out (and it might), it will all blow away after the election.  It does little to instill confidence in my government.

What irritates me even more is that these committee votes take place along party lines.
Neither party owns right or wrong - they blindly follow their own party's lead.
If the USAG is breaking the law, it is not a party issue, but a simple legal issue.
The BATFE needs to be thrown to the wolves, and devoured.

[AJ Dual]

IANAL, but Fox is reporting that Executive Privilege attaches only if the President was directly involved.  Best case, the DOJ doesn't understand Executive Privilege.  Worst case, Holder perjured himself before Congress and the President lied through his teeth to the American public.  I vote for the latter.

I think it's all of the above. And our "constitutional law professor" POTUS, or the folks advising him, doesn't exactly understand Executive Privilege either. Either that, or they do know, but they're so desperate to stop this that they're willing to implicate Obama through association as long as nothing can be proven.

Kobiashi Maru Mr. President.

[MechAg94]

"Wide Receiver" was the Bush era program. Approximately 650 guns were intentionally leaked to Mexico. That number was widely eclipsed by Fast and Furious, Obama era, which was thousands.

Honestly, I suspect neither the Bush or Obama administration directly knew that much about it at a cabinet level. This is not phrased thus in any official releases, but I highly suspect it was an attempt by BATFE upper middle brass to restore their image. While yes, BATFE abuses have continued since Waco and Ruby Ridge PR diseasters. 2A activists have successfully hobbled BATFE brass from "big abuses", like another Waco or Ruby Ridge. Only time 2A activists and slabs of cash are trumped are by big PR crisis involving firearms such as Columbine.

BATFE for many years has been claiming that the Mexican drug cartels are armed by American firearms. This is categorically deceptive. It has some truth, if you claim Mexican military weapons purchased from the US which are a large bulk of the numbers. They tried to make their claims true, by pressuring firearms dealers to make illegal sales. Considering that the BATFE has sole and extreme authority over Federal Firearm Licenses necessary to sell firearms commercially... The choice became "Break the law or lose your license".

The problem is not the Obama administration, per se. The problem is the Obama administration is protecting the BATFE instead of throwing the agency to the wolves, which must occur. The BATFE must be made an independent agency, not under DHS, DOJ or any other department so they have no superiors to cover for them. To send a message, the BATFE middle and upper ranks must be decimated, extreme oversight must be established, agency authority must be sharply reduced and BATFE personnel violating US laws must be tried in court. . Not for the numerous laws broken, the thousands of people killed or the threat to national security. So they do not do this again. Or something even worse.

Wide Receiver and other operations were illegal, violated the national sovereignty of Mexico, et al. But it was dwarfed by Fast and Furious. Wide Receiver used informants. Fast and Furious used government coercion and threats. Wide Receiver killed dozens. Fast and Furious killed thousands.

It. does. not. matter. Either operation justifies gutting the BATFE's authority like a trout so that the NEXT operation is does not follow the path of escalation.

I thought I had heard the program during the Bush era did not see any guns actually leave the US, that they pulled the plug when they couldn't track the guns.  Is that not the case?  What were the circumstances around that one? 

[makattak]

I thought I had heard the program during the Bush era did not see any guns actually leave the US, that they pulled the plug when they couldn't track the guns.  Is that not the case?  What were the circumstances around that one? 

According to what I have read, the Mexican government was aware and involved in that operation.

[HankB]

You think John "Crybaby" Boehner is somehow a demorat and looking out for Obama?

I knew he wasn't as soon as he implemented his oft-repeated 2010 campaign promise to roll back the Federal budget to 2008 levels . . .

[brimic]

"Wide Receiver" was the Bush era program. Approximately 650 guns were intentionally leaked to Mexico. That number was widely eclipsed by Fast and Furious, Obama era, which was thousands.

Sorry man, you've been lied to about that one.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/holder-retracts-claim-bush-team-knew-about-fast-and-furious/article/2500157