Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!

[Perd Hapley]

They are not wise enough to understand this however and think that if they pass the law people will go along with it. And we won't. In fact more guns will be purchased...

And most of them will have custom lowers, with "Multiautomatic" in the FA position.

[Angel Eyes]

And most of them will have custom lowers, with "Multiautomatic" in the FA position.

... and 30-magazine clips that empty in half a second.

[just Warren]

Are those the magazines that are consumed with use?

[Perd Hapley]

Are those the magazines that are consumed with use?

The very same.

[MechAg94]

Please make gun banning and confiscation a major plank of the Democrat Presidential run.  That would motivate more voters to vote Republican than any other issue.  Even Romney or Jeb could win. 

[Perd Hapley]

Even Romney or Jeb could win. 

Not that we'd want them to.

[MechAg94]

Not that we'd want them to.

I guess I took that as a given, but I shouldn't.

I caught a few minutes of a news discussion show on Fox this morning.  They talked about gun control.  The designated liberal was making the usual emotional pleas, but even Brit Hume noted that Americans were voting on the issue by buying more guns.  He mentioned the record gun sales on Black Friday before the attack in Cali.

I think gun control is more of a losing issue now than in 1994.  it sells well to leftist Dems and commies which is why the Dem candidates are talking it up trying to win their primaries.  It won't win in the general election.  It will be interesting to see if the Dem nominee keeps talking about it after the primaries are decided.

[KD5NRH]

Assualt weapon and high powered precision long range sniper rifle. Noone needs those! Ban them for teh childrens!

Same extra deadly 50 caliber ammo.

(Yes, that's the CMMG muzzleloading upper.  Check out the mag.)

[Regolith]

Check out the mag.

What's with the empty cartridges?

Edit: Looked it up. Apparently they hold a 209 primer...seems like it would result in suboptimal ignition of the powder.

[Ben]

Well, the mangling and misuse of firearms related terms is already starting:

Additionally, investigators believe both Farook & Malik were "dry-firing" in the back yard of another Southern California home in the days leading up to the attack, according to law enforcement sources.  Dry-firing, as explained by a source, is pulling a gun's trigger with no bullets in the weapon's chamber.

"The intent is to train the mind to kill,” the source told Fox late Sunday.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/12/07/dry-run-san-bernardino-shooter-practiced-at-gun-range-days-before-attack/?intcmp=hpbt3

[Perd Hapley]

"Journalism," as explained by a source, is writing articles about stuff from an ivory tower, with no practical experience in anything.

"The intent," the source said, "is to train the mind to sound clever at the next cocktail party."

[tokugawa]

For some odd reason, the left thinks if this goes wet it will be cops and military against them bitter clingers.
 They have not even figured out the contestants yet. Like they say, if you are in a poker game, and you can't figure out who the sucker is....

[roo_ster]

For some odd reason, the left thinks if this goes wet it will be cops and military against them bitter clingers.
 They have not even figured out the contestants yet. Like they say, if you are in a poker game, and you can't figure out who the sucker is....

Maybe not not mid-term, but short-term and long-term it will be so.

1. Short-term cops and .mil will do what they are told the first few times.
2. In the mid-term, some will balk after they figure out what is going on.
3. Those that balk will be replaced with more morally flexible sorts willing to to the bidding of their paymasters.
4. Long-term, expect the LEO and .mil to be just fine with whatever their employer wants.  And don't expect kid-glove ROEs like what was the norm in A-stan and Iraq towards the end.

We must keep in mind that authoritarians have little trouble finding folk to do their dirty work as long as:
1. They pay well and that pay is not interrupted.
2. The authoritarians are perceived to be in control/on top.
3. It is not too risky.

[MechAg94]

Maybe not not mid-term, but short-term and long-term it will be so.

1. Short-term cops and .mil will do what they are told the first few times.
2. In the mid-term, some will balk after they figure out what is going on.
3. Those that balk will be replaced with more morally flexible sorts willing to to the bidding of their paymasters.
4. Long-term, expect the LEO and .mil to be just fine with whatever their employer wants.  And don't expect kid-glove ROEs like what was the norm in A-stan and Iraq towards the end.

We must keep in mind that authoritarians have little trouble finding folk to do their dirty work as long as:
1. They pay well and that pay is not interrupted.
2. The authoritarians are perceived to be in control/on top.
3. It is not too risky.

The pay could be an issue.

[roo_ster]

The pay could be an issue.

If several million elderly on social security have to tighten their belts to pay for the gunstapo, then I suspect they'll be expected to tighten their belts.

The former USSR managed to pay army, kgb, gru, etc. while not having a real economy.  And N Korea does the same today.

Oh, and if my comment is a splash of cold water, the following is a firehose:

Jewish Ghetto Police or Jewish Police Service (German: Jüdische Ghetto-Polizei or Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst), also referred to by Jews as the Jewish Police, were auxiliary police units organized within the Jewish ghettos of German-occupied Eastern Europe by local Judenrat councils under the ultimate authority of the Nazi occupiers...

They were used by the Germans primarily for securing the deportation of other Jews to the concentration camps...

The Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst were recruited from two separate groups, who could be relied upon to follow German orders. The first were Jewish lawyers, disbarred by the Nazi occupiers, largely recruited by deputy commander Jakub Lejkin, himself later killed by the Jewish Resistance. The second, larger and more criminally active group, were recruited from among pre-War Jewish organised crime groups. [1] The first commander of the Warsaw ghetto was Józef Szeryński, a Jewish lieutenant-colonel in the pre-War Polish Police.

... there was a secret department, Section 13, known as the "Jewish Gestapo". It specialised in tracking down Jewish people outside the Ghetto walls, as well as their Polish helpers, and often profited by extorting them.

It looks like the Jewish Ghetto Police got irregular pay and largely subsisted on bribes extracted from other Jews to not get put on the train to an extermination camp ( http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Ghettos/Ghetto_Police ).

================================================

I do not counsel despair, but I think a clear understanding of what particular scenarios entail is important.

[brimic]

3. It is not too risky.

Hehe. 

[T.O.M.]

Here's the thing that makes banning and confiscation all the more entertaining...

First thing they need to do is get authority to go into homes/buildings to looks for guns.  Can't get a search warrant for every home that could have a gun, as there isn't probable cause for every structure in the US.  So, you suspend the 4th Amendment and allow LEOs to search every home.

Except there aren't enough LEOs to do the searches in a timely fashion.  I mean, where I live, the county has approximately 200,000 people spread out across 700 square miles.  At the same time, there may be 200 LEOs for the whole county.  So, LEOs will need more bodies.  Suspend Posse Comitatus and allow the military to join in the searching.

Now, once you put LEOs (real or deputized soldiers) legally in the home to search for weapons, it's not a simple task.  You can hide a firearm or it's parts just about anywhere in a home.  So, they'll need to look in every closet, every drawer, and everything in the house gets dumped on the floor and picked through.  Suddenly, there are no more secrets in your home.  That little baggie of grass for a quiet Saturday night with the wife?  Confiscated, and you'll get charged.  Make that cocaine, and you're a felon.  Financial records?  Probably look through those.  Since ghost guns are an issue, they'll need to search your computer.  Again, there's no 4th Amendment issues, so they'll force it open, or take the drive with them.  Encrypted?  Maybe they better suspend the 5th Amendment as well, and force everyone to open their drives for inspection.

This just scratches the surface.  There are issues with people being able to move materials from and area about to be searched to one which has already been searched, the burden on the court system of having all of these people charged for what is found in their home (firearm related or otherwise), the issue of seizing property without compensation.  Bottom line is that without violent opposition, merely non-violent, non-cooperation on the part of some people, it is already a Constitutional nightmare, and a logistical quagmire.

Want to watch a liberal's head spin?  Walk them through the Constitutional problems with banning and confiscation.  In my experience, they'll often concur with suspending 4A for the search, right up to the point when I talk about their home being searched, the scope of the search, the damage to their property, and the fact that they will likely be charged for anything illegal found in their home (like the little baggie of grass in the nightstand).  Suddenly, they see the problem...

[MechAg94]

If several million elderly on social security have to tighten their belts to pay for the gunstapo, then I suspect they'll be expected to tighten their belts.

The former USSR managed to pay army, kgb, gru, etc. while not having a real economy.  And N Korea does the same today.

Oh, and if my comment is a splash of cold water, the following is a firehose:
It looks like the Jewish Ghetto Police got irregular pay and largely subsisted on bribes extracted from other Jews to not get put on the train to an extermination camp ( http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Ghettos/Ghetto_Police ).
================================================
I do not counsel despair, but I think a clear understanding of what particular scenarios entail is important.

Except that city, county, and state LEO's don't work for the federal govt and really don't report to them.  And a lot of local LEO's aren't really paid that well and have to hang around once the Feds leave.  I don't think it is useful to assume all the LEO's suddenly become gastapo simply because some wannbe dictator says so.

[MechAg94]

Chris, I think we would also see a lot of non-compliance with local LEO's such as pencil whipping the searches. 

I realize that some areas like Boston where the cops are already gestapo, this stuff might just happen.  I don't think that is the case everywhere.  I really struggle to come up with a scenario where LEO's across the entire country would fall in line with this stuff.  What would have to happen? 

[roo_ster]

Except that city, county, and state LEO's don't work for the federal govt and really don't report to them.  And a lot of local LEO's aren't really paid that well and have to hang around once the Feds leave.  I don't think it is useful to assume all the LEO's suddenly become gastapo simply because some wannbe dictator says so.

Good thing that was not the argument I made.

[seeker_two]

Except that city, county, and state LEO's don't work for the federal govt and really don't report to them.  And a lot of local LEO's aren't really paid that well and have to hang around once the Feds leave.  I don't think it is useful to assume all the LEO's suddenly become gastapo simply because some wannbe dictator says so.

Plus, the ones that do "go Gestapo" will probably suffer a career-ending injury early on.....hard to be a tyrant when people know where you live.

[AJ Dual]

I realize that some areas like Boston where the cops are already gestapo, this stuff might just happen.  I don't think that is the case everywhere.  I really struggle to come up with a scenario where LEO's across the entire country would fall in line with this stuff.  What would have to happen?  

Even in Gestapo-blue cities, what happens when one known instance of "shots fired" is going on?  Yeah, that, every available unit comes running, contain the scene, scene commander, SWAT etc.

Has it EVER happened in living memory where someone who was PO'ed at the police walked up to the police milling around outside the perimeter just manning a squad car and roadblock and unloaded? I'm not talking about a few pops from a Hi-Point (well, even then!) but a string of aimed fire from a rifle with an optic?

There's your "Buckle Up Baby Jesus" moment. It will be bedlam.   Just two or three people doing that in a city outside the perimeter of the stand-off/siege... ZOMGWTFBBQ111!!!/SHTF/ZPOC. (Insert the pansy future cops from Demolition Man movie  "We aren't trained to handle this kind of violence!")

It would take awhile before the real bloodthirsty shoot-first, fast, and often, don't ask for compliance ROE gets going.   National Guard? Not knowing how many would be on "our side"? Standing around (at first) with empty mags?

The pro-RKBA who crow about the HUGE SCALE of the problem, and logistical impossibility of confiscation, should some political miracle for the anti-RKBA side make it possible, starts becoming clear, it's not bragging, it's just a fact. Let's not even get into the possibility that the urban underclass might think this is a good time to riot and loot with the police so busy...

SS-Nazis with ZERO compunction about "Civil American Society" or any kind of constitutional rights, or decent behavior were held off how long by roughly 7-8 firearms in the Warsaw Ghetto?

And in small towns, red counties? Halfhearted at best. The populace knows who their spouses and children are and where they live if they do betray their citizens, and things got froggy. So even if the morality of the thing doesn't prevent it, the potential for reprisals will.

Why the lefty disconnect? Why do they think this is even possible without igniting CWII and the Matt Bracken Murder-Cube and big-fish-swallow-little-fish rings of guerilla warfare and ethnic cleansing?

http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2010/07/bracken-cw2-cube-mapping-meta-terrain.html

It's a mix of things. People in the big-city MSM Lefty coastal bubble haven't really thought it through. They also don't realize that barring minor harassment by EO from the White House, national gun control is a dead-letter, the DNC knows it, and this "New resurgence in the gun debate! The tide might be turning!"-feeling that the chatterbox class is thinking about, they don't understand is just a pro-forma display by the Left to keep from losing an even more embarrassing amount of ground in 2016, more Senate Seats, House Seats, and state-level races etc. by pandering to their 30% hard-left core base.

If the squishy middle, or moderates were even "in play" for 2016, you'd hear crickets on gun control, save maybe one day editorial blips from the usual MSM suspects after an incident. And watch for the gun issue to die off closer to November 2016 as the Democrats try to scrape up whatever middle/moderates/undecideds/social conservative blue collar union votes they can.

Want to watch a liberal's head spin?  Walk them through the Constitutional problems with banning and confiscation.  In my experience, they'll often concur with suspending 4A for the search, right up to the point when I talk about their home being searched, the scope of the search, the damage to their property, and the fact that they will likely be charged for anything illegal found in their home (like the little baggie of grass in the nightstand).  Suddenly, they see the problem...

And if the light doesn't go on, and they don't see the problem. Or they triumphantly shout that "If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide!"...

That's the guy you go for if the lights go out and there's fire on the horizon.

As Brimic knows, Wisconsin also has the public database of the contentious gubernatorial recall petition. It would make a damn handy phone-book for a Pyrrhic victory/payback SHTF with no winners, but some losers bigger than others...

[dogmush]

Maybe not not mid-term, but short-term and long-term it will be so.

1. Short-term cops and .mil will do what they are told the first few times.
2. In the mid-term, some will balk after they figure out what is going on.
3. Those that balk will be replaced with more morally flexible sorts willing to to the bidding of their paymasters.
4. Long-term, expect the LEO and .mil to be just fine with whatever their employer wants.  And don't expect kid-glove ROEs like what was the norm in A-stan and Iraq towards the end.

We must keep in mind that authoritarians have little trouble finding folk to do their dirty work as long as:
1. They pay well and that pay is not interrupted.
2. The authoritarians are perceived to be in control/on top.
3. It is not too risky.

This post is (IMO) Pretty much entirely wrong.
1. Cops might, as long as the first targets picked are the "right low lifes".  The Military won't.  Or not in big enough numbers to make a difference.  In my dealings with the Army, both Active and Reserve, conservatively, 85% or so say that the order to search houses domestically (for anything really) is the "go off the reservation" threshold.  The lessons of Katrina were not lost on us.  Again, careful target picking early on might help the numbers but not by much.
2. Balk is not the reaction that get's thrown around discussions among Military officers. More like "We need to actively intervene and stop LE from doing this."
3. and 4. Many will take off, and/or get replaced.  Then you will have a new LEO/Military force that is untrained, with no experience, and none of the Esprit de Corps and history that makes the US military strong, facing an insurgent US military.
4b. I think it will.  The folks that forced those ROE are on the other side, and will even more desperatly need to try and assure the public that everything is OK.  ROE (on their side) will be stupid. 

Second paragraph:
1. They can always print that money, but it might be hard to spend and worth less.
2 and 3 will end quickly.

The flip side is that the current .mil folks that counter this know how to run an insurgency, know how to (and how not to) fight one, and will be both pissed off, and not really expecting to survive.  I think you would see the insurgents pretty quickly doing things like: Organized ambushes against LEO, Targeted assassinations of prominent figures, Personal attacks against troops doing the search/oppressing. (Things like they go to work in the morning to take some guns, and their house is burned down). 

Bottom line, it would be much uglier, much faster than I think anyone but the folks with guns now realize.  Millions would probably die. Whatever emerged from the fire would not be the same country we have today.

[mtnbkr]

I don't think we're at risk for any meaningful gun control.

BUT...

if it happened, everyone's little Bracken-fantasy would not be how it went down.  They're not going to go door-to-door taking guns.  They will simply become illegal and you'll be given a window to turn them in.  After that, you get caught with one and it's Fed prison time.  So you kept yours and hid it in your attic?  What for?  You didn't put it to use and you can't practice with it now.  In 50 years your grandkids will find it and post up on TFL asking what to do with Grandpa's old AR from back when they were illegal. It'll be like an unregistered full-auto rifle today.  No way to make it legal, no way to use it legally.  It'll become an albatross around your neck.  Confiscation by attrition.

Chris

[Marnoot]

What mtnbkr said. They're not dumb enough to do a nationwide house-to-house forced confiscation.

Possession of a firearm will merely become yet another thing they can nail you for at any time, another step towards making everyone in the country guilty of a felony for leverage purposes.