Author Topic: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!  (Read 20324 times)

tokugawa

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2015, 05:48:03 PM »
I don't think we're at risk for any meaningful gun control.

BUT...

if it happened, everyone's little Bracken-fantasy would not be how it went down.  They're not going to go door-to-door taking guns.  They will simply become illegal and you'll be given a window to turn them in.  After that, you get caught with one and it's Fed prison time.  So you kept yours and hid it in your attic?  What for?  You didn't put it to use and you can't practice with it now.  In 50 years your grandkids will find it and post up on TFL asking what to do with Grandpa's old AR from back when they were illegal. It'll be like an unregistered full-auto rifle today.  No way to make it legal, no way to use it legally.  It'll become an albatross around your neck.  Confiscation by attrition.

Chris

  In 50 years the grandchildren will be in a gulag having rats chew their intestines. Gun confiscation is the first step, not the last.  You want to know where they will be? "Drawings from the Gulag", image search.

TommyGunn

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2015, 05:48:55 PM »
What mtnbkr said. They're not dumb enough to do a nationwide house-to-house forced confiscation.

Possession of a firearm will merely become yet another thing they can nail you for at any time, another step towards making everyone in the country guilty of a felony for leverage purposes.

They were dumb enough to do Obamacare........or perhaps that was just evil. >:D
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Ben

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2015, 05:56:03 PM »
What mtnbkr said. They're not dumb enough to do a nationwide house-to-house forced confiscation.

Possession of a firearm will merely become yet another thing they can nail you for at any time, another step towards making everyone in the country guilty of a felony for leverage purposes.

Unfortunately, a likely scenario.

You can ignore the "turn them in" order for the most part, unless you live in a state like CA where they are tracked, then you might have someone knocking on your door as is what happened here with certain AKs in the past, and would certainly happen with registered ARs if this were to happen now.

For the freer states, the gov won't have your guns, but now what? You can't use them for fun. If you defend yourself with one in a home invasion for instance, you'll be alive but going to jail. About the only thing you'll be able to use the guns for is full out insurrection, which is kind of a one shot deal. Might turn out good, might turn out bad.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2015, 05:59:06 PM »
Chris, I think we would also see a lot of non-compliance with local LEO's such as pencil whipping the searches. 

I realize that some areas like Boston where the cops are already gestapo, this stuff might just happen.  I don't think that is the case everywhere.  I really struggle to come up with a scenario where LEO's across the entire country would fall in line with this stuff.  What would have to happen? 

Oh, I know a lot of LEOs and .mil types won't follow orders and go on a house-by-house search.  That would make it all the more impossible for any confiscation plan.
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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2015, 06:03:46 PM »
Oh, I know a lot of LEOs and .mil types won't follow orders and go on a house-by-house search.  That would make it all the more impossible for any confiscation plan.

I'm glad you have that faith. Military yes, but that 2A friendly cop buddy will come and get your guns. The "just following orders" runs deep.
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roo_ster

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2015, 06:08:27 PM »
This post is (IMO) Pretty much entirely wrong.
1. Cops might, as long as the first targets picked are the "right low lifes".  The Military won't.  Or not in big enough numbers to make a difference.  In my dealings with the Army, both Active and Reserve, conservatively, 85% or so say that the order to search houses domestically (for anything really) is the "go off the reservation" threshold.  The lessons of Katrina were not lost on us.  Again, careful target picking early on might help the numbers but not by much.
2. Balk is not the reaction that get's thrown around discussions among Military officers. More like "We need to actively intervene and stop LE from doing this."
3. and 4. Many will take off, and/or get replaced.  Then you will have a new LEO/Military force that is untrained, with no experience, and none of the Esprit de Corps and history that makes the US military strong, facing an insurgent US military.
4b. I think it will.  The folks that forced those ROE are on the other side, and will even more desperatly need to try and assure the public that everything is OK.  ROE (on their side) will be stupid. 

Second paragraph:
1. They can always print that money, but it might be hard to spend and worth less.
2 and 3 will end quickly.

The flip side is that the current .mil folks that counter this know how to run an insurgency, know how to (and how not to) fight one, and will be both pissed off, and not really expecting to survive.  I think you would see the insurgents pretty quickly doing things like: Organized ambushes against LEO, Targeted assassinations of prominent figures, Personal attacks against troops doing the search/oppressing. (Things like they go to work in the morning to take some guns, and their house is burned down). 

Bottom line, it would be much uglier, much faster than I think anyone but the folks with guns now realize.  Millions would probably die. Whatever emerged from the fire would not be the same country we have today.

I sure hope you're right.

I have my doubts.

A. When I was in, I had a poor opinion of the military's brass.  I think the military's brass has degenerated since then.  

B. Waco.  Tell the .mil that the "bad guys" shot up some LEOs serving a legal warrant, they are diddling kiddies, and are millenial religious fanatics, and you can get them to break out the APCs against folks who never made a hostile move toward anyone, save the day they were attacked.  And then burn them alive.  Military types won't have a choice: obey or face UCMJ.  LEO types will have a choice: obey or lose your job, pension, and the means to support your family.

C. Any active disobedience, monkey-wrenching, or outright attacks vs unconstitutional orders and those doing the ordering by junior officers would require commo.  Good luck pulling off a junior officer-led Valkyrie-ish operation when the NSA & Co are up your fourth point of contact with a boom mic.  And to attack, say, FBI agents and locals doing the heavy lifting?  Not likely that an infantry captain will sign off drawing weapons from the arms room and the training ammo to run down to the local cop shop or federal building and do some door kicking.

D. How much esprit de corps do you need to slaughter or intimidate most civilians?  Have you seen the slobs that call themselves SWAT in many places in this country?  I recall a former Marine was shot up by some over-eager SWATties, but what I recall the most about it was the unprofessional way in which they did their job.  Fit not to take down a dangerous man, but only against non-resisting or poorly prepared drug dealers.





 
I don't think we're at risk for any meaningful gun control.

BUT...

if it happened, everyone's little Bracken-fantasy would not be how it went down.  They're not going to go door-to-door taking guns.  They will simply become illegal and you'll be given a window to turn them in.  After that, you get caught with one and it's Fed prison time.  So you kept yours and hid it in your attic?  What for?  You didn't put it to use and you can't practice with it now.  In 50 years your grandkids will find it and post up on TFL asking what to do with Grandpa's old AR from back when they were illegal. It'll be like an unregistered full-auto rifle today.  No way to make it legal, no way to use it legally.  It'll become an albatross around your neck.  Confiscation by attrition.

Chris

I can count the number of riots/uprisings due to Somdude being prosecuted under the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA with no hands.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2015, 06:11:12 PM »
Registration leads to confiscation.
I might not last very long or be very effective but I'll be a real pain in the ass for a minute!
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brimic

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2015, 06:37:27 PM »


D. How much esprit de corps do you need to slaughter or intimidate most civilians?  Have you seen the slobs that call themselves SWAT in many places in this country?  I recall a former Marine was shot up by some over-eager SWATties, but what I recall the most about it was the unprofessional way in which they did their job.  Fit not to take down a dangerous man, but only against non-resisting or poorly prepared drug dealers.



Even the best SWAT are only good if they use surprise or the people getting their door kicked in are unarmed.
There is a lot of propaganda around SWAT that they are an unopposable force, but with a little preparation, you have at least an even chance of wiping out a team of door kickers. Most of that involves early alert, preventing distraction devies crom coming through windows, and creating obstacles in fatal funnels. Better yet, be 150 yards away in a foxhole with your favorite varmint rifle when they come.bring friends.
They might bring the fight to citizens at first, but that dynamic will quickly reverse when bubba figures out that a case of beer, a few friends with rifles nd a pickup truck is all they need for an afternoon of unathorized hunting. Of course there are millions of Vets who have spent time in the jungle, desert, and mountains that will come up with their own unfair tactics.
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just Warren

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2015, 07:11:39 PM »
State and local governments cannot print their own money. Any disruption in the flow of taxes and fees will seriously hurt them.

Not only that they rely on private industry for almost everything they use. So a general boycott by suppliers would cripple them in a few weeks if not sooner.

Imagine no gasoline, tires, spares, office supplies, other consumables, food for the jails, contracted maintenance, being personally barred from shopping in places or eating in restaurants and so forth.

A resistance need not be violent to work. Though creative vandalism would speed up the process.
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birdman

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2015, 09:29:23 PM »

A resistance need not be violent to work. Though creative vandalism would speed up the process.

Hell, brute force barrage-jam the police frequencies...isn't that hard to build a few kW broadband transmitter and a nice torodial pattern antenna if you don't care about frequency stability, linear gain, or legality...or better yet, make a crapload of small battery powered ones that also jam GPS...oh, and I have a -really- clever way to use those :)

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2015, 10:09:19 PM »
Find opposing force's antenna. Charge capacitor(s). Tap coax. Inject high voltage spike. Profit?
I might not last very long or be very effective but I'll be a real pain in the ass for a minute!
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T.O.M.

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2015, 10:33:32 PM »
Guys, the door to door, kick it in SWAT style and grab up the guns is slightly less likely than me finishing the next Boston Marathon.  Too many problems for .gov to overcome, and as soon as they suspended 4A, 5A, and maybe even 1A, it would swing opinions of a lot of libs our way.  Nah, just ban 'em, require eveyone to turn them in for a $50 Starbucks gift card, and incarcerate anyone found in possession after the deadline.  US already leads the world in prison population.   What's a few thousand more?
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Ron

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2015, 10:44:17 PM »
Massive public displays of public disobedience.

The NRA, "conservative" media and gun rights groups could mobilize tens of thousands if our government was stupid enough to outlaw guns or even just EBR's.

I just don't think for a moment that our side would be acquiescent in the face of such a power grab.

It would be a call to action and probably non violent, much to the chagrin of our would be tyrants.


 
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just Warren

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2015, 10:49:44 PM »
Quote
Guys, the door to door, kick it in SWAT style and grab up the guns is slightly less likely than me finishing the next Boston Marathon.  Too many problems for .gov to overcome, and as soon as they suspended 4A, 5A, and maybe even 1A, it would swing opinions of a lot of libs our way.  Nah, just ban 'em, require eveyone to turn them in for a $50 Starbucks gift card, and incarcerate anyone found in possession after the deadline.  US already leads the world in prison population.   What's a few thousand more?

But that changes the calculation for gun owners.

At some point, active resistance including violence has the higher expectation of a positive outcome. That is your chance of dying in conflict is small enough to be preferred to the much bigger chance of going to jail and all that implies for your life.

So fighting back becomes the best choice and we're right back in the muck.

In fact, at some point a preemptive purge might be seen by some as the best strategy. I doubt this occurs to the left at all despite their history of doing it to others.

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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2015, 10:52:12 PM »
I've posted it before but here is my more realistic expectation...

Legislation passed to outlaw various classes of firearms.
Amnesty period set for turning in illegal weapons, possibly a "buy back" included.
After amnesty period anyone found in possession will be prosecuted and locked up with severe minimum sentences.
Large rewards posted for people who rat out those evil gun owners. (You can always count on there being plenty of people to sell their soul for a little federal silver)
Late night SWAT raids on suspected gun owners based on information form "good citizens".
Probably a few convenient "tragic natural gas explosions" thrown in for good measure.
Might be a few isolated and quickly hushed up incidents of rightwing Christian extremist terrorists causing a few problems.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

just Warren

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2015, 11:04:43 PM »
According to these guys http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/ numerous red states have pre-nullified future gun control measures.

Without the state personnel helping them the feds would be in a difficult spot. And if  they are actively resisting then the job becomes impossible and that's before the general citizenry gets involved.

Plus the lack of respect for the law and its enforcers would lead to a general loss of respect for the feds overall and things might just unravel for them to the point where they could not mount any kind of action on any issue.

Lastly, how many conservative or libertarian types work for the feds? Do they have critical positions? Would they be willing to leverage their access to stop the enforcement? That's an interesting question, I think.
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Ben

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2015, 11:42:35 PM »

Without the state personnel helping them the feds would be in a difficult spot. And if  they are actively resisting then the job becomes impossible and that's before the general citizenry gets involved.

That is actually an interesting discussion. Even in CA, many Sheriffs have in the past (and currently) sued the state over various gun laws and/or stated they will not enforce them. If some states choose not to enforce potential Federal gun laws (just like sanctuary cities don't enforce immigration laws), then what?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2015, 12:20:36 AM »
That is actually an interesting discussion. Even in CA, many Sheriffs have in the past (and currently) sued the state over various gun laws and/or stated they will not enforce them. If some states choose not to enforce potential Federal gun laws (just like sanctuary cities don't enforce immigration laws), then what?

Then, like now, the Feds shut off the teats of federal monies and the states eventually comply anyway.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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just Warren

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2015, 12:21:50 AM »
They can only shut it off once. And if it doesn't work then what do they do?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2015, 12:31:11 AM »
Hard to say but I think a lot of  folks here have an over inflated opinion of not only their fellow citizens but also of the true nature of our elected stalwart conservatives.
It will be ugly, people will die, people will go to  prison, but a sweeping federal gun ban will not result in the 2nd civil war. Too many people are more concerned with what the Kardashians are doing or how well their favorite sports franchise is doing than they are with creeping totalitarianism.
The Republic is already dead, and it didn't come with a bang but with a whimper.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2015, 06:41:42 AM »
Oh, I know a lot of LEOs and .mil types won't follow orders and go on a house-by-house search.  That would make it all the more impossible for any confiscation plan.

They didn't seem to have any problem finding cops to do house-to-house confiscations in New Orleans a few years ago ...
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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2015, 08:37:15 AM »
They didn't seem to have any problem finding cops to do house-to-house confiscations in New Orleans a few years ago ...

Exactly. Katrina showed us what LE would do 
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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2015, 08:53:57 AM »
I know a lot of LEOs and .mil types will follow orders, even if that means going door-to-door.  But I know a lot of officers who are strong 2A supporters and advocates.  They will walk away before they follow such an order.  Not all of them.  Not even a majority.  But, having seen "blue flu" happen, I can see an outbreak happening if they are told to go house to house and forcibly take the guns.

Now, back to the OP, I was at a Scout meeting last night.  Heard a lot of men and women talking about buying guns, many of whom I would consider to be libs.  There is a growing fear that the enemy is among us, a realization that "when seconds count, cops are minutes away," and a sense that the enemy is not only going to go after high-profile targets.  As more people become armed, it will become even harder for .gov to take those weapons away.
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brimic

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2015, 09:04:00 AM »
What people need to wake up and remember is that the 2nd Amendment doesn't protect gun ownership- the guns do!
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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mtnbkr

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Re: Buckle Up Baby Jesus, this is going to get bumpy!!!
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2015, 10:45:52 AM »
What people need to wake up and remember is that the 2nd Amendment doesn't protect gun ownership- the guns do!

I can count the number of riots/uprisings due to Somdude being prosecuted under the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA with no hands.
Add to that the recent bans.

Lots of talk, not much action.

Chris