Author Topic: Robert Heinlein, smart guy  (Read 1928 times)

Harold Tuttle

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Robert Heinlein, smart guy
« on: February 12, 2006, 11:17:45 AM »
Starship Troopers, Robert A. Heinlein, 1959

Chapter VIII, pp. 90-96:

I found myself mulling over a discussion in our class in History and Moral Philosophy. Mr. Dubois was talking about the disorders that preceded the breakup of the North American republic, back in the 20th century. According to him, there was a time just before they went down the drain when such crimes as murder were as common as dogfights. The Terror had not been just in North America -- Russia and the British Isles had it, too, as well as other places. But it reached its peak in North America shortly before things went to pieces.

"Law-abiding people," Dubois had told us, "hardly dared go into a public park at night. To do so was to risk attack by wolf packs of children, armed with chains, knives, home-made guns, bludgeons ... to be hurt at least, robbed most certainly, injured for life probably -- or even killed. This went on for years, right up to the war between the Russo-Anglo-American Alliance and the Chinese Hegemony. Murder, drug addiction, larceny, assult, and vandalism were commonplace. Nor were parks the only places -- these things happened also on the streets in daylight, on school grounds, even inside school buildings. But parks were so notoriously unsafe that honest people stayed clear of them after dark."

I had tried to imagine such things happening in our schools, I simply couldn't. Nor in our parks. A park was a place for fun, not for getting hurt. As for getting killed in one -- "Mr. Dubois, didn't they have police? Or courts?"

"They had many more police than we have. And more courts. All overworked."

"I guess I don't get it." If a boy in our city had done anything half that bad ... well, he and his father would have been flogged side by side. But such things just didn't happen.

Mr. Dubois then demanded of me, "Define a 'juvenile delinquent.'"

"Uh, one of those kids -- the ones who used to beat up people."

"Wrong."

"Huh? But the book said -- "

"My apologies. Your textbook does so state. But calling a tail a leg does not make the name fit. 'Juvenile delinquent' is a contradiction in terms, one which gives a clue to their problem and their failure to solve it. Have you ever raised a puppy?"

"Yes, sir."

"Did you housebreak him?"

"Err ... yes, sir. Eventually." It was my slowness in this that caused my mother to rule that dogs must stay out of the house.

"Ah, yes. When your puppy made mistakes, were you angry?"

"What? Why, he didn't know any better; he was just a puppy."

"What did you do?"

"Why, I scolded him and rubbed his nose in it and paddled him."

"Surely he could not understand your words?"

"No, but he could tell I was sore at him!"

"But you just said that you were not angry."

Mr. Dubois had an infuriating way of getting a person mixed up, "No, but I had to make him think I was. He had to learn, didn't he?"

"Conceded. But, having made it clear to him that you disapproved, how could you be so cruel as to spank him as well? You said the poor beastie didn't know that he was doing wrong. Yet you inflicted pain. Justify yourself! Or are you a sadist?"

I didn't then know what a sadist was -- but I know pups. "Mr. Dubois, you have to! You scold him so that he knows he's in trouble, you rub his nose in it so that he will know what trouble you mean, you paddle him so that he darn well won't do it again -- and you have to do it right away! It doesn't do a bit of good to punish him later; you'll just confuse him. Even so, he won't learn from one lesson, so you watch and catch him again and paddle him still harder. Pretty soon he learns. But it's a waste of breath just to scold him." Then I added, "I guess you've never raised pups."

"Many. I'm raising a daschund now -- by your methods. Let's get back to those juvenile criminals. The most vicious averaged somewhat younger than you here in this class ...and they often started their lawless careers much younger. Let us never forget that puppy. These children were often caught; police arrested batches each day. Were they scolded? Yes, often scathingly. Were their noses rubbed in it? Rarely. Newspapers and officials usually kept their names secret -- in many places this was the law for criminals under eighteen. Were they spanked? Indeed not! Many had never been spanked even as small children; there was a widespread belief that spanking, or any punishment involving pain, did a child permanent psychic damage."

(I had reflected that my father must never have heard of that theory.)

"Corporal punishment in schools was forbidden by law," he had gone on. "Flogging was lawful as sentence of court only in one small province, Delaware, and there only for a few crimes and was rarely invoked; it was regarded as 'cruel and unusual punishment.'" Dubois had mused aloud, "I do not understand objections to 'cruel and unusual' punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment -- and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mecahnism? However, that period was loaded with pre-scientific pseudo-psychological nonsense.

"As for 'unusual,' punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose." He then pointed his stump at another boy. "What would happen if a puppy were spanked every hour?"

"Uh ... probably drive him crazy!"

"Probably. It certainly will not teach him anything. How long has it been since the principal of this school last had to switch a pupil?"

"Uh, I'm not sure. About two years. The kid that swiped --"

"Never mind. Long enough. It means that such punishment is so unusual as to be significant, to deter, to instruct. Back to these young criminals -- They probably were not spanked as babies; they certainly were not flogged for their crimes. The usual sentence was: for a first offence, a warning -- a scolding, often without trial. After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested may times and convicted several times before he was punished -- and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment, be given probation -- 'paroled' in the jargon of the times.

"This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness, with no punishment whatever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements. Then suddenly, usually by law on his eighteenth birthday, this so-called 'juvenile delinquent' becomes an adult criminal -- and sometimes wound up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder."

He had singled me out again. "Suppose you merely scolded your puppy, never punished him, let him go on making messes in the house ... and occasionally locked him up in an outbuilding but soon let him back into the house with a warning not to do it again. Then one day you notice that he is now a grown dog and still not housebroken -- whereupon you whip out a gun and shoot him dead. Comment, please?"

"Why ... that's the craziest way to raise a dog I ever heard of!"

"I agree. Or a child. Whose fault would it be?"

"Uh ... why, mine, I guess."

"Again I agree. But I'm not guessing."

"Mr. Dubois," a girl blurted out, "but why? Why didn't they spank little kids when they needed it and use a good dose of the strap on any older ones who deserved it -- the sort of lesson they wouldn't forget! I mean ones who did things really bad. Why not?"

"I don't know," he had answered grimly, "except that the time-tested method of instilling social virtue and respect for law in the minds of the young did not appeal to a pre-scientific pseudo-professional class who called themselves 'social workers' or sometimes 'child psychologists.' It was too simple for them, apparently, since anybody could do it, using only the patience and firmness needed in training a puppy. I have sometimes wondered if they cherished a vested interest in disorder -- but that is unlikely; adults almost always act from conscious 'highest motives' no matter what their behavior."

"But -- good heavens!" the girl answered. "I didn't like being spanked any more than any kid does, but when I needed it, my mama delivered. The only time I ever got a switching in school I got another one when I got home -- and that was years and years ago. I don't ever expect to be hauled up in front of a judge and sentenced to a flogging; you behave yourself and such things don't happen. I don't see anything wrong with our system; it's a lot better than not being able to walk outdoors for fear of your life -- why that's horrible!"

"I agree. Young lady, the tragic wrongness of what those well-meaning people did, contrasted with what they thought they were doing, goes very deep. They had no scientifc theory of morals. They did have a theory of morals and they tried to live by it (I should not have sneered at their motives), but their theory was wrong -- half of it fuzzy-headed wishful thinking, half of it rationalized charlatanry. The more earnest they were, the farther it led them astray. You see, they assumed that Man had a moral instinct."

"Sir? I thought -- But he does! I have."

"No, my dear, you have a cultivated conscience, a most carefully trained one. Man has no moral instinct. He is not born with moral sense. You were not born with it, I was not -- and a puppy has none. We acquire moral sense, when we do, through training, experience, and hard sweat of the mind. These unfortunate juvenile criminals were born with none, even as you and I, and they had no chance to acquire any; their experiences did not permit it. What is 'moral sense'? It is an elaboration of the instinct to survive. The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations. This truth is mathematically demonstrable, everwhere verifiable; it is the single eternal imperative controlling everything we do.

"But the instinct to survive," he had gone on, "can be cultivated into motivations more subtle and much more complex than the blind, brute urge of the individual to stay alive. Young lady, what you miscalled your 'moral instinct' was the instilling in you by your elders of the truth that survival can have stronger imperatives than that of your own personal survival. Survival of your family, for example. Of your children, when you have them. Of your nation, if you struggle that high up the scale. And so on up. A scientifically verifiable theory of morals must be rooted in the individual's instinct to survive -- and nowhere else! -- and must correctly describe the hierarchy of survival, note the motivations at each level, and resolve all conflicts.

"We have such a theory now; we can solve any moral problem, on any level. Self-interest, love of family, duty to country, responsibility toward the human race -- we are even developing an exact ethic for extra-human relations. But all moral problems can be illustrated by one misquotation: 'Greater love hath no man than a mother cat dying to defend her kittens.' Once you understand the problem facing that cat and how she solved it, you will then be ready to examine yourself and learn how high up the moral ladder you are capable of climbing.

"These juvenile criminals hit a low level. Born with only the instinct for survival, the highest morality they achieved was a shaky loyalty to a peer group, a street gang. But the do-gooders attempted to 'appeal to their better natures,' to 'reach them,' to 'spark their moral sense.' Tosh! They had no 'better natures'; experience taught them that what they were doing was the way to survive. The puppy never got his spanking; therefore what he did with pleasure and success must be 'moral.'

"The basis of all morality is duty, a concept with the same relation to group that self-interest has to individual. Nobody preached duty to these kids in a way they could understand -- that is, with a spanking. But the society they were in told them endlessly about their 'rights.'

"The results should have been predictable, since a human being has no natural rights of any nature."

Mr. Dubois had paused. Somebody took the bait. "Sir? How about 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'?"

"Ah, yes, the 'unalienable rights.' Each year someone quotes that magnificent poetry. Life? What 'right' to life has a man who is drowning in the Pacific? The ocean will not hearken his cries. What 'right' to life has a man who must die if he is to save his children? If the chooses to save his own life, does he do so as a matter of 'right'? If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'? As to liberty, the heroes who signed the great document pledged themselves to buy liberty with their lives. Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes. Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is the least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost.

"The third 'right' -- the 'pursuit of happiness'? It is indeed unalienable but it is not a right; it is ismply a universal condition which tyrants cannot take away nor patriots restore. Cast me into a dungeon, burn me at the stake, crown me king of kings, I can 'pursue happiness' as long as my brain lives -- but neither gods nor saints, wise men nor subtle drugs, can insure that I will catch it."

Mr. Dubois then turned to me. "I told you that 'juveline delinquent' is a contriction in terms. 'Delinquent' means 'failing in duty.' But duty is an adult virtue -- indeed a juvenile becomes an adult when, and only when, he acquires a knowledge of duty and embraces it as dearer than the self-love he was born with. There never was, there cannot be, a 'juvenile delinquent.' But for every juvenile criminal there are always one or more adult delinquents -- people of mature years who either do not know their duty, or who, knowing it, fail.

"And that was the soft spot which destroyed what was in many ways an admirable culture. The junior hoodlums who roamed their streets were symptoms of a greater sickness; their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights' ... and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure."
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

Werewolf

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Robert Heinlein, smart guy
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2006, 01:32:43 PM »
Imagine what would happen if a teacher today tried to have that conversation in a classroom?

Wonder how long it would take for him/her to get their walking papers?
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El Tejon

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Robert Heinlein, smart guy
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2006, 02:34:51 PM »
The human animal needs pain.  It is how we were wired.Cheesy
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matis

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Robert Heinlein, smart guy
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2006, 04:58:23 PM »
Heinlein was indeed a smart guy.


So is the Author of the bible: "Spare the rod and spoil the child."


But please don't tell Child Protective Services that I said that.  (Or is that Child Destructive Services?)



matis
Si vis pacem; para bellum.

cordex

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Robert Heinlein, smart guy
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2006, 06:07:52 PM »
Funny, I just got done rereading Starship Troopers for the umpteenth time today.

Brian Williams

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Robert Heinlein, smart guy
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2006, 05:00:01 AM »
Yep quite smart, We need a few more with the understanding of humanity the way he did in more places of power.  A part of that problem is people with that understanding of humanity really do not thrive on public service.



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Lo.Com.Denom

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Robert Heinlein, smart guy
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2006, 11:39:35 AM »
Hmm... I dunno. Believe it or not, that passage actually made me reassess my position.

I mean, every person, child and puppy are different, aren't they? Last year we house-trained two pups quite successfully without laying a finger on them and never once pushing their noses in it. We just put them put them in the garden every time they were about to go, with the command "OUTSIDE!". It took a while (they had the runs for a few weeks after we got them, which meant we didn't always get to them in time), but through sheer Pavlovian response, they got the idea in the end.

My dog in particular is also built like a brick ****house and doesn't even yelp when you accidentally tread on his tail or foot. Spanking him (yeah, I've tried it once or twice) doesn't have any affect whatsoever. He just doesn't get it. The only thing he seems to fear, is when you snap at him and withdraw your affection. The other day I had to do just that -- I snarled then barked, as another dog would (don't laugh!), and the poor boy was absolutely distraught. He honestly looked like he was about to burst into tears. He didn't know what to do with himself and had to crawl onto someone's lap for comfort.

My point is that what works for one won't necessarily work for another. Some pups and kids fear a spanking, others don't. As a kid, corporal punishment always just made me dig my heals in and make me more belligerent. I always feared losing my parent's support and affection far more.

One would think, from Heinlein's theory, that there was no violent crime or errant teenage behaviour before Dr Spock and the 1960s.

Firethorn

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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2006, 12:53:10 PM »
One problem with Heinlein's position is that youth crime, as well as crime in general, is dropping in rate.  It's just that the spread of mass media tends to highlight it.  First you only hear about incidents in your town/neighborhood.  Then you hear about the problems in the city/state/broadcast area.  Then we moved up to the country, now we're to the point that we hear about stuff from the whole world(that meets at least certain development levels).

This created a perceived spike.  The stuff just wasn't getting measured earlier.

Each parental unit must find the most efficient corrective methods for each child.  One size does not fit all.  Often spanking is effective only at the youngest ages.

Moreover, this was a discussion of pure 'stick' methods, punative measures taken when something is done wrong.  I believe that the carrot methods are far more important than the stick, though both are needed.  This is why single or dual income parents often seem to have more trouble than traditional families.  Not enough carrot.

cordex

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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2006, 03:48:43 AM »
Firethorn, Lo.Com.Denom.,
Heinlein is referring to corrective instruction towards a child (or puppy) that holds no respect for the correcting authority.  At that point, alternate methods of punishment such as withholding affection and approval, or incenting good behavior have little or no positive effect.

Once the structure of respect is there, other methods can be effective as well, but without it you can bribe or keep back affection all day long without causing the slightest change in attitude.

Many parents have "learned" that effectively punishing their children is wrong.  Their only acceptable methods of punishment are giving or promising rewards if they improve their behavior in the short run, or sending them to their room where the kid will play with all their new toys they been bribed with and get angrier about the situation, slowly festering in their cushy incarceration.  This refusal to punish teaches the children that:
a) they have nothing to fear from disobeying authorities
b) bad behavior, combined with short-term good behavior is profitable
c) authority is easy to control.

Different methods will work with different kids.  Because of differences in temperment, circumstance and relationships, not every child will need the constant threat of corporal punishment hanging over them, but many adults will ignorantly try to reason and negotiate with their children's undeveloped "moral sense" instead of punishing them, or choose to punish them with utterly ineffectual methods.  If done correctly corporal punishiment can serve as an extremely powerful behavior modification tool, and often is an excellent option.

Often, the root problem is the refusal of parents to take control of their child in the first place.  They're too interested in being "friends" and not interested enough in being parents.  It becomes a situation where the child uses the withholding affection trick on the parents and it works because they have been so intent on being their child's friend that they haven't properly established who the authority is.

Lo.Com.Denom

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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2006, 06:03:34 AM »
Cordex,

I agree with the majority of what you say. However, in
Quote from: cordex
a child (or puppy) that holds no respect for the correcting authority.
I think that the battle might already be lost. If the child or pup has no respect at all, then I can't see that spanking them will cause anything other than resentment in them. I would argue that there has to be a modicum of respect there beforehand if a spanking is to have any effect at all.

Actually, having said that, I guess that we need a definition of "respect" before we go any further down that road. My dictionary has it as: "To feel or show esteem, deference, or honour to" as well as "to refrain from violating" and "to treat with undue discrimination". What's your take on it?

cordex

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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2006, 07:50:09 AM »
I was using respect as "To feel or show esteem, deference, or honour to".
Quote
I think that the battle might already be lost. If the child or pup has no respect at all, then I can't see that spanking them will cause anything other than resentment in them.
That's why I emphasized "If done correctly".
In my opinion, corporal punishment carried out by parents should be done as follows:

1. Do not punish while you are angry.  You must be in control of yourself before you try to control your child.  Punishing while you are angry is a good way to be vengeful instead of punitive - not what you want with your kid.

2. Take the child into a room away from others.  The punishment is a private matter between you and your child.  Swatting them around in public is obnoxious and not helpful.

3. Calmly explain to them that they are going to be spanked for what they did, and explain to them why it was wrong.  It is very important that they understand what they are being punished for and why that behavior is unacceptable.

4. Spanking should cause temporary pain.  If it doesn't hurt enough it won't teach the lesson.  Of course it should not cause any actual injury - if it does you probably broke Rule #1.

5. Don't let them leave the room with a bad attitude.  If you spank them and then let them run off to get angrier, you haven't solved the problem.  If after spanking them they still have a bad attitude, explain to them that they aren't leaving the room until their attitude changes.  Spank them again if you need to.  This is the step most parents tend to skip, and skipping it is also a reason why many people think corporal punishment is ineffective.

6. Before you leave, hug them and tell them that you love them.  Show them that your feelings for them haven't changed.  This is another extremely important step.  You're not angry at the kid, just their bad attitude.  They have to know that.

7. Be consistant.  Make the punishment fit the offense, but try to be objective about it.  Having a pre-set number of swats (for your own reference, not to threaten the kids with) for common offenses can be useful.  Don't laugh it off sometimes and come down hard other times.

8. Don't threaten spankings and not follow through.  If you say you're going to do it, do it.

9. Don't resort to "Just you wait until your father/mother gets home!"  Both parents should present a united front and be willing to mete out punishment as needed.  If one parent can't act as the punisher for fear of violationg Rule #1, it's fine for the other to do it or to wait a short time to take a few breaths and calm down, but don't make a habit of it.

10. Punish the attitude, not the action.  If a kid does something wrong on accident, spanking them may not help and it probably will make them resentful.  Accidents are opportunities for instruction.  Similarly, if they do something wrong in anger, comforting them and trying to be their friend won't fix their attitude.

My take on the issue is that it's not as simple as "corporal punishment is good" or "corporal punishsment is bad".  When properly done, it can be an amazingly effective and useful punishment.  If you screw it up, you can really make a mess of things.  But good parenting ain't easy.

That's my take on punishing kids, and I think it is one of the more valuable things my parents passed on to me.

Lo.Com.Denom

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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2006, 09:34:48 AM »
Sounds like your parents had the right idea, cordex. I have a friend in mind who could no doubt benefit from such sage wisdom on parenting, but I don't think she'd appreciate it, regrettably Sad . Thanks for sharing, anyway.

The reason I brought up "respect", is because some folks seem to differ on their ideas as to what it is. Seems like you and I are on the same page on that, but some seem to confuse it with fear, others refer to it in an all encompassing term, applied to everyone and everything. Topic for another thread, maybe.

I can understand what Heinlein was raging about in that passage, but it did come across as a bit simplistic. More "corporal punishment Good", than any sense of moderation. I've never read "Starship Troopers" (the movie put me off quite a bit and someone once described it as a "satire" which put me off even more), but I think I will now. I'd like to get a sense of the rest of the book, before I comment any further on it.

Art Eatman

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Robert Heinlein, smart guy
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2006, 11:23:35 AM »
About the only commonality between the book and the movie was the title.

Art
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