Nugent Rocks Perry Ball with Confederate Flag Shirt

[mustanger98]

Why did the South leave the Union to protect slavery if slavery was perfectly legal in the Union (it was)?

I'm not saying this is the whole reason for the war, but many in the South were convinced of a Yankee conspiracy to subjugate the South to extremist Yankee notions, abolishing slavery being one of those.  This was only confirmed by the ascendancy of an explicitly anti-slavery party.  That is, the election of Republican Abraham Lincoln.

If you read the Lincoln-Douglas debates when they were running for the office of POTUS, Abraham Lincoln said regarding slavery that he had no inclination to abolish it. He didn't "free the slaves in the states currently in rebellion" with the Emancipation Proclamation until 1863. Slaves in northern states weren't freed until the end of the so-called Reconstruction.

[Balog]

I think this is one of the quotes mustanger is talking about.

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing
about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black
races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or
jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry
with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical
difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever
forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality.
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there
must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other
man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is
to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."

Abraham Lincoln

Source: September 18, 1858 - Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas
at Charleston, Illinois

[HankB]

Now that the KKK has been brought into this discussion, here's a photo from a Klan rally...

Hey, I was just wondering . . . is Robert Byrd in that picture anywhere?

[thread hijack]I often thought that picturing a Klan rally with a voice over saying "Is this Robert Byrd? Or is this him? Or is Robert Byrd over here?" as a superimposed arrow pointed in succession to different Klansmen would have been a great campaign commercial for one of his opponents, especially if it ended with "Call Robert Byrd's office in Washington at 202-xxx-xxxx and ask him if he made it into this picture, so that he can get full and proper credit for his participation."[/thread hijack]

[Bogie]

Guys, you're NOT GETTING IT.

I don't care about history. I don't care about 150 years ago, and who was doing what to whom (or vice versa...).
 
What matters is NOW. And tomorrow.

The plain and simple truth is that the rebel flag is viewed by the vast majority of the population as being the flag of the racist bigots. Sure, you can say over and over again that that isn't the case, but guess what? What you say about it doesn't matter. The stars and bars = backwoods southern racists in the minds of probably over 75% of the population. And that is NOT going to change.
 
One should pick one's fights wisely, and being a flaggot is pretty much guaranteed to ensure that any OTHER message you convey is also viewed in the same light - associated with racism and bigotry.
 
When you have your flaggot sticker next to your NRA sticker, you are polluting my NRA.
 

[Glock Glockler]

Bogie,

I agree, that's why I wrote this, but it's fun to debate the other issue as well

"THAT being said, Nugent is an idiot who is only out for his own glorification even if it comes at the expense of whatever cause he claims to support, heck, those antics were probably the only way that he would have gotten his name in the paper.  Everyone with 1/10th of a brain knows that if you're not a Democrat and you have a "Confederate" flag showing that you make youself a target for bashing.  Nugent belongs in a trailer park, hopefully people will realize that and stop inviting him to political functions"

[Brad Johnson]

Another way of saying "here and now" is "politically correct".  Yes, I recognize that political correctness exists in all its mind-numbingly petty idiocy, but you won't find me actively promoting it.  I tolerate it simply because it is part of our current culture, not because I think it has any positive value to society.

The facts of history are ... the facts of history.  The current twists and turns (including the venom-laden twattle about the Confederate Flag) are a product of hyper-sensitive groups of self-aggrandizing "oh-poor-me" types with nothing better to do than blame everyone else for their problems.  Their main contribution to society is to make sure the rest of us spend our days walking on eggshells lest we bruise their delicate sensibilities.

Quite honestly, I'm tired of the whole damn thing.  Tired of having it shoved in my face 24/7.  Tired of being browbeaten with how bad someone has it when they created the situation for themselves.  Tired of seeing people of any color, creed, or origin who've worked their entire lives towards a jobs or college placement goal only to lose it to people who's only qualification is their color, creed, or national origin.  Tired of hearing people who've never been personally wronged (but have personally benefitted from the situation) constantly point fingers and pitch a fit that people like me are the problem when all I want is to be blissfully colorblind, raceblind, and originblind.  But we can't because the people who want us to be won't let the !@&$%! issue go!!!.

Brad

[Perd Hapley]

Why did the South leave the Union to protect slavery if slavery was perfectly legal in the Union (it was)?

I'm not saying this is the whole reason for the war, but many in the South were convinced of a Yankee conspiracy to subjugate the South to extremist Yankee notions, abolishing slavery being one of those.  This was only confirmed by the ascendancy of an explicitly anti-slavery party.  That is, the election of Republican Abraham Lincoln.

If you read the Lincoln-Douglas debates when they were running for the office of POTUS, Abraham Lincoln said regarding slavery that he had no inclination to abolish it. He didn't "free the slaves in the states currently in rebellion" with the Emancipation Proclamation until 1863. Slaves in northern states weren't freed until the end of the so-called Reconstruction.

What is your point? 

[mustanger98]

That Lincoln did not set out to be the great emancipator he's been portrayed as, but rather used slavery to his advantage during the war in two ways I can think of right off. One way was to deprive Southern slave owners, who only made up 5% of the population, of their "property" as ruled by the pre-war SCOTUS in the Dred Scott case. The other way was to use slavery, or the evil-looking depictions of it, for propaganda purposes in European countries to enrage those people into joining the Union Army just for the boost in troop strength. In this process, Abraham Lincoln proved himself a flip-flopper.

[Art Eatman]

"Abraham Lincoln proved himself a flip-flopper."

Hey, he was a politician, wasn't he?  That's what they DO for a living, flip their floppies.

It worked for Clinton, right?

Art

[CAnnoneer]

 But we can't because the people who want us to be won't let the !@&$%! issue go!!!.

Of course not. Else, their race would no longer be an asset an they will have to be weaned off the subsidy tit. And a bountiful, ever-lactating tit it is.

Just look at all the hoopla Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton generated around the Duke "rape". The American Arafats...

[roo_ster]

Born in Iowa & had ancestors fight in the Civil War on the side of the Union.  Even had one ancestor lose and arm and end up in Andersonville.  My ancestors were responsible for sending a goodly number of rebels to their reward.

That said, I don't care if folks wave the various flags used by the losers.  A lot more non-slave-owners fought & died under them than slave owners.

I also don't give a dead rat's hind end for the mewlings of the hyper-sensitive.

[wmenorr67]

Quite honestly, I'm tired of the whole damn thing.  Tired of having it shoved in my face 24/7.  Tired of being browbeaten with how bad someone has it when they created the situation for themselves.  Tired of seeing people of any color, creed, or origin who've worked their entire lives towards a jobs or college placement goal only to lose it to people who's only qualification is their color, creed, or national origin.  Tired of hearing people who've never been personally wronged (but have personally benefitted from the situation) constantly point fingers and pitch a fit that people like me are the problem when all I want is to be blissfully colorblind, raceblind, and originblind.  But we can't because the people who want us to be won't let the !@&$%! issue go!!!.

Brad

Well said Mr. Johnson.  Well said.

[Sindawe]

I see that Mr. Johnson is in need of some time in reeducatio^H^H^H^H^H^H VACATION camp until he distresses and learns to think correte^H^H^H^H^H can relax a bit.

My feelings that flag, as I posted elsewhere on the 'Net.

It IS a part of OUR history as Americans, and while long vilified the root goals and cause of the Confederacy seeking to succeed from the Union was in line with the ideals of the founding of the this Nation. Slavery was NOT what motivated our Southern brothers, but economic freedom and self determination of the agrarian Southern States, free from oppression and exploitation by the industiral Northern States. Though identified as the banner of a defeated cause, in my view it has as much legitimacy as an American icon as the banner of an earlier struggle for the soul of this nation, the Gadsden Flag.

I 2nd jfruser's views on the hyper-sensitive.

[Art Eatman]

When I was a little kid, around six-ish (1940), my grandparents still lived in town.  About two blocks from the old Confederate Veterans' Home on West Sixth Street in Austin.  My grandfather and I would sometimes walk down that way for his "evening constitutional".

There were still a few vets there.  One who could still get around and was compos mentis had been a young drummer boy with a Confederate unit.  About all I remember of a few comments was that he'd mostly been afraid but determined.  Some things never change...

My great-grandfather Witherspoon was with Hood's brigade, IIRC.  Apparently he stuck his head up at the wrong time and had a Minie ball put a dent in.  A silver plate was used in the repair work, according to my grandmother.  She recalled that he was okay but for the occasional late-night "flashback".  He'd get up in the middle of the night and go search around the house for Yankee intruders.  Again, some things never change...

The Witherspoon clan moved by wagon train from Waxahachie to Playa in the Texas panhandle around 1890, taking some four months to do so.  He ranched there.  One day his horse fell back on him and crushed his chest.  The horse got back home and my ggm spent two days searching for him.  He died not long after from pneumonia.

The Witherspoon "boys" worked as cowhands on the 3-million-acre XIT ranch.

Art

[Perd Hapley]

What is your point? 

That Lincoln did not set out to be the great emancipator he's been portrayed as,

Then perhaps you misunderstood what I was getting at.  I was not saying that Lincoln was a determined abolitionist, nor that there was actually a Yankee conspiracy to subject the South to the rule of barbarous Negros  .  I was only saying that such ideas were common in the South at that time. 

[Hugh Damright]

I reckon that the CSA Flag represents the same form of government which the US Constitution framed ... and I think that is what yankees hate so much.

[Stand_watie]

Yessir.  That thur's one prickly yankee. 

I don't mean to be argumentative, but El Tejon's from Indiana - and as such (geographically speaking anyway) he's not quite a yankee.

Damn near as many hoosiers were "good ol' rebs" or "dirty traitors" (depending upon your viewpoint) as "yankees".

Ted Nugent, though, is a yankee. Outside of New England you don't get much more yankee than detroit area Mitcheegander.

[Perd Hapley]

Oh brother.  He's from north of the Mason Dixon Line and insults the antebellum South every chance he gets.  That's not Yankee?  I'm gonna go to sleep now. 

[Hugh Damright]

I think El Tejon is what we call a "flaming yankee".

[Stand_watie]

Oh brother.  He's from north of the Mason Dixon Line and insults the antebellum South every chance he gets.  That's not Yankee?  I'm gonna go to sleep now. 

The antebellum south? Ha! Listen to what he says about his neighbors.

Maybe it's just a lawyer thing, but sometimes I wonder if he wouldn't be happier in Connecticut or the windy city burbs.

Prolly not. Just funnin ya el T

P.S. I'm a hoosier with a New England yankee dad and a tennessee hillbilly ma, and had ancestors die on both sides. I think I'm pretty

Bill O'Reilly

"fair and balanced".

[Perd Hapley]

The antebellum south? Ha! Listen to what he says about his neighbors.

How could I forget?  I'm gonna go move my pick-up into the yard, but first, my Pappy is from North Missouri (it's like Iowa South) and my Momma is from Swampeast (Southeast) Missouri/Arkansas/Mississippi.

[Stand_watie]

The antebellum south? Ha! Listen to what he says about his neighbors.

How could I forget?  I'm gonna go move my pick-up into the yard, but first, my Pappy is from North Missouri (it's like Iowa South) and my Momma is from Swampeast (Southeast) Missouri/Arkansas/Mississippi.

Missouri, yeah. That's the other of the two states (heavily involved) that can't rightly be called either yankee or southron, IMHO.

Asuming you're a product of geography, whether you're one or the other in those two states is dependant upon prevailing attitudes at the neighborhood level sized geographical ideology.

[Perd Hapley]

All I know is, down in Dexter it's all flat farmland and they have Southern accents.  Up around Kirksville it's all flat farmland and they drink "pop."  Here in the Saint Louis megalopolis, it's all hills and folks talk like Midwesterners. 

[roo_ster]

Just who is/is not considered a "Yankee" depends on where the considerer resides.

South
Anybody N of the Mason-Dixon is a Yankee.  If they are obnoxious, they are a damn yankee. 

North
Folks "back east" (read: northeast) are Yankees

Northeast Quadrant of USA
Folks up in NY  & ways north are yankees

NY on up to Maine
Only residents of NY are Yankees

[gunsmith]

I think the only controversy is here at APS.
MSM has already forgotten about the Nuge sporting the shirt.
Rockers like to shock people, it's what they do.
I really like Uncle Ted but I wish he had not been sporting the shirt.
I am willing to bet though that he is not a racist at all.
When I was a left wing anarchist in the hotbed of NY
socialism, I noticed that the working class kids with
Lynyrd Skynyrd Confederate Flag shirts had more black friends
then the white rad/lib kids protesting them.
Seemed ironic that the ones who professed the most hate
for the Confederate Flag didn't have any black friends.