Author Topic: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'  (Read 22721 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2008, 09:43:04 AM »
Can you imagine how much current those overhead trolley wires would have to carry?

Can you image what would happen if a tree branch fell on one?

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2008, 09:52:22 AM »
There is a company called Valcent Products Inc. that does a vertical growth system of algae for biofuel.  The theory is that surface area exposed to light is the major factor in algae growth, so Valcent went vertical.  http://www.valcent.net/s/Ecotech.asp?ReportID=182039  is the site.  They claim they can get 20,000 barrels of oil per acre per year.  Also, they can tailor the species of algae to the type of fuel needed.  It is still in the testing phase, but it appears to be quite promising, especially paired with solar/wind power for the pumping system.   
In the world of science, there is physics.  Everything else is stamp collecting.  -Ernest Rutherford

K Frame

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2008, 10:03:14 AM »
The Northeast Passenger Corridor, which goes from Washington, DC, to Boston, is fully electrified for passenger service, but not for freight service.

The trains use overhead service wires.

The branch from Harrisburg to Philadelphia has been, I believe, de-electrified.
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Physics

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2008, 10:05:26 AM »
Cars don't last forever, so I'm quite sure I'll be replacing mine eventually.  That said, I'll gladly consider an electric car as long as:

It is the size and capacity of a current model Corolla (in terms of luggage and human carrying capacity).

It can do at least 70mph in moderately mountainous terrain (think Blue Ridge Mtns).

It can go at least 300 miles on a single charge.

Can be charged at home via a 220V (120v even better) outlet overnight and at special charging stations ("gas" stations) in no more than 15 minutes.

0-60 in less than 15sec with a driver, one passenger, and a moderately full trunk (think average weekend trip).

Those specs will make the car usable to me.  They're not ideal, but it overcomes any hurdles I currently have about the technology.  I can forgo the charging stations as long as I can go at least 500 miles and charge from 120v outlets overnight.

Chris

Tesla Motors makes a car that almost meets your expectations.  The only one it doesn't meet is the range requirements, it can go ~220 miles between charges, but still must charge overnight.  It has a top speed of 125, and will go from 0-60 in 4 seconds.  If I remember correctly, that is better than the original Dodge Vipers for acceleration.  http://www.teslamotors.com/

I think it costs around $100,000 though.   undecided
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mtnbkr

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2008, 10:12:25 AM »
The Tesla also doesn't meet my carrying capacity requirements.

It's a start, but "not quite there yet".

Chris

K Frame

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2008, 10:24:29 AM »
Given my current job in relationship to my house, and the rather limited number of miles I have to travel, a Chevy Volt would appear to be a good choice for me.

However, it wouldn't work out so well with Mason, trips to Mom's, etc.
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Firethorn

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2008, 10:47:14 AM »
Quote
Those specs will make the car usable to me.  They're not ideal, but it overcomes any hurdles I currently have about the technology.  I can forgo the charging stations as long as I can go at least 500 miles and charge from 120v outlets overnight.
I suggest you add to your specs the requirement for a kevlar lining of the battery compartment.  It will be sorely needed when the batteries blow. 

What, compared to when the gas tanks blow?

Quote
What intrigues me is the selection of batteries.  Seems I remember from somewhere (like experience for example) the highest demands on an engine and therefore on mileage occurs during acceleration and the greatest of waste of energy is during braking.  That being the case why would not the propeller heads design a hybrid that shifts to a non-internal combustion power source during the time when energy demands are the lowest (steady state cruising)?

This is already a function of many/most hybrid vehicles.  If they're running the engine during a steady cruise it's either because the battery is too low or you're going too fast for the motor to keep the vehicle's speed up.

Quote
Why not supplement the IC source during periods of highest demand?  Why not recover the lost energy expended during braking?

Again, standard part of a hybrid design.  During a hard accel from a stop, the motor will start the accelleration process, then the engine starts and proceeds to provide it's power to the accelleration.  What it does when speed levels off depends on the programming/mode of the hybrid vehicle, the state of the battery, the speed it's cruising at, the power needed to maintain that speed, etc...

Quote
I would love to have an automotive design engineer explain why flywheel technology and regenerative braking are not part of the solution being developed.  As a concept flywheel energy would be tapped to assist the engine in acceleration.

I keep seeing regenerative braking being part of the solution, where does it say that it's not going to be.  While flywheel tech is neat, thus far it hasn't beaten batteries in energy density/cost/usability.

As for not switching over - well, I want my house at 68-70 24-7, drive a car at 100mph, never shut off my computers, etc...

That'd be too expensive financially(and safely), so I'll reach a compromise.

Mtnbkr, you listed what you wanted out of an EV.  What if they came up with a vehicle that meets most of your requirements?  Say, the charge takes 45 minutes, not 15.  250 miles range with you having it loaded down and going 70mph.
The trick?  Gas is $10/gallon.

How about a much cheaper electric vehicle, that only has a 60 mile range@70mph, but you can buy or rent a generator in a small trailer that provides extra storage space as well as a high efficiency IC engine(could be gasoline, diesel, or even ethanol, propane, CNG, etc...).  You only hook up the trailer for long trips.

K Frame

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2008, 10:49:42 AM »
I thought most hybrids now on the market do use recuperative braking?
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Scout26

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2008, 11:42:32 AM »
Can you imagine how much current those overhead trolley wires would have to carry?

Can you image what would happen if a tree branch fell on one?

Don't have to.   Lots of rail lines in Germany have the over head electric.  Once when we we're rail-loading to have fun do a Graf-Hohenfels rotation of the troops with a PRC-77 radio on his back managed to hit on of the lines with the antenna.....not much left other then his boots.  shocked
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Desertdog

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2008, 12:17:36 PM »
Quote
The only issue with CNG and propane is that fuel leaks can lead to problems.  Natural gas can trap in cover areas or in the passenger compartment.  Propane is heavier than air and can trap in low spots.  There is also the danger that you are driving around with pressurized fuel tanks that will release nice little vapor clouds of flammable gas if they are punctured.  Might be a little more dangerous than gasoline.
As a retired propane man of 40+ years, driver/service and NG service, I definately agree with you on propane settling in low spots.  Natural gas can accumulate in closed areas, but very seldom, as most spaces are ventilated enough for it to dissipate.  When they do blow up, it is big news, mainly because it happens so seldom. 
Very seldom is a propane tank punctured. usually it is a hose breaking, or a valve broken off.  For broken valves, clear the area and make sure there is no sourse of ignition.  FD can hose, preferrably fog, the area to help dissapate the vapores.
Electric caused fires are are so frequent that they are lucky to make the news.

MechAg94

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2008, 03:15:23 PM »
No disagreement there that it is rare.  I was just thinking what would happen if you have several hundred thousand cars driving around and occasionally getting in high speed accidents.  Hard to say if it would be worse. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2008, 03:16:20 PM »
There is a company called Valcent Products Inc. that does a vertical growth system of algae for biofuel.  The theory is that surface area exposed to light is the major factor in algae growth, so Valcent went vertical.  http://www.valcent.net/s/Ecotech.asp?ReportID=182039  is the site.  They claim they can get 20,000 barrels of oil per acre per year.  Also, they can tailor the species of algae to the type of fuel needed.  It is still in the testing phase, but it appears to be quite promising, especially paired with solar/wind power for the pumping system.   
I have seen at least 2 or 3 articles in the last 6 months about seemingly good biofuel options.  I guess we will see how those pan out over the next few years. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Physics

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2008, 09:34:14 PM »
Mechage: can you post links to these other companies? 
In the world of science, there is physics.  Everything else is stamp collecting.  -Ernest Rutherford

taurusowner

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2008, 10:48:22 PM »
Do the greenies have a no-oil solution to jet fuel and air travel/shipping?  Other than their usual "don't use it answer.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2008, 03:03:24 AM »
Do the greenies have a no-oil solution to jet fuel and air travel/shipping?  Other than their usual "don't use it answer.
No, they don't have any solutions to that. I'd suggest nuclear power myself grin.

Regolith

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2008, 04:19:45 AM »
Do the greenies have a no-oil solution to jet fuel and air travel/shipping?  Other than their usual "don't use it answer.
No, they don't have any solutions to that. I'd suggest nuclear power myself grin.

I don't think nuclear would work too well for air travel...

Now shipping on the other hand...it'd be extremely efficient for those massive cargo ships.  The greenies would throw a hissie fit, though.  laugh
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Firethorn

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2008, 06:56:02 AM »
I don't think nuclear would work too well for air travel...

Now shipping on the other hand...it'd be extremely efficient for those massive cargo ships.  The greenies would throw a hissie fit, though.  laugh

Actually....  The USAF came up with a nuclear powered bomber once.

But yeah, I'd go for the big cargo ships first.  Better yet, though, I'd generally go for local manufacture.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2008, 07:11:41 AM »
Do the greenies have a no-oil solution to jet fuel and air travel/shipping?  Other than their usual "don't use it answer.
No, they don't have any solutions to that. I'd suggest nuclear power myself grin.

I don't think nuclear would work too well for air travel...

Now shipping on the other hand...it'd be extremely efficient for those massive cargo ships.  The greenies would throw a hissie fit, though.  laugh
Perhaps some kind of air ship then? Not as fast as a plane, but faster than boat or swimming...
Greenies throwing hissie fits is good. If they want to get upset enough to eventually cause themselves to have heart attacks, then it's their fault angel.

Iain

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2008, 07:36:55 AM »
I.

do.

not.

WANT.

an electric car.

Do. Not. Want. Sponge. Cake. Want. Chocolate.

Quote
And there's millions of people just like me.

And they're all under five.
I do not like, when with me play, and I think that you also

RocketMan

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2008, 08:01:09 AM »
Actually....  The USAF came up with a nuclear powered bomber once.

But yeah, I'd go for the big cargo ships first.  Better yet, though, I'd generally go for local manufacture.

It was the NB-36H, a test aircraft based on a B-36 Peacemaker bomber.  The reactor did not actually provide propulsive power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36

RE: Nuclear powered cargo ships, I toured this one when it visited Portland, OR in the Sixties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah
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longeyes

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2008, 08:02:08 AM »
A green America?

Think Amish. 

Without God.
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lupinus

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2008, 08:47:10 AM »
I.

do.

not.

WANT.

an electric car.

Do. Not. Want. Sponge. Cake. Want. Chocolate.

Quote
And there's millions of people just like me.

And they're all under five.

So, because a certain side doesn't like something we have to go along or we are five year olds?

I don't want an electric car either.  Even if they got the range better and charging to not take so long I don't want one.  Why the hell should I be forced to buy something I have zero interest in buying?  That's not being a five year old, thats being a consumer of the product you want.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Physics

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2008, 09:39:13 AM »
Valcent Products Inc. can make jet fuel out of algae lipids, or so they say.  This is why algae seems so good, is because you can obtain different fuels from different algae species.  Again, according to them. 
In the world of science, there is physics.  Everything else is stamp collecting.  -Ernest Rutherford

Regolith

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2008, 09:55:28 AM »
Valcent Products Inc. can make jet fuel out of algae lipids, or so they say.  This is why algae seems so good, is because you can obtain different fuels from different algae species.  Again, according to them. 

My guess is that the total amount of jet fuel they've derived can fit in a small jar. 

Algae is promising, but it has a LONG ways to go.
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Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

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taurusowner

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Re: 'Renewable energy good, but we need oil now'
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2008, 10:48:37 AM »
A green America?

Think Amish. 

Without God.

Great. A monotonous, hard, and depressing lifestyle without the one thing that makes it bearable.  Sign me up sad