The Romneys Have Struggled

[Tallpine]

If you are saying much of the "economy" is based on fantasy and the buying and re-buying of **** we don't need, you are right.

...

I'm saying that if you want to make money, then sell toys instead of vegetables. 

[birdman]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=160832024&ft=1&f=

Well, this makes me feel so much better.

If they have not worried about money, they have not struggled like the rest of us.

They are not like the rest of us at all.

Speaking as someone who HAS MS, you can take your opinion and pretty much eat *expletive deleted*it.  Money or not, it's a struggle that you can't possibly understand unless you have it.  She is correct, it is a cruel teacher, regardless of ability to pay for treatment (which btw, ALL of the MS drugs are available free from their respective manufacturers). 

You should pray to god every night and every morning that you and your family don't have to struggle like she and her family did with MS. 

I've had to worry about money in the past to the extent of cutting down on food, dealing with collections, and having my truck repossessed, and now I have to worry about MS, I can tell you without a doubt, I'd give up my 1%'er status now and go back to worrying about money in a freakin' NANOSECOND if it meant I wouldn't have MS. 

Worrying about how to make a payment on a physical object?  Big whoop.  How about waking up every morning wondering if you'll suddenly (a few hours onset) start going blind (had that happen, thankfully IV steroids arrested the attack) or if you'll lose feeling in your feet (had that happen) or lose motor control in your shooting/writing hand (had that happen two years ago, and it still re-occurs), or have burning pain in your legs that no medication can treat, or have fatigue so bad you can't get out of bed to go to work (about every few weeks) now THAT is worry, and a struggle that affects you and very one close to you.

Put yourself in their shoes...she could wake up tomorrow and never be able to see her children and grand children ever again, or be confined to a wheelchair, or be in agonizing pain.  Don't you think that's a struggle for her and her family?   Now throw in breast cancer AT THE SAME TIME, and don't forget that MS meds are immune suppressants and when combined with chemo and other cancer treatment (or even by themselves) can make even the flu a potential trigger for an MS relapse or life threatening infection.

Economic situations can improve with time, effort, and the help of others, MS only gets worse in the long run.

So in summary, and speaking for the other 400,000 MS sufferers in the US, go to hell.

[longeyes]

I'm saying that if you want to make money, then sell toys instead of vegetables. 

Let them eat toys?

[longeyes]

No one is questioning A.R.'s struggle.  I think the issue is whether this kind of struggle is relevant to the election of a President.  We don't need a Moral Struggle competition between the Romneys and the Obamas, but we are getting it.  The problem is the people end up tuning out both sides, even if one side is lying and the other telling the truth.

[Fitz]

No one is questioning A.R.'s struggle.  I think the issue is whether this kind of struggle is relevant to the election of a President.  We don't need a Moral Struggle competition between the Romneys and the Obamas, but we are getting it.  The problem is the people end up tuning out both sides, even if one side is lying and the other telling the truth.

Actually, no.

The comment birdman responded to from Jamie B was most definitely questioning A.R.'s struggle


This is what he said.

If they have not worried about money, they have not struggled like the rest of us.

They are not like the rest of us at all.

[birdman]

No one is questioning A.R.'s struggle.  I think the issue is whether this kind of struggle is relevant to the election of a President.  We don't need a Moral Struggle competition between the Romneys and the Obamas, but we are getting it.  The problem is the people end up tuning out both sides, even if one side is lying and the other telling the truth.

BS.  Jamie B said specifically that they haven't "struggled like the rest of us". My point is he should thank god he and the other 99.7% of America without MS hasn't.

And I would bet my entire savings that there isn't a day that goes by where Mitt wouldn't give up all his millions if it meant Ann could live without the specter of MS.

[Tallpine]

Let them eat toys?

Might be different if people get so poor that eating is a luxury.

[Jamie B]

Speaking as someone who HAS MS, you can take your opinion and pretty much eat *expletive deleted*.  Money or not, it's a struggle that you can't possibly understand unless you have it.  She is correct, it is a cruel teacher, regardless of ability to pay for treatment (which btw, ALL of the MS drugs are available free from their respective manufacturers). 

You should pray to god every night and every morning that you and your family don't have to struggle like she and her family did with MS. 

I've had to worry about money in the past to the extent of cutting down on food, dealing with collections, and having my truck repossessed, and now I have to worry about MS, I can tell you without a doubt, I'd give up my 1%'er status now and go back to worrying about money in a freakin' NANOSECOND if it meant I wouldn't have MS. 

Worrying about how to make a payment on a physical object?  Big whoop.  How about waking up every morning wondering if you'll suddenly (a few hours onset) start going blind (had that happen, thankfully IV steroids arrested the attack) or if you'll lose feeling in your feet (had that happen) or lose motor control in your shooting/writing hand (had that happen two years ago, and it still re-occurs), or have burning pain in your legs that no medication can treat, or have fatigue so bad you can't get out of bed to go to work (about every few weeks) now THAT is worry, and a struggle that affects you and very one close to you.

Put yourself in their shoes...she could wake up tomorrow and never be able to see her children and grand children ever again, or be confined to a wheelchair, or be in agonizing pain.  Don't you think that's a struggle for her and her family?   Now throw in breast cancer AT THE SAME TIME, and don't forget that MS meds are immune suppressants and when combined with chemo and other cancer treatment (or even by themselves) can make even the flu a potential trigger for an MS relapse or life threatening infection.

Economic situations can improve with time, effort, and the help of others, MS only gets worse in the long run.

So in summary, and speaking for the other 400,000 MS sufferers in the US, go to hell.

You are completely mistaken.
My best friend has MS, and I am quite aware of the issues.
She is currently dealing with no movement in her left hand.
The list of medications that she takes daily is amazing.
She has days where she is confined to her wheelchair, and I help her running by errands.
She has a pacemaker, a port that needs flushing bi-monthly, and has ad 2 major surgeries just this year.
She had days where she is blind, and I am with her to help her because I love her as a wonderful friend.
I have seen the cost of the myriad of medications that she has to take, and it is staggering.

I have known her well for almost 20 years, and I am pleased with every day that she shoulders on.
She has more strength and guts than any other human that I know.
She used to be an RN, and is acutely aware of her situation.

My anger with Ann Romney is playing the 'I am sick' card to help her hubby get elected. Period.
Knowing what Andi goes through daily to stay alive, and the fact that she is such an upbeat person in spite of her nasty disease, makes me disgusted with Ann Romney.
Andi does not have the benefit of financial luxury to be surrounded with nurses and aids galore.
She has just me, her friend and neighbor, and her aging parents.

I suggest that you pound sand in your incorrect assessment of me.
There will be no need in the future for you to address me in any way.

[birdman]

You did NOT state that you were referring to her "I'm sick" as helping her husband get elected.

You DID say "if they have not worried about money, they haven't struggled like the rest of us"

At no point in your ORIGINAL post did you refer to what you now state is your reasoning.  So either edit the original (and I'll likewise remove my post) to reflect that, or pound sand.

 If you had stated your point originally I would not have made my "incorrect" assessment.

I didnt know your situation or familiarity with MS, now I do.  But your original statement still galls me, and if you stand by it, and don't correct or clarify it, that seems odd.

In the article you cited, her statements were in response to OTHERS saying that "they didn't know how good they have it", as if they haven't struggled.  She stated they had, and why.  In her convention speech, she brought up MS only to describe how Mitt was there for her when their family had struggles, and how they dealt with it as a family.  She is no more using it to get him elected as the opposition is using it to disparage her.  The MS thing was FIRST brought up by what were effectively attacks (on her horseback riding) on the Romney's.  Before that, neither her nor Mitt brought it up to "get elected". 

Michelle has described the "hardships" her and Barack had, and he himself extolled them in his books...are you going to be equally critical of that?

I apologize for my assessment of you, and I am sincerely sorry for what you have to deal with, as I know it well. 

But do not act hurt and offended NOW when your original post was the offensive item, did not have the clarification you now add, and could easily be taken in the way I did. 

Imagine your friend reading your original post...that effectively, if she had more money, she would not have "suffered like the rest of us"...think about it...read it in your head as if you were reading it to her....how would she take it. 

Remember, TONE doesn't exist in text, and words mean something.  Regardless of what you MEANT, your actual words were offensive.

[zxcvbob]

or have burning pain in your legs that no medication can treat...

I had that a few years ago for a couple of weeks as I was recovering from a lower back injury.  Back finally started getting better and sciatica kicked in bigtime.  APAP 10-500's didn't do anything, and high dose oxycodone just barely took the edge off.  If it was permanent, I don't know that I could've handled it; gave me an understanding for folks who off themselves when suffering some dreadful disease.

The Romneys probably don't understand the struggles of poor people just trying to get by.  And few people understand the struggles that they have (I sure don't, I don't wanna give the impression that I do with my previous paragraph).  And other folks have totally different struggles.  I didn't know it was a contest.

[birdman]

It's not a contest.  However, the article posted described an interview where effectively, it was made into one.  Specifically, she was asked about statements by others that, because of their wealth, they lacked the ability to emphasize with others struggling in any fashion.  I don't believe she should be apologetic that they hadn't struggled financially, but when asked to effectively defend why she believes they can empathize (which, who really cares, as other posts in this read have alluded to, empathy isn't required in a chief executive, only solutions..."I feel your pain" is a cover in this age when cuddly is more important than solutions), she defended her position using her own struggles as an example.  She hasn't EVER said that she knows struggling MORE than anyone else, while those in opposition HAVE said that they have struggled LESS because of their wealth.  It doesn't matter who struggled more, or why, what matters is results, and I'll take someone who has at least a vague understanding of how e economy actually works over our current POTUS any day.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i think the obama trying to play "everyman" is much funnier

[zxcvbob]

Sorry Birdman, the "not a contest" comment wasn't directed at you.  (I can see how it might have looked that way because I quoted a snippet from your post.)  It was a comment on the futility and irrelevance of this whole line of discussion.

[birdman]

Sorry Birdman, the "not a contest" comment wasn't directed at you.  (I can see how it might have looked that way because I quoted a snippet from your post.)  It was a comment on the futility and irrelevance of this whole line of discussion.

I know, I was clarifying.  Apologies if you thought I was arguing against your point, I was attempting to further clarify that some people actually believe it is, and this whole discussion is based on an article that does so.

I'm just trying to make a specific point, and make my words amd arguments as clear as possible.

[Jamie B]

Empathy, while not required, does help with understanding.

Empathy is not weak, but is more of an acknowledgement of of what is happening.

Understanding requires knowledge, common sense, and seeing details about people and/or a situation.  

Understanding can be garnered by data gathering, but this requires a deep and wide breadth of experience.

I do not see these attributes in any current or prospective leaders at any level.

[zxcvbob]

I know, I was clarifying.  Apologies if you thought I was arguing against your point, I was attempting to further clarify that some people actually believe it is, and this whole discussion is based on an article that does so.

Sorry if I made you think you need to apologize.  (I'm just being silly at this point. What are we up to, about the 4th derivative?)

[birdman]

Empathy, while not required, does help with understanding.

Empathy is not weak, but is more of an acknowledgement of of what is happening.

Understanding requires knowledge, common sense, and seeing details about people and/or a situation.  

Understanding can be garnered by data gathering, but this requires a deep and wide breadth of experience.

I do not see these attributes in any current or prospective leaders at any level.

Absolutely agreed (on the understanding aspect).  Empathy is BS. 

And sorry for the earlier, I hope you can see my point re: words and we can move forward, I was touchy about that topic because I personally have had people say I can't understand generic suffering because I am not monetarily suffering, when in fact I'd chose that over this any day.  

I am truly saddened by your situation, and I am also truly glad your friend has someone like you in her life.  I would be unable to cope if it wasn't for my family, understanding employers, and SWMBO, and your post has made me value their contributions to my life even more.  

I know it's probably too late to mend that bridge, but if you ever want to talk about it (as richard Pryor called it "More S$&t"), feel free to PM me.  It's a hard road, and the fact your friend has a positive outlook means a lot to me...that's the hardest thing for me (fitz can attest, he's been there for me a lot) is keeping a positive outlook.

[roo_ster]

i think the obama trying to play "everyman" is much funnier

Didn't everyman go to Columbia and Yale law school after an exclusive prep school in Hawaii?  Didn;t everyman get to lead the Yale Law Review without every having to write a law review article?


I despise claims of "empathy" as ignorant and smarmy.

The proper term is "sympathy."  Unless you are me or have some magical way to read my mind, you are never going to "empathize" with me.  Even experiencing some identical stimulus will not necessarily evoke similar emotion.

Sympathy, people.

Smarmy, because the claimant is trying for something more than sympathy, something they could not ever possibly manage attain, but presumptively claim.  "I feel your pain," my *expletive deleted*ss.  Like they are some sort of omniscient/omnisentient being.

Sympathy is as good as one human is ever going to get regarding another's complex emotional reaction to stimuli.

[birdman]

Thanks roo_ster.  I too get annoyed by the whole empathy thing...though, I would have made a trek reference...troi was an EMPATH, not a sympath (the rest of the whiny crew covered sympathy in spades)

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Didn't everyman go to Columbia and Yale law school after an exclusive prep school in Hawaii?  Didn;t everyman get to lead the Yale Law Review without every having to write a law review article?


I despise claims of "empathy" as ignorant and smarmy.

The proper term is "sympathy."  Unless you are me or have some magical way to read my mind, you are never going to "empathize" with me.  Even experiencing some identical stimulus will not necessarily evoke similar emotion.

Sympathy, people.

Smarmy, because the claimant is trying for something more than sympathy, something they could not ever possibly manage attain, but presumptively claim.  "I feel your pain," my *expletive deleted*.  Like they are some sort of omniscient/omnisentient being.

Sympathy is as good as one human is ever going to get regarding another's complex emotional reaction to stimuli.

I disagree.  I understood depression and was sympathetic. I got sick went through depression as a result. Now I am empathetic.the difference is similar to reading a recipe vs eating the food

[Jamie B]

Absolutely agreed (on the understanding aspect).  Empathy is BS. 

And sorry for the earlier, I hope you can see my point re: words and we can move forward, I was touchy about that topic because I personally have had people say I can't understand generic suffering because I am not monetarily suffering, when in fact I'd chose that over this any day.  

I am truly saddened by your situation, and I am also truly glad your friend has someone like you in her life.  I would be unable to cope if it wasn't for my family, understanding employers, and SWMBO, and your post has made me value their contributions to my life even more.  

I know it's probably too late to mend that bridge, but if you ever want to talk about it (as richard Pryor called it "More S$&t"), feel free to PM me.  It's a hard road, and the fact your friend has a positive outlook means a lot to me...that's the hardest thing for me (fitz can attest, he's been there for me a lot) is keeping a positive outlook.

Check your PM

[Fitz]

Absolutely agreed (on the understanding aspect).  Empathy is BS.  

And sorry for the earlier, I hope you can see my point re: words and we can move forward, I was touchy about that topic because I personally have had people say I can't understand generic suffering because I am not monetarily suffering, when in fact I'd chose that over this any day.  

I am truly saddened by your situation, and I am also truly glad your friend has someone like you in her life.  I would be unable to cope if it wasn't for my family, understanding employers, and SWMBO, and your post has made me value their contributions to my life even more.  

I know it's probably too late to mend that bridge, but if you ever want to talk about it (as richard Pryor called it "More S$&t"), feel free to PM me.  It's a hard road, and the fact your friend has a positive outlook means a lot to me...that's the hardest thing for me (fitz can attest, he's been there for me a lot) is keeping a positive outlook.

This is true. Marc has a rough time staying positive.

I appreciate the sentiment, Marc. The happy accident that was our meeting and friendship has been a gigantic check mark in the "plus" column of my life.

MS is one seriously unfair *expletive deleted* disease. It is one that causes me great anger because this is now two people in my life whom I respect, and who I feel are tremendously valuable, who have to deal with it.

For that reason alone, I don't have a problem with AR using MS as an example of how she and those around her are not strangers to difficulty.

[zxcvbob]

I disagree.  I understood depression and was sympathetic. I got sick went through depression as a result. Now I am empathetic.the difference is similar to reading a recipe vs eating the food

When you experience something yourself, you still don't know how someone else feels when they experience something just like it... but you at least have a frame of reference to understand and maybe offer some comfort.  Or maybe even just being able to appreciate what being knocked on one's ass by whatever is all about.  That's all empathy is.  Sympathy is a lot closer to pity, and nobody wants that. 

Troi was just a plot device to move the stories along.

[roo_ster]

I disagree.  I understood depression and was sympathetic. I got sick went through depression as a result. Now I am empathetic.the difference is similar to reading a recipe vs eating the food

You can tell me about your subjective response, but not about some third person's response.  Better & closer for sure, but not there.

For instance, some stimuli caused me some rather serious distress but I pushed on through while a buddy, in the same situation, offed himself.  I don't claim any sort of moral superiority or more mental toughness.  I can sympathize with his experience, but I don't claim to understand his subjective experience or why it was we had different outcomes to similar stimuli.  I certainly don't claim to have felt the same emotions he did.  Maybe if I did, I would have offed myself too?  I don't know.  Which is the point(1). 

Human behavior and all that goes into it is a complex critter.  I sympathize with psychologists who work to understand it and I despise those who claim (without hard evidence) to be able to explain it. (DSM-I through -IV, I am looking at you.)

Last thing: I don't understand the diminution of sympathy.  It takes more effort and likely more compassion to have sympathy for someone with whom you share no common experience than to have sympathy or "empathy" for someone with shared experience.


(1) Maybe I am too much the empiricist or am getting hung up on epistemology.  Wouldn't be the first time.

[MillCreek]

Troi was just a plot device to move the stories along.

I bet that just about every participant in this thread can agree on one thing: Troi had nice boobs.