Moore OK man beaten to death by cops

[Tallpine]

That "experience" could be from prosecuting the arresting officer (like that ever happens) or from being said officer's supervisor.

Or maybe he used "experience" a little loosely, and he's talking about arresting multiple D&D's *without* killing them in the process.

Remember who you're talking to here 

I have a lot of experience dropping trees but so far have never dropped one on a pickup, so I apparently can't criticize anyone who does. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Remember who you're talking to here 

I have a lot of experience dropping trees but so far have never dropped one on a pickup, so I apparently can't criticize anyone who does. 

with your experience could you critique how that tree was dropped without seeing it?
how?

[Tallpine]

with your experience could you critique how that tree was dropped without seeing it?
how?

If it hit a pickup, I can say with near certainty that somebody goofed 

(unless it says "USFS" on the side      )

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

If it hit a pickup, I can say with near certainty that somebody goofed 

(unless it says "USFS" on the side      )

is it the cutter?  or the guy who drove up and parked his pickup?

[Tallpine]

is it the cutter?  or the guy who drove up and parked his pickup?

Some guy just walked where I was about to shoot 

[MechAg94]

is it the cutter?  or the guy who drove up and parked his pickup?

somebody means somebody.  Take your pick and we can discuss how a goof might have happened. 

I agree these cops probably get a pass without evidence they did anything wrong.  If the video disappears, that might change things or at least my opinion. 

[Scout26]

Just to clarify, I spent 4+ years on active duty as an MP officer.   We (myself and my soldiers) were trained on how to obtain and maintain cooperation from those ill-inclined to cooperate.   None of those techniques involved killing the subject.

And do keep in mind that most of our  subjects were 18-21 year old young men who had been highly trained in the art of killing and exceptionally physically fit.  Throw in a high level of testosterone, a marked lack of available females (12+ to 1 male to female ratio in the local area), enough money to purchase large quantities of German Beer and Liquor and you have the perfect recipe for a large number of D&D's on any given night, but especially Saturdays and Sundays.   Even worse is when they've just come back from a couple of months in the field or the Brits visiting the MTA.

Never once did we have cause such harm in ensuring there detention that they needed hospitalization for any injuries we inflicted.  (Some did need hospitalization as a result of the mutual combat they had engaged in prior to the MP's arrival), most required nothing more than band-aids to simply time.   See we learned how to subdue violent offenders by using the minimum use of force (generally words were most effective), and "come-alongs".  Techniques to cause discomfort to induce cooperation.

Hence my statement.  "If your attempt to arrest someone for D&D ends up with the subject dead, you have some way, somehow, royally screwed the pooch." 

[Tallpine]

None of those techniques involved killing the subject.

So you are not qualified to judge this situation [/csd]   

[KD5NRH]

See we learned how to subdue violent offenders by using the minimum use of force (generally words were most effective), and "come-alongs".  Techniques to cause discomfort to induce cooperation.

It's funny; I keep hearing stories from cops about how the drunks just won't feel the pain, but I've personally watched a retired deputy get a guy who could barely stand to cooperate fully with a properly applied wrist lock.  Then again, that was the same deputy who complained that he had to qualify annually with the gun he drew 4 times in a 25 year career, but only once with the PR-24 that he used at least three or four times a week.  He did get the sheriff to spring for occasional training though, since his "difficult" arrests tended to end up with mild bruises that healed in jail, rather than the other deputies' tendency to hospitalize them with broken bones and such.

Personally, I can't imagine being drunk enough to fight a 6'7" stocky guy with a gun and a club, but I guess the PR-24 doesn't look as big in his hands.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And were these folks similarly trained and also supervised by officers?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-108-died-in-us-custody/

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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I know from the other end of the billy club no one messed with mp's if smart cause you got hurt if you did. And I don't think thats a bad thing. That same tude would be poorly recieved in the nonuniformed world. The biggest edge I give military cops is in how they handle the mentally ill. It was obvious that they were way better at it. And the underlying brotherhood didn't hurt either. Generally being in much better shape is s great asset as well

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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Ironically my comparison groups were the cops on Andrews afb vs prince georges county md police.  They distinguished themselves as tge most trigger happy in the usa during those days and they were much less scary than base cops.

These folks slso trained and supervised by officers?
http://rokdrop.com/2012/07/17/us-military-police-in-south-korea-will-no-longer-carry-firearms-on-town-patrols/

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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

and heres a perspective from a guy with a different level and amount of "experience" than scout that seems apropos
SAME DIFFERENCE

Even with all their experience, however, MPs who have made the transition to civilian law enforcement find that being a cop can be quite different than being in the military.

Spreine learned that as he began to patrol the streets of San Clemente, Calif., in 1970.

"When I was interacting with young Marines as a Marine MP, they were very obedient," he says. "When an MP tells a Marine to do something they do it. Rank doesn't really matter; if you are an MP with the rank of sergeant and you're dealing with a general, he is still required to listen to you. But citizens were a little different."

That was due in large part to the fact that he became a police officer just as the Vietnam War began to wind down. It was an era that was not particularly cop-friendly, and he soon learned that many citizens didn't necessarily look at officers as authority figures. As a matter of fact, plenty of them had an outright disdain for cops.

"It was even more difficult at that time because we had the hippies and the yippies and the free love generation," he says. "They didn't listen well and they didn't like anything that was 'government.' I thought I had it all together coming from the Marine Corps into this profession called law enforcement, but I found out it was night and day."

As Spreine's experiences indicate, however, the differences between civilian and military duty often have more to do with the day-to-day dealings with civilians, rather than the organizations themselves. As entities, their structures are very much the same.


http://www.policemag.com/channel/careers-training/articles/2007/11/how-do-i-go-from-mp-to-cop.aspx

[Scout26]

And were these folks similarly trained and also supervised by officers?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-108-died-in-us-custody/

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Apples and Potatoes. 

These are battlefield captures, who may or may not have been wounded/injured in said fight.  Had there been any instances of detainee abuse, those involved would have been hammered for it.   Plus it doesn't breakdown those from natural causes, disease,  Plus given the huge numbers we've detained only losing 108 shows that we've provided excellent care and treatment to included medical care.

This isn't Achmed going down to the Casbah, tying on a few and then getting belligerent with the Sheriff who won't let him drive his camel back to his tent.  Generally, when these guys scream "You ain't taken me alive copper!!"  They pretty much mean it.

And then your other article.  Most of the come-along techniques were developed in the late 60's early 70's in response to the protests and riots that swept this country.  Over time they were improved and refined.  Any office that doesn't know them now was either asleep during that portion of their Police Academy or willfully ignorant.

Plus yes, dealing with military personnel is different then dealing with civilians.  You can get away with a whole lot more as an MP then you can a civilian.

[Scout26]

And let's be perfectly clear here.  What you are saying is that despite having Nightsticks, Tasers, Pepper Spray, and a 4-1 advantage (plus Motorola if they needed more help), you are perfectly okay with police executing a man on the street, in broad daylight, in front of his family, for what is generally considered to be a misdeamor?

Is that what you really mean?


Because I have a real hard time accepting that idea. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

 

These are battlefield captures,
er no  not all of them   we ended up releasing many of those who made it all the way to gitmo after investigating some were turned in for the 30 pieces of silver or to settle scores

  Had there been any instances of detainee abuse, those involved would have been hammered for it. 
er no again heck they took pictures and there was a pretty decent cover up for a while. in fact the o corps covered up pretty good. to the end 

  Plus given the huge numbers we've detained only losing 108 shows that we've provided excellent care and treatment to included medical care.
how many hundreds of thousands are arrested without getting hurt every year by civilian cops? how do those percentages compare?


And then your other article.  Most of the come-along techniques were developed in the late 60's early 70's in response to the protests and riots that swept this country.  Over time they were improved and refined.  Any office that doesn't know them now was either asleep during that portion of their Police Academy or willfully ignorant.
over time many of those techniques get outlawed when folks get their panties in a wad when someone cries

Plus yes, dealing with military personnel is different then dealing with civilians.  You can get away with a whole lot more as an MP then you can a civilian.
on this we agree

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you are perfectly okay with police executing a man on the street, in broad daylight, in front of his family, for what is generally considered to be a misdeamor?

is that a strawman?
this is executing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_Massacre

what happened in the op was a fight where one man died
your characterization of it as an execution with the available info and not having seen the video speaks to your issues way more than any the cops may or may not have.
his wifes early interviews were peculiar. she had nothing to say about what happened after the cops asked for id. she skipped over that and went to they rolled him over and i knew he was dead. i found/find that most peculiar.

[fifth_column]

Some video has been released:

http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2014/02/25/confiscated-video-showing-oklahoma-cops-killing-man-released/

Apparently the cell phone had been returned after being "confiscated" by the police.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you see an execution? cops raging outa control?
or reading the story under the video see the alleged beating after he was handcuffed?
i wonder what autopsy will show.
and the movie theatre cams might be enlightening.
i don't see anything chargeable yet but i'm no expert from the uniformed end of that.

[fifth_column]

Yes, it's interesting that the video starts after the alleged resistance ended.  No, I don't see any of the things you mention. Mention in a rather inflammatory way I might add.  The cop on his back saying "calm down sir" as the man laid there unconscious, or perhaps already dead, was a nice touch. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And yet if we are to believe the narrative he was beaten after being cuffed.did I miss that? Did it seem like he was already cuffed when video started?

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[Balog]

http://newsok.com/update-man-dies-friday-night-while-being-handcuffed-at-moore-theater/article/3934187

Hard to know what really happened. Not clear from any article I can find if he was already in handcuffs when the lethal blows were delivered, or if he got hurt prior to being restrained. Supposedly cell phone video which the cops are not releasing. I'll need to see the video to know exactly what happened.

ETA: and 2 of the 5 guys involved were off duty game wardens? WTH?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Couple things struck me. One that he very well might have been dead when they vsat him up and if he was making them think he was resisting maybe he was actually thrashing as he died. If I got pepper sprayed and pinned like that it might well kill me. I don't breath well. Also noticed his size. He was right on the point where they use 2 cuffs so they don't rip shoulders outa sockets.  If you pull on a guy that size the arm trys to pull back even if hes not actively resisting and depending on cops experience and adrenal dump he might miss that. Particularly if another cops is tugging on other arm it happens. Also wonder how much training and experience the game wardens had in that. One of the other interesting advantages mps have is they train as a team/unit and performance is much aided by that. Cops not so much and there is all too often not one guy clearly calling the shots in a fight. Gets worse when its mutiple agrncies snd the really f'd up thing is often its not the best/smarter guy who seizes control of a scene. Its kinda like asking for directions from a group. The guy least qualified is often the first to offer. Getting lost sucks. Getting dead is lots worse

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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Watched this twice its his wife before she got a chance to see video. Painful to watch and at no point did I see anything to make me believe she was deliberately untruthful.  dhe spoke well. I think that any discrepancy between her version and the video are due to traumatic experience.  That she genuinely believes thats what she saw

http://m.newsok.com/video/3222747066001

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[Scout26]

  Had there been any instances of detainee abuse, those involved would have been hammered for it. 
er no again heck they took pictures and there was a pretty decent cover up for a while. in fact the o corps covered up pretty good. to the end 

Wrongo Bucko.

MG Ryder had finished his report in Nov 2003.  CID was already investigating, and MG Taguba was completing his 15-6 investigation when the story broke in May 2004.   Trust me, neither CID nor the US Army Provost Marshal General would have covered it up.   MG Ryder was my Provost Marshal when I was in Germany and I went to MPOB and also served in Germany with Maj. David DiNenna.   I can guarandamntee there was no attempt a cover up by either of those two.

how many hundreds of thousands are arrested without getting hurt every year by civilian cops? how do those percentages compare?

You tell me.  You threw this turd in punch bowl.  As I pointed out, you are comparing Apples to Potatoes with this "factoid".

on this we agree

Actually, no, we don't.  The rules of evidence and how persons are confined and processed are completely different.  All of which is subject to the UCMJ, which for example, can be used to compel a witness (again someone subject to the UCMJ) to testify.  You can't do that to a civilian.   Also lie detector tests are used and are admissible in a Courts Marshal, but practically nowhere in civilian trials.

And no that's not a strawman.  However, No Gun Ri, is.  

My experience was in peacetime, not war, therefore your "analogies" are false.   My experience is practically the same as in this situation.  
One individual being Drunk and Disorderly.  Now barring some major medical event in that individual, THERE IS NO REASON FOR HIM TO HAVE BEEN KILLED.

Which is the point you seem to miss entirely in this thread and every other, is that the amount of force and utter lack of restraint by many cops is getting way out of hand.  Neither is there an repercussions or punishment for it.  The police have begun to view the public as the enemy, and not those they were sworn to protect.