Author Topic: Jimmy Carter denouces Obama for "Wide spread human rights violations."  (Read 10988 times)

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,429
  • My prepositions are on/in
He's just a racist Southern racist peanut farmer, of course.

And he's a racist.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,643
Jimmy has a point when he mentions things like domestic warrantless wiretapping, but the core of his criticism is that he doesn't like drone strikes against Al Qaeda, Taliban, and other enemy targets in Pakistan and elsewhere, and wants Gitmo closed.

Cry me a river - drone strikes and keeping Gitmo open are two of the very, very few things Obama is mostly getting right.

In the eyes of Jimmy Carter, it would seem that the Constitution is a suicide pact.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
he and ramsey clark are bookends
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Jimmy never runs out of good intentions.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Jamie B

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,866
  • I am Abynormal
Yea, I remember Carter and 21% interest rates.

I saw an interview with him a year or so ago, hawking his new book.

He seemed to have a very high opinion of himself when commenting on current politics.

He failed miserably with the Iran hostage rescue, and Reagan won that battle for the US.

I do not care for him at all.
Greatness lies not in being strong, but in the right use of strength - Henry Ward Beecher

The Almighty tells me He can get me out of this mess, but He’s pretty sure you’re f**ked! - Stephen

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Jimmy has a point when he mentions things like domestic warrantless wiretapping, but the core of his criticism is that he doesn't like drone strikes against Al Qaeda, Taliban, and other enemy targets in Pakistan and elsewhere, and wants Gitmo closed.

Cry me a river - drone strikes and keeping Gitmo open are two of the very, very few things Obama is mostly getting right.

In the eyes of Jimmy Carter, it would seem that the Constitution is a suicide pact.

So you want a guy who gets everything else wrong to have the power to kill you without trial?

You realize Obama has that power don't you?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Quote
So you want a guy who gets everything else wrong to have the power to kill you without trial?

You realize Obama has that power don't you?
Solid point, regardless of who is in office.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,643
So you want a guy who gets everything else wrong to have the power to kill you without trial?

You realize Obama has that power don't you?
Should Anwar Al Awlaki have been dealt with as if he were John Gotti?
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
So, let's return to the main issue:

1. Terrorists exist.
2. Terrorists are waging de-facto war against us and our allies. They are organzied enough and well-armed enough that it is difficult to use law enforcement tactics against them - you can hardly go into North Waziristan or whatnot and read Mahmood Abu-Jihad his Miranda Rights, because Mahmood is escorted by a bunch of buddies, and they've all got AKs and PKMs.
3. Some argue that Mahmood should be treated like an enemy general. We hardly put those on trial. We fire rockets at them.
4. But, others argue, also correctly, that it's hard to sort out the bad guys from the good guys in this.

There doesn't seem to be a good answer.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Should Anwar Al Awlaki have been dealt with as if he were John Gotti?

Yes,  it worked fine for Gotti.  Why not for awlaki?

Micro, the big difference here is that these people are only alleged to be the equivalent of generals in a war - there's no public evidence that they are in fact combatants.

We have not previously considered it ok to shoot suspected war criminals, like irregular leaders, without a trial.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
The main problem is that mobsters live within our society. While they do use violence, they try at least to pretend to be upstanding members of society, and do not (typically) have their armed gangs fight police in long drawn-out gun fights (excepting countries where law and order has already collapsed).

People like Shamil Basaev or Osama Bin-Ladin, on the other hand, live typically in areas where the rule of law doesn't function well even in the best of times and are usually escorted by groups of armed followers. This makes the use of police tactics highly difficult.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
So you want a guy who gets everything else wrong to have the power to kill you without trial?

You realize Obama has that power don't you?

Anyone with a 12 gauge has that power too, to put it from a different perspective.....


Killing AQ terrorists .... with drones, or with 5.56mm. from an M4 carbine is an act of war. 
I don't like Obama but I won't fault him for TKOing AQ enemies.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Carter is almost 88 years old. I'm of the opinion he was already getting senile when he was President.
Being one of Rickover's hand picked chosen few doesn't win him any points from either.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,643
Yes,  it worked fine for Gotti.  Why not for awlaki?
So we should fight a war against violent terrorists - and their leaders! - in foreign lands with barely functioning governments not with military force, but with process servers, eh?   :facepalm:
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
He failed miserably with the Iran hostage rescue, and Reagan won that battle for the US.

 ???

Reagan cut a deal rewarding Iran with weapons in exchange for hostages. I'm not sure providing several thousand TOW missiles, among other things, to a known enemy of the US is a "won that battle".


In the eyes of Jimmy Carter, it would seem that the Constitution is a suicide pact.

...

Anytime I hear someone saying that, I usually then immediately hear about how "2A is a collective right", "free speech ain't free", "the 4th amendment doesn't really require warrants", etc. In other words, something completely a really bad idea. Let me guess, the Constitution is also "a living document", "outdated", "needs to be interpreted in a modern sense"..?

If you don't like the Constitution, change it. Otherwise, it means what it says, m'kay? It's not pick and choose, and that is the source of probably about half of today's problems at a federal level.

"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,643
Anytime I hear someone saying that, I usually then immediately hear about how "2A is a collective right", "free speech ain't free", "the 4th amendment doesn't really require warrants", etc. In other words, something completely a really bad idea. Let me guess, the Constitution is also "a living document", "outdated", "needs to be interpreted in a modern sense"..?

Hmmm . . . do you hear the same when someone who was active in the founding of this nation says it?

Quote from:  Thomas Jefferson
" . . . strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means . . ."

IMNSHO, war is not a law enforcement activity.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Hmmm . . . do you hear the same when someone who was active in the founding of this nation says it?

IMNSHO, war is not a law enforcement activity.

I'm fairly Thomas Jefferson would probably not buy the "we must gut the Constitution for the feeling or illusion of security" argument. If the country was actually in danger, yes, he probably would say that we need to do something about it. But Wahabi terrorism is about as able to destroy America as Lady Gaga. MicroBalrog is right that LE tactics are not ideal against terrorists, because in DurkaDurkaStan, they do tend to be the law. They are annoying, small scale dangerous (less dangerous than say, the Russian mafia or Mexican cartels) and tend not to be overly bright.

On the flip side, a large percentage of antiterrorism laws are not aimed at terrorists. They're aimed at the US citizenry. This is not a conspiracy. It's because catching terrorists is hard, writing more laws is easy and politicians/bureaucrats are lazy. I suspect Thomas Jefferson would be of the opinion that said quote would be more applicable to the TSA than terrorists.

There is no good answer when it comes to terrorism. Only way to fix it is the underlaying problems that generate the terrorists. Good luck sorting out the governmental problems of the Middle East, North Africa and southern Asia. Best you can do is hammer down the nails when they stick up and try not to piss off too many countries or peoples if you don't have a reason.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Quote from: RevDisk
But Wahabi terrorism is about as able to destroy America as Lady Gaga.


"Them thar is friendly injuns."~~ Lt. Col George Armstrong Custer, 25 June 1876.

Well, seriously, I wonder just what the wahabiists are capable of.  Do they consider the "war" over?  What if they get some "suitcase" nukes -- or control of Pakistan's nukes. 
Their movement extends way beyond A'stan & Pakistan. 
One of the most deadly mistakes one can make is to underestimate the ability(ies) and resolve of an enemy.
.....even Lady Gaga.  [tinfoil]

Quote from: RevDisk
On the flip side, a large percentage of antiterrorism laws are not aimed at terrorists. They're aimed at the US citizenry. This is not a conspiracy. It's because catching terrorists is hard, writing more laws is easy and politicians/bureaucrats are lazy.

Actually, while this may surprise you, I agree with this.  Seems to contradict my position as stated above?  No it really doesn't.  I never said what we're doing to fight the terrs is the right thing, or that we're doing enough to eliminate them. IF we were doing enough of the right thing, I wouldn't worry.
So, I worry. 
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,643
. . . On the flip side, a large percentage of antiterrorism laws are not aimed at terrorists. They're aimed at the US citizenry.  . . .
This is actually a good point - things like putting people - American citizens - on the "no fly list" and not telling them why truly is odious to the Constitution, along with warrantless wiretaps, "administrative" warrants, fishing expeditions through library records, etc.

But I don't have a problem with dropping something that goes bang on Taliban, Al-Quaeda, and other genuine terrorists hiding out (with local "government" connivance) in some turd world dungheap who are actively and deliberately orchestrating anti-US violence.

And as far as these terrorists not being able to destroy America . . . that's right, they can't do that any more than one mound of fire ants in my back yard can kill my family. But it doesn't mean I'm going to relocate them gently to the woods; I'm going to douse the mound with Orthene and kill the little b@$t@rd$ ASAP.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,625
  • Semper Fidelis
Reagan cut a deal rewarding Iran with weapons in exchange for hostages. I'm not sure providing several thousand TOW missiles, among other things, to a known enemy of the US is a "won that battle".

The hostages were released during Reagan's Inauguration.  Howzat work again?
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
The hostages were released during Reagan's Inauguration.  Howzat work again?

He negotiated with the hostage-takers, successfully.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,625
  • Semper Fidelis
He negotiated with the hostage-takers, successfully.

When did he do that?  As President-elect?  Like those conspiracy theories, do you?
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
"Them thar is friendly injuns."~~ Lt. Col George Armstrong Custer, 25 June 1876.

Well, seriously, I wonder just what the wahabiists are capable of.  Do they consider the "war" over?  What if they get some "suitcase" nukes -- or control of Pakistan's nukes. 
Their movement extends way beyond A'stan & Pakistan. 
One of the most deadly mistakes one can make is to underestimate the ability(ies) and resolve of an enemy.
.....even Lady Gaga.  [tinfoil]

Actually, while this may surprise you, I agree with this.  Seems to contradict my position as stated above?  No it really doesn't.  I never said what we're doing to fight the terrs is the right thing, or that we're doing enough to eliminate them. IF we were doing enough of the right thing, I wouldn't worry.
So, I worry. 

Overestimating your enemy can be just as dangerous. Wahabis need to be stomped on, but we've dumped several trillion dollars into unrelated activities. Plus sharply reduced our own freedom. Making us less in a position to combat terrorism.

An example of overestimation. Suitcase nukes are basically an urban legend. The correct name is a linear implosion type weapons, and commonly referred as atomic demolitions. The most advanced linear implosion nuclear munitions are a 100 lbs and have a fraction of a kiloton yield. The more common ones were 150 lbs plus, had minimal shielding, and a <2kt yield. Radiation detectors can pick them up with ease, because they emit like no tomorrow. If you had your own AF and short duration operational, not so much of a problem. Plus nuclear weapons do have shelf lives, it varies depending on type and maintenance. Russian surplus warheads would not be very useful unless refurbished, which takes a fairly advanced technological base. Linear implosion weapons would be basically more useful as radiological weapons rather than proper nuclear weapons, because a tractor trailer filled with any RDX explosive would be a lot more dangerous.

Pakistan does not have the technical ability to make compact linear implosion nuclear weapons, and won't for a few decades of advanced research.

This is sorta the example I have used in the past when government officials were trying to BS people. They did not like me mentioning this information at a disaster management symposium. Again, dangers of propaganda and overestimation used as invalid excuses.


The hostages were released during Reagan's Inauguration.  Howzat work again?

Ah. The Iran Contra incident?
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Overestimating your enemy can be just as dangerous. Wahabis need to be stomped on, but we've dumped several trillion dollars into unrelated activities. Plus sharply reduced our own freedom. Making us less in a position to combat terrorism.

An example of overestimation. Suitcase nukes are basically an urban legend. The correct name is a linear implosion type weapons, and commonly referred as atomic demolitions. The most advanced linear implosion nuclear munitions are a 100 lbs and have a fraction of a kiloton yield. The more common ones were 150 lbs plus, had minimal shielding, and a <2kt yield. Radiation detectors can pick them up with ease, because they emit like no tomorrow. If you had your own AF and short duration operational, not so much of a problem. Plus nuclear weapons do have shelf lives, it varies depending on type and maintenance. Russian surplus warheads would not be very useful unless refurbished, which takes a fairly advanced technological base. Linear implosion weapons would be basically more useful as radiological weapons rather than proper nuclear weapons, because a tractor trailer filled with any RDX explosive would be a lot more dangerous.

Pakistan does not have the technical ability to make compact linear implosion nuclear weapons, and won't for a few decades of advanced research.

This is sorta the example I have used in the past when government officials were trying to BS people. They did not like me mentioning this information at a disaster management symposium. Again, dangers of propaganda and overestimation used as invalid excuses.
..........

The most difficult part of making a nuke is to get the fissile material in a state ready to be used as a weapon.
The barrel of a howitzer is sufficient to make the rest.
A simple fission device is easy (aside from procuring the fissile stuff).  The bomb used on Hiroshima may be puny by today's standards but it blew up Hiroshima just fine. 
There is controversy surrounding the SADM (suitcase nukes) because some Soviet ones may (or may not) have gone missing.  Apparantly there are controversies surrounding inventory ##s and no one really knows.  Prior to Al Qaeda's rise to pop culture status  [tinfoil]  there were ....mysterious stories (usually on late night radio) about SADMs being covertly planted in America. 
I don't know if those stories are true or not.  I really don't care. 

"Over" estimating or "under" estimating the enemy.   IMNSHO many people "over" estimated our enemies in WW2.  Neither the Germans or the Japanese were going to invade America, despite the fears of many who lived in that era.  But after the war was over and we were privy to what the Germans & Japs had in store should the war have lasted longer, and the story changes.
The Germans had no weapons that could reach from Germany to America, let alone a return trip.  But they had them on the drawing board -- and they had nukes on the drawing board.
The Japanese as well.  They had a nuclear program and a better atomic fuse than anything we had, but no fissile material.  That deficit was almost rectified by the Nazis, who sent them some via U-boot during the war.  Thankfully we managed to intercept that particular sub and thus thwart the Japanese.  Had the Japs develop the means to build and deliver a atomic bomb they had plans (it's part of the historical record) to hit San Francisco.
And I think the Nazis would have loved to hit New York and/or Washington DC.

Are you privy to what AQ intends to do ten, twenty years from now?  Are you in a position to provide a guesstimate about what their abilities will be by then?   

I am not trying to say it's a rock-solid cinch AQ is going to win this war, obliterate America, nuke Washington (that would actually be more of a favor than a act of war these days anyway) or anything.  I don't know what the future will be any more than anyone else.   I just don't like it that we seem to be taking it for granted that wahabiists are no longer a big threat to America, that we're winding down in A'stan and peace is at hand.  We HAVEN'T won the war.

There are a lot of good questions about how to do that....whatever.  I'm not up to getting into all that right now anyway as other events are distracting me.....let's just say I "get" the problems, I haven't any ultra-brilliant solutions for them right now....and leave it at that.   For now atleast.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero