Mike Rowe wites a letter to President Obama

[Balog]

What Jfruser said. Also, a lot of office drones exist only to prop up bloated bureaucracy. And most computer jobs can be outsourced more easily, as it does not require physical presence. This is not the case with electricians, plumbers etc. Their jobs are vital, their skills require as many if not more years of training, and they are dying out while the ranks of office workers swell.

One type of work is not more important or better. But one can be outsourced, and one cannot. One is popular, highly thought of, pushed as the "best" choice by most parents and guidance people, and is engorged with people. The other is scorned, dismissed, and looked down on. That attitude is what we seek to correct.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

It appears APS is getting pally with its inner proletariat.

I think it's the educators, actually

It's the parents. They always want the kid to go to college, preferably go the doctor/lawyer route. From what Rush has said, it probably dates back to the depression. College kids could get jobs, other people couldn't.

[mtnbkr]

most computer jobs can be outsourced more easily, as it does not require physical presence

Depends on what you are doing and how rapidly stuff needs to get done when the SHTF.

I do a lot of work with remote systems, but I'm in the same building as my most critical infrastructure.  Our contract also says at least one person from my group must be on site 6am-11pm 7 days a week, 365days a year.  Yup, even Christmas.  Other groups extend that to 24/7/365.  Yes, we're well aware of telecommuting, VPN, etc and even have on-call folks that operate that way, but folks are still *here*.

In IT, the only areas I've seen that can effectively be outsourced to remote places are development and non-critical system management.  Everything else either requires a local person or SLAs that allow time to dispatch a body to the site. 

Chris

[charby]

I'm actually in back in school (half-time) attaining another degree so I can be outside and performing manual labor and using my gray matter. I'm studying Forestry.

I keep checking out the local IBEW for another option to be an apprentice electrician but the waiting list is two years to start and they only take applications once a year. If I could get into an apprenticeship program right now, I'd do it.

[Balog]

Chris: I know not all computer work can be outsourced. But a lot more of it can be outsourced than plumbing, electrician work etc.

[Gewehr98]

But a lot more of it can be outsourced than plumbing, electrician work etc.

That depends on the strength of the dollar vs. rupee, I'd wager. 

[RocketMan]

Mike Rowe's letter to Obama will be measured for what political benefit might accrue from it to the administration.  Nothing more.

[Balog]

G98: ummm, I'm not sure how dollar vs. rupee affects the ability to fix plumbing from thousands of miles away. /confused

[Gewehr98]

Computer outsourcing overseas has throttled back considerably since the economic crisis.

When you call Dell customer support these days, you stand a fair chance of getting somebody speaking American English vs. the colonial British/Indian dialect. 

[RevDisk]

What Jfruser said. Also, a lot of office drones exist only to prop up bloated bureaucracy. And most computer jobs can be outsourced more easily, as it does not require physical presence.

Try working IT security.  Any place that outsources that line of work gets exactly what it purchased in very short order.   

Whenever people bemoan a lack of whatever profession, I usually just shrug and say wait six months.  The way it is supposed to work is that if some object or service becomes rare, price goes up accordingly.  If something is common, price should drop.  The problem is, people always want to mess with the supply and demand curves.   Businesses don't want to pay more wages if the talent pool dries up.  OTOH, folks don't like taking a pay cut if the labor market is flooded.  The government muddles in both areas.

[tokugawa]

Yes, the trades are looked down on, unless you are in an "artistic" trade- fine woodwork, timber framing, skilled masonry, etc. But the money can be good, and it sure is nice to have delighted people tell you how lovely the job looks.  Plus you can be your own boss.
  I have met some really bright "blue collar" workers.  And some not so bright, like anywhere. Met some professers I thought were dumb as posts. Like the guy heading up the local private school, history degree.  I remarked in this day and age it might not be a good idea, with a large complement of East Asian students, to have a "wog-a-thon" to raise money. (walk and jog) This history professor had NO idea what I was talking about. None.  So I suggested some alternate "thons" he could have- use your imagination.
 

[Regolith]

It appears APS is getting pally with its inner proletariat.
It's the parents. They always want the kid to go to college, preferably go the doctor/lawyer route.

That's true, of course, but I think that the educators have some degree of culpability as well.  It is very, very rare for counselors or teachers to talk about options other than going to college, and in all my years here at the university I have never heard a professor mention trade schools or technical schools with anything other than contempt or indifference, as they supposedly aren't training people to become "good citizens."


As for pay, I know a guy who does high-rise scaffolding, and he's making almost double what I can expect to make once I graduate due to hazard pay. And he doesn't have to pay back $35,000 in student loans.  Good paying jobs can be had without college diplomas, they are just usually tougher or more hazardous than other jobs.

[MicroBalrog]

Also, your post(1) displays ignorance of what requires skilled labor.  For instance, an auto mechanic does not produce physical items, he merely maintains what is already produced.  He uses his mind and tooling to do what no robot could do: diagnose and fix problems on vehicles that break in many & various ways due to the many and varied ways owners use their vehicles.  Done well, this requires physical and mental flexibility that no robot or software can currently invoke.

What is your point?

I have never said auto mechanics were bad people, or stupid, or somehow inferior. I respect them very much because they're doing something I will never be capable of doing because of the limitations of my own hardware and software. But I do not believe in the notion – demonstrated by some people here – that a switch from manufacturing to service-industry jobs is a bad thing. I don't somehow think that learning to do job X is “honest” labor whereas job “Y” is somehow non-work. In my view if you work and get a salary and what you do is legal (and in some cases, maybe even if it illegal), you're doing honest work. I don't presume to know who the 'better people' are.

The only thing I said is that more people doing easier jobs is a good thing.

The problem with the 'everybody has to go to college' myth is that it comes, in part, because we've watered the school syllabus down so much. I've seen modern history textbooks for Grade 11 that have more pictures in them per page than text – and I've seen early 1960's that I bet many modern adults would have difficulty comprehending.

But you take a lot of these people who graduated from these sort of schools and shove them into colleges, and guys who are actually there because they want to learn stuff like physics and biology and art history and history and archeology, they begin to suffer because their program starts getting diluted too – and to add to this, the colleges start adding programs like the General BA, which exists solely for the purpose of having people completely unable of finishing a real curriculum 'graduate' from 'college'. Which is of course  nonsense.

But in the current situation, where schools fastidiously avoid teaching anything worthwhile, more people going to college is always a good idea.

[Balog]

Micro: you're either missing the point of this discussion or deliberately ignoring it. Either way, I'm sure that poor strawman you're beating on has had enough.

[MicroBalrog]

Then would you be so kind and explain to me what I am missing?

[Nitrogen]

Absolutely no different than the work done by computer engineers, except for maybe a bit less physical work and much more prestige.

Chris

I was gonna post exactly this.
Except almost NO physical work (heck, look at my belly) but plenty of mental work.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

People who think that the only essential jobs are producing physical items just don't get it.

I don't think anyone here believes that.

First we took humanity from the plow and into the factory, and it was a great thing.

Now we're taking humanity from the factory into the office - and this is a good thing too.

This is certainly true, but I think you're ignoring the difference between unskilled labor and skilled labor.  There will always be a need for physical work.  Always.  Having someone smart, skilled, and experienced in performing that physical work is every bit as important as any purely intellectual task. 

Without the physical infrastructure around us, none of us would be free to pursue any pure intellectual work.  We'd be too busy trying to keep our sorry duffs warm, dry, fed, and healthy.

[Balog]

You seem to be getting upset about accusations no one is making (people who do mental work are inferior) while ignoring the actual discussion (skilled trades are as important as purely mental jobs, but are scorned and reviled in modern society).

[mtnbkr]

I was gonna post exactly this.
Except almost NO physical work (heck, look at my belly) but plenty of mental work.

There's plenty of physical work: assembling racks and cages, installing systems, running and tracing cables, etc.

Chris

[Nitrogen]

There's plenty of physical work: assembling racks and cages, installing systems, running and tracing cables, etc.

Chris

That's true for most people I guess, but our DC is lights out, and we only have a small number of "lower grade" personel there, basically people that rack, build, and push the buttons we tell them to in the event of a catastrophic failure.

[mtnbkr]

We have folks here who handle most of the physical installation/maintenance stuff, but sometimes you just have to do it yourself.  I spent nearly a week tracing cables between a long list of firewalls, switches, etc in order to get an accurate map.  Something that hadn't been done in the nearly 15 years we've been here. :o

Chris

[Werewolf]

But you take a lot of these people who graduated from these sort of schools and shove them into colleges, and guys who are actually there because they want to learn stuff like physics and biology and art history and history and archeology, they begin to suffer because their program starts getting diluted too – and to add to this, the colleges start adding programs like the General BA, which exists solely for the purpose of having people completely unable of finishing a real curriculum 'graduate' from 'college'. Which is of course  nonsense.

I have personal experience with the very thing Micro talks to above.

I knocked out 90 hours at Texas A&M back in the early 70's with a major in Economics. Quit due to boredom and joined the military.

Went back to college at the University of Oklahome in the mid 90's after getting laid off.

Had to retake statistics. OU for some reason couldn't wrap it's head around the fact that my 4hrs of Stat for Engineers at A&M was equivalent (actually superior) to Business Stat at OU. What the hell - easy A (it was).

It became rapidly apparent to me while taking the class that the kids in it were being short changed. They were being handed some software and a tool box and told in this situation use this tool, in that situation use that tool. They were not being taught any fundamentals, no foundation, no why this tool works and this will not. Hell - at A&M we had to derive the formula for the normal curve - had to know calculus or you just couldn't understand let alone complete the class for a grade.

I asked the Prof about this. Explained how the stat class at A&M 20 years prior had run and didn't understand why the class didn't teach statistics. His explanation boiled down to the kids didn't have the math background necessary to understand the basic math from whence statistics derived. They should have learned it in HS but didn't. They should have learned it in their college level calculus classes but didn't (watered down for business students). If they taught statistics like I'd been taught it 20 years prior 90% of the students would fail and that just wasn't an option.

I am currently a Financial Analyst. My boss is a college graduate, his boss is an MBA. I don't even bother to explain what I do or how anymore because they don't understand and told me they don't want to or need to. Just present the data, draw conclusions and present same. They are both business school graduates from the mid 90's.

Sad story, really. I imagine its even worse now.

[mtnbkr]

It became rapidly apparent to me while taking the class that the kids in it were being short changed. They were being handed some software and a tool box and told in this situation use this tool, in that situation use that tool. They were not being taught any fundamentals, no foundation, no why this tool works and this will not. Hell - at A&M we had to derive the formula for the normal curve - had to know calculus or you just couldn't understand let alone complete the class for a grade.

I took Statistics in 1992ish and didn't get any tools other than a pencil and paper.  That was one of my toughest classes.  I squeaked out a C.

Chris

[JeFF D]

I'm 22 years old in metro Detroit right now i do maintenance work for the city of warrens senior housing department.
I would do anything for a skilled trade job but getting one is almost impossible right now, atleast here it is.

[digitalandanalog]

Jeff D

Maintenance is a skilled trade. You are probably in "apprentice mode" as I am as well. I chose this career as a stepping stone for my next career that will require a college education.

Maintenance is awesome. You get electrical, plumbing, HVAC, carpentry, fabrication, problem solving, math, physics...etc. I love being a maintenance guy. I do tend to find that most people appreciate what I do because they can't or won't do what I do.

A seasoned maintenance man can make some pretty good money too.