Crap...the house furnace has died

[never_retreat]

I was told a rule of thumb for the cost of A/C is $1000 a ton. That was back in the 90's, when I paid $12,000 for two 5 ton units, a 2.5 ton, and the air handlers for them. The two 75' lengths of ductwork I got months later cost a few cents, too.

I don't know if there's a rule of thumb for BTU's.

How big is your house? 12.5 tons could cool a mobile home in the center of the earth.

[280plus]

BTUH rules of thumb vary in regards to the climate of the local area. Here in CT we go 1 ton (12,000 btuh) per 1000 sq ft.

[Brad Johnson]

We use a ton per 500 sq ft here. Summer heat loads can be extreme.

Brad

[280plus]

Is there any chance that top piece of TX all up there in OK's face isn't do friggin hot? And what is it with TX and OK and that little strip of land up there anyways?

[Sawdust]

How's the quality of Bryant?

I got another estimate, and that's the brand the guy wants to use...

Sawdust

[Jim147]

The quality of any brand is dependent on the parts and design they are using right now.

The quality of the install will make a greater difference to you.

Where are you? Maybe I can make a wild weekend run. You better have plenty of good food and adult refreshments. 

jim

[Monkeyleg]

How big is your house? 12.5 tons could cool a mobile home in the center of the earth.

That was for my studio, which was 5,000 square feet, 20 foot metal ceiling. My house used a 2.5 ton unit.

[280plus]

In many cases Bryant is essentially carrier with a few cosmetic changes. As such it is OK stuff, my problem was with their customer service and my local supplier.

[Ron]

In many cases Bryant is essentially carrier with a few cosmetic changes. As such it is OK stuff, my problem was with their customer service and my local supplier.

Sounds like my buddies story I told above.

They cater to the big shops and are less responsive to the little guy. Big shops condemn more equipment and are less prone to be repair orientated. That equals more units sold.

[Sawdust]

The quality of any brand is dependent on the parts and design they are using right now.

The quality of the install will make a greater difference to you.

Where are you? Maybe I can make a wild weekend run. You better have plenty of good food and adult refreshments.  

jim

LOL...I'm in Southern California. Although I have plenty of what you require, I imagine I'm a little too far for you.

Which is unfortunate for me, of course.

Sawdust

[Sawdust]

The guy that proposed the Bryant system has been around a while, and he installed a complete Bryant system in my old house about 12 years ago (which had no air conditioning at all).

I subsequently stayed in that house another 3.5 years before selling and moving to my present abode.

Didn't have  a single problem with that system.

He says he likes Bryant as he can get parts readily, and he doesn't get call-backs.

He has also done quite a bit of work for clients at my father-in-laws condo complex. Everybody berry happy.

I'm leaning towards using him. He needs to send me a written proposal with final pricing and the part numbers of the specific components that he wants to use.

I want to compare the Bryant components with the Carrier stuff that others have offered.

One problem that I have is that Carrier doesn't give much detail (at least that I have found) of the specific differences between components within a particular product line.

Sawdust

[Sawdust]

Any comments on the following Bryant systems?

1. Furnace: 310JAV066110
   Air Conditioner: 113ANA06000
   Coil: ADPC60245C336
$6315

2. Furnace: 310JAV066110
   Air Conditioner: 116BNA06000
   Coil: ADPC60245C336
$6765

3. Furnace: 310JAV066110
   Air Conditioner: 126BNA06000
   Coil: ADPC60245C336
$7280

A few points to consider: I don't plan to be in this house more than another ten years; we don't use the furnace much; the freon line is 3/4" in diameter, so I don't think that I will benefit from a higher A/C SEER rating.

Anywho...any comments?

With much appreciation for all of youse guys' input,

Sawdust

[280plus]

I'd go for #2 myself for what's there but question the choice of an 80% furnace. Any reason you didn't consider a 90+?

[Nick1911]

Gods, I'm not charging enough for installs

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Gods, I'm not charging enough for installs

i know how you feel

[Sawdust]

I'd go for #2 myself for what's there but question the choice of an 80% furnace. Any reason you didn't consider a 90+?

We hardly use the furnace; maybe a few times a week during the winter months in the morning to take the chill of the house when we wake up.

Why spend more for #2 (which achieves an increase in A/C SEER from 13 to 15)? My understanding is that my freon line is undersized a bit; my engineering intuition tells me that I therefore won't benefit from the higher efficiency conditioner. Again, intuition only - I could be wrong.

Sawdust

[Sawdust]

Gods, I'm not charging enough for installs

i know how you feel

Git yer butts out here!

Sawdust

[280plus]

Actually, yea, 3/4 is small. I can't recall the exact loss but I'll say like around 10%. You WOULD be better served by replacing it. But I guess you know that. My take is regardless the 16 SEER will still outperform the 13 SEER so you should see less usage. The jump from 13 to 16 is something like 30%. The jump from 16 to 26 is only about 10% more. This is why I say #2.

[Sawdust]

Thanks, 280.

I just received an estimate for a Carrier system that is exactly the same as the Bryant system #1 previously described in this thread.

Estimate was from one of the larger concerns (read: mucho overhead) in the area.

Drum roll........................................................................$10,500

Uh, no.

Sawdust

[Nick1911]

2. Furnace: 310JAV066110
   Air Conditioner: 116BNA06000
   Coil: ADPC60245C336
$6765

Luxaire TG8S120C20MP11 80%, 120kbtu input, 5 ton drive
Luxaire AL6B060F3C 16 SEER R410A 5 Ton Condensing Unit
Luxaire FC62D3XN1 5.0T coil

My cost on those parts is a hair over $3k + tax.   In your case, I'd probably throw in a $300 lineset as well.  
Like a fool, I don't mark up the parts and usually charge about $1000 for labor.  Might need to re-think that, especially since my business is completely legal, insured, licensed and legitimate now.  Those insurance premiums hurt.  I'm starting to figure out why HVAC companies charge what they do.

[Jim147]

Big house? Did they do a load calc or just replacing by size that is there.

I had a little lake house yesterday, two bedrooms, two main room that had a 3 ton heat pump and 26.3 kW of electric backup. Talk about over kill.

How cold does it get there? Or a better question for your install is what are your design temps? Could you go to a 5 ton Heat pump with a fan coil for your limited heating needs?

I priced out a 3 ton 16 seer with a 98% on a new construction with duct for a little over $6000. I haven't heard back yet and told them the price was only good for thirty days. It will be higher next time.

I can see you going 80% if you use it very little but everyone around here uses them a lot so I try to get everyone to go 95+ for the savings. Looking at cost versus return, I like the 16 seer units. Is the line set built into the walls or do they just not want to replace it?

jim

[Sawdust]

2700 sq. ft., and replacing the existing 5 ton system. It occasionally gets down to 32, but my house never gets below 64 overnight.

Air conditioning much more important.

More and more I am thinking that I should upgrade to 16 SEER unit; I think that I could save roughly $200-$300 annually over the 13 SEER, which would pay back over about 4 years.

And that's if electricity rates don't increase again. Gee, what are the chances of that out here in California where no new power plants are being built?

What's a line set?

Sawdust

[Firethorn]

What's a line set?

Logically speaking it'd be a kit to replace the freon lines you were just mentioning as being undersized.

[Sawdust]

Ah, of course.

Yes, they are buried in the walls and between floors.

In addition, I found extensive product data for all of the condensers that I am considering, and they all have tables showing what efficiency I will be losing by using 3/4" line over the distance.

It's 1%. I can live with that.

Sawdust

[Firethorn]

Yes, they are buried in the walls and between floors.

'Depending', it might be possible to use the old lines to snake the new lines in, but at 1%, why bother?  Other than if any of them have a hole, or are about to develop one...

Personally, if I was stable in my house I'd be looking at crazy ideas like putting a smallish heat pump on my boiler exhaust to extract that heat.