Author Topic: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"  (Read 8846 times)

Brad Johnson

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2007, 12:48:36 PM »
Quote
But with NO principle intact.  NO revenue after the 25 years, either.....

That's where the planning comes in.  Half the annual revenue is used for living, the other half is inventested.  Even with extremely conservativ investments (or a really lousy rate of return) you should have enough at the end of the 25 yrs to provide, in perpetuity, the same annual income as your original "half" of the jackpot payment you were using as the "living" part.

Hey, I just like the part about being able to plan ahead and provide for me and mine.  I never have been, and never will be, a "gimme what I can get now" kind of guy - I am a long-term planner.  I also abhor the govt taking any more of my money than is absolutely necessary. The fact that you have zero options on the taxation of the single-payment option rankles me to no end.  Plus, giving up more than a third of the jackpot just to get everything now seems, to me, a fairly self-defeating option.  You are taking a huge hit now on the presumption that your investing skills and the market viability will allow you to make up the loss on the front-end.  Me no likey that kind of speculation.

Brad
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wingnutx

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2007, 12:51:35 PM »
Doesn't $4m put you in the same  tax bracket as $100m?




Brad Johnson

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2007, 12:56:24 PM »
Doesn't $4m put you in the same  tax bracket as $100m?

It will if you do nothing except cash the check.  Given a couple of years to properly structure you finances you should be able to knock something off the percent tax burden.  When you're talking about numbers this big, "something" can turn into real money pretty fast. Even a 1% reduction in the effective rate would be $40,000 a year, and surely a good accountant and tax attorney can find you more than that.

Brad
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wingnutx

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2007, 01:03:57 PM »
Good thing I have my retirement grease.

Brad Johnson

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2007, 01:08:49 PM »
Okay, I give.  What's "retirement grease"?  Are you invested in the lubricant industry, or did you just stock up on Ben-Gay?

 laugh

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
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glockfan.45

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2007, 02:08:38 PM »
I buy a few tickets a week hell why not? Somebody has to win and if you dont play it wont be you. I won a little over $1500 once. If I were to win a mega jackpot I would wait to claim it till I put together and consulted a team of lawers and accountants. I would spend enough to pay off my debt, buy a nice big house, a few nice cars, and the few other things I have always yearned for (like moving to a class III friendly state and getting a few toys). The rest would be invested wisely at the advice of my expert team. I figure I would continue to work at least part time in some capacity, as I have always thought too much money and spare time will make you go crazy. If I had 150 million after taxes 25 million or so would come out to play and do the before metioned tasks. The rest would be invested as I think I could live well off a few million a year in interest. No stupid trips into space or other huge wastes of money for me. Take pitty on any church based group that would be foolish enough to cantact me looking for handouts. The only freebies I am tossing out would be paying off my parents debt, and giving the old man a few mill so he could finally come off the road.
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MechAg94

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2007, 02:44:35 PM »
I think what Brad is getting at is that you can invest money in things like tax free municipal bonds that generate a lower interest rate, but are tax free.  There are other means of investment that provide interest that is taxed at a reduce rate.  However, I guess it would take a tax genius to take $4 million a year and get you down out of the top tax bracket.  I am no expert so I can't say if you right or wrong on that.
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MechAg94

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2007, 03:01:25 PM »
Quote
Quote
Correct.  And by my math $25 million is more than the appx $15 million you get as a lump sum.

Has nothing to do with trust.  It's a matter of sound financial planning.

Brad
First, it has everything to do with trust.  Some people have no concept of "financial planning".  They need to either get the annual payments or get a financial institution to help them set up a permanent annuity.  Otherwise, they will blow all their money just being stupid like the guy in the article.  Of course, someone like that probably won't make a very good decisions anyway.

As for the first item above, if you look at the present day value of both sets of money, the present day value will end up being close to the same.  If you take 25 annual payments and don't spend anything, you will end up with $25 million plus the interest/investment income on the money you get when you get it.  If you take the lump sum and don't spend it, you will have that lump sum plus interest/investment income for the entire amount over the full 25 years.  The main difference between the two is in the potential interest income.  The company setting up the 25 year annuity for the state is assuming a ~5% annual growth and calculating the starting value of the annuity required to reach zero at 25 years.  If you can invest your money and make more than that, the value at 25 years will be greater than if you chose the annuity.  Looking purely at interest, it is always better to have more money in year 1 than to invest more each year afterward.

Now you are making assumptions that you can pay a lower tax rate on the income you receive from the lottery over 25 years.  You may be right, I don't know.  However, you are also losing potential interest income that you could be making over the full time period.  1) the economy could tank and leave you making 0% or losing money some years.  2) the wrong people could be in D.C. and the tax rates might go up and you might lose the tax loopholes you intend to use.  There are risks either way.  I think I would be more comfortable with lump sum myself. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2007, 03:06:16 PM »
I agree glockfan.  There are some charities that I have in mind that I would likely give money, but I don't care for it now when people come asking for money and I doubt I would feel different later.  My parents and family would be the first.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

RocketMan

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2007, 04:43:07 PM »
In taking the 25 annual payments option, one is also making a bet that the financial institutions that underwrite the annuities are going to remain sound should an extreme economic disruption occur during that period.
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MechAg94

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2007, 05:27:15 PM »
It does sort of depend on your outlook on the economy and taxes.  Judging from all the talk about universal health care, I ain't too confident.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

wingnutx

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2007, 07:20:44 PM »

MillCreek

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2007, 07:21:51 PM »
Regarding 'retirement grease', Google this phrase and Groundskeeper Willie.  One of the funnier Simpsons episodes.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2007, 07:23:15 PM »
Well, I can see that Wingnutx and I were sitting in front of our computers at the same time.....
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

wingnutx

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2007, 07:48:04 PM »
Anything with Groundskeeper Willie is good.

Bogie

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2007, 10:20:08 PM »
I buy a coupla tickets a week. If I win, a few pro-gun orgs are gonna get some donations, one college is gonna get told that it has a shooting team again, etc., etc... Kids will all get scholarships, stipends, and start-up if they need it for something, but not enough to turn into Paris Hilton clones...
 
And I'll buy a real House On Wheels, with a trailer big enough to tow a Mini and a 4-wheeler ATV, and do a lot of travelling and shooting. Some land in South Dakota, some land in South Texas...
 
Maybe buy a strip club... Maybe in West Virginia... Income producing real estate is good...


 
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Brad Johnson

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2007, 11:35:19 AM »
Quote
However, I guess it would take a tax genius to take $4 million a year and get you down out of the top tax bracket. 


Nope, just a good accountant and tax attorney. It's not about getting you out of the higher bracket, it's about minimizing your effective tax rate.

When you begin dealing with money in these amounts you can quickly find a whole host of deductions and exemptions you can use to your advantage.  It will not reduce your marginal rate, but with careful management and strategic spending you can reduce your effective rate while still maintaining and growing your portfolio.

While I'm on it, it seems there still exists some confusion between a tax deduction and an tax exemption

>Deduction - A direct reduction of the actual tax paid.  A $1 deduction takes your actual taxes and reduces them by $1.

>Exemption - A portion of your income not subject to taxation.  A $1 exemption means that $1 of your income is not taxed, reducing your paid taxes by $1 times your marginal rate.

Say your marginal rate is 30% and you have $100 deduction.  That means you actual paid taxes are reduced by $100.  If you have the same rate and a $100 exemption, your actual paid taxes are reduced by the exemption times the rate ($100 x 30% = $30).

Through a combination of strategic deductions and exemptions it's not hard to significantly reduce your effective taxes even though your gross income may have you in the highest marginal rate.  That's why the first thing to do, whatever payout method you choose, is to get good advisors lined up.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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MechAg94

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2007, 12:40:43 PM »
I understand where you're coming from Brad, but I am not sure I agree that I should take the payments.  Either way, it would be best for a winner to hit taxes and earnings as hard as possible to maximize net worth.  Even if you took a lump sum, there will be interest income to deal with in the same way.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Brad Johnson

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2007, 12:52:51 PM »

Quote
Even if you took a lump sum, there will be interest income to deal with in the same way.

Agreed.  Any idea of how dividend income is handled?  Is there a reinvestment period where the income tax is deferred or are you taxed on the gross dividend payout?

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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wingnutx

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2007, 01:28:41 PM »

Maybe buy a strip club...


I'm buying a mall that has a strip club, gun store, 24/7 diner, vintage book/record store, tattoo studio, and whatever else I can think up.

 grin

MechAg94

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2007, 04:44:59 PM »
Brad, I don't really know.  Interest or dividend income is normally treated as income, but I know there are things like tax free municipal bonds that can provide tax free income.  The problem is that those don't pay out as much either.  Rush mentioned a while back to Nancy Pelosi had all her money set up that way.  His point was the all the "tax the rich" stuff she supported wouldn't affect her because of it.  Smiley  I am sure there are other ways to off set investment income. 

Personally, I would set myself up with a base 6 figure income to live on and have the rest set up for longer term growth or retirement.  It would all depend on how much.  That is the main reason I like the lump sum.  I could get all the settled and set up at once so all I had to do is monitor things and make adjustments.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Bogie

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2007, 05:41:41 PM »
Seriously, tho... There's one thing to remember about investing.
 
Diversity is your friend. If one sector of manufacturing tanks, it won't take your entire savings. Spread it out among a variety of industries, a variety of companies within each industry, and also look at things like real estate, etc...
 
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TaxPhd

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2007, 07:23:56 PM »
Quote
However, I guess it would take a tax genius to take $4 million a year and get you down out of the top tax bracket. 


Nope, just a good accountant and tax attorney. It's not about getting you out of the higher bracket, it's about minimizing your effective tax rate.

When you begin dealing with money in these amounts you can quickly find a whole host of deductions and exemptions you can use to your advantage.  It will not reduce your marginal rate, but with careful management and strategic spending you can reduce your effective rate while still maintaining and growing your portfolio.

Sort of.  There is NOTHING than can be done about the $4 million in ordinary income (other than generating losses, and then you lose the benefit of the income).  It WILL put you in the top marginal bracket.  Yes, there may be things that can done with the rest of your finances, but for normal people, the rest of their finances are tiny compared to the $4 million.  Even very creative planning will do little to make a significant impact on the effective rate.

Quote
While I'm on it, it seems there still exists some confusion between a tax deduction and an tax exemption

>Deduction - A direct reduction of the actual tax paid.  A $1 deduction takes your actual taxes and reduces them by $1.

>Exemption - A portion of your income not subject to taxation.  A $1 exemption means that $1 of your income is not taxed, reducing your paid taxes by $1 times your marginal rate.

Say your marginal rate is 30% and you have $100 deduction.  That means you actual paid taxes are reduced by $100.  If you have the same rate and a $100 exemption, your actual paid taxes are reduced by the exemption times the rate ($100 x 30% = $30).

There is still some confusion.  What you describe as a deduction is actually a tax credit - a dollar for dollar reduction in the tax paid.  A deduction reduces the amount of income subject to tax.  Think of it as an allowable expense.  Tax exempt income is never subject to tax.  An exemption, like a dependency exemption, works the same way as a deduction.

Quote
Through a combination of strategic deductions and exemptions it's not hard to significantly reduce your effective taxes even though your gross income may have you in the highest marginal rate.  That's why the first thing to do, whatever payout method you choose, is to get good advisors lined up.

Sorry, but good accountants and attorneys are just not going to be able to keep you from taking a huge hit on that annuity.

Brad, have you done a PV calculation on that annuity?  I figure you must have in order to believe that the 25 years worth of payments are better.  I'd be interested to what you came up with and what your assumptions were.




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Bogie

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2007, 08:18:42 PM »
Idea. Charitable foundation. Headquarters in Key West, Jackson Hole, and San Diego. You're endowing college shooting teams.
 
Research, research, research, travel, travel, travel...
 
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Brad Johnson

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Re: $314.9 million Lottery Winner: Thieves "Got All My Money"
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2007, 10:04:45 AM »
Quote
There is still some confusion.  What you describe as a deduction is actually a tax credit - a dollar for dollar reduction in the tax paid.  A deduction reduces the amount of income subject to tax.  Think of it as an allowable expense.  Tax exempt income is never subject to tax.  An exemption, like a dependency exemption, works the same way as a deduction.

My bad (that's what I get for posting in a hurry!).  Thanks for catching that and correcting it before it got someone in trouble.


Quote
Brad, have you done a PV calculation on that annuity?

Haven't done a PV, but have done a FV calc on it.  Here goes...

The calcs were done presuming the above figures - $100 mil jackpot. 

Both figures use a 35% tax rate.  For the 25 yr payout this means an actual take-home of $2.6 million pr year.  For the single payout this means appx $39 million in a single lump sum (presuming the avg 60% jackpot payment amount for the single payment option).

It is presumed that the 25 yr payee will be investing half their annual payment and using the remainder for living expenses ($1.3 million).  For sake of accurate comparison is it also presumed that the the single-sum payee will be using that same amount annually ($1.3 million) for living expenses, except that to have $1.3 million to spend after income tax they will have to withdraw $2.0 million.

*DISCLAIMER* It's been a while since I was doing FV calcs.  They may well be incorrect. Someone who's up to speed on a financial calculator please verify these!!


@ 5% interest
25 yr = $62.05 million
Single payment = $36.61 million

@ 6% interest
25 yr = $71.32 million
Single payment = $57.65 million

@ 7% interest
25 yr = $82.22 million
Single payment = $85.17 million

@ 8% interest
25 yr = $95.03 million
Single payment = $120.88 million

@ 9% interest
25 yr = $110.11 million
Single payment = $166.90 million

@ 10% interest
25 yr = $127.85 million
Single payment = $225.86

Spot Analysis...

If you know you are going to be able to sustain a minimum of at least 8% interest for the next 25 yrs, the single payment method will net you a higher value in 25 yrs.  This presumes you are diligent in your spending habits and never draw more than $2 mil per year out of the portfolio.

If you are a conservative investor and budget-minded who tends to go with lower-yield (but less risky) ventures, the payout method will net you a higher value in 25 yrs.  This also presumes you are diligent and contribute at least 1/2 of the annual payment to the account. 

I tend to be very conservative in my finances.  That's why the payout method has such an appeal for me.  There is also the fact that many more conservative investments, although lower-yield, are potentially tax-free (municipal bonds, t-bills, etc).  That's a built-in ROI due to not losing 35% of the yield to income tax.

*Edited to add*

Now we get into all the ways you can use to step 'round the tax man if you opt for the 25 yr payout.  There is a whole industry geared to giving those with the means a way to retain more of their dollars at the end of the year - set-asides, exclusions, deductions, deferments, exemptions, investments, etc. - none of which is an option for the person who takes the lump sum payout (on the jackpot winnings, not the interest income).

Presume that the payee of the 25-yr method finds a way for half their annual $1.3 mil investment ($650K) to fall into a category that exempts, defers, or otherwise removes the taxability for that portion of their income.  At 35% income tax that's $227.5k recovered at the end of the year.  Yes, you pay tax on the full $4 mil when it is paid but you get to recover a big chunk of it.  Presume that you have enough willpower to reinvest that that $227.5k a year in the same account we were using above.  The value of that extra investment would add to the above numbers as follows:

@ 5%
$10.86 million
(added to above 25 yr value = $72.61 million)

@ 6%
$12.48 million
(added to above 25 yr value = $83.8 million)

@ 7%
$14.39 million
(added to above 25 yr value = $96.61 million)

@ 8%
$16.63 million
(added to above 25 yr value = $111.66 million)

@ 9%
$19.27 million
(added to above 25 yr value = $129.38 million)

@ 10%
$22.37 million
(added to above 25 yr value = $150.22 million)

Spot Analyisis

Pretty much the same as above, except the percent return for a 25 yr net advantage has increase by appx 1.

I still prefer the payouts.  I am a "structure" kind of guy, financially speaking.  I still see more advantage to having a long-term payment plan that you can use to structure your finances around.  Most of the tax deferment and exemption programs are structured around long-term revenue streams and not lump-sum windfalls (not surprising given that the programs were created by, and for, people with large, sustained revenue sources).  I see there being many more opportunities for portfolio growth and management using the long-term payout vs the lump-sum payout.

Again, just my personal opinion. 
(Side effects of this program may include fatigue, headache, dry mouth, nausea, hair loss, impotence, loose stools, irritable bowels, sensitivity to sunlight, sudden death, and long lines at the post office...)

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB