Author Topic: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely  (Read 4379 times)

Balog

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Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« on: November 07, 2009, 11:25:21 PM »
When I read that "emergency" measures would be on "indefinitely" I couldn't help but think "We've always been at war with Eurasia."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/nov/04/federal-reserve-leave-interest-rates-unchanged


Fed keeps US interest rates at emergency near-zero levels


• Extraordinary measures to remain for 'extended period'
• G20 to discuss withdrawal of taxpayer support

    * Heather Stewart and Kathryn Hopkins
    * guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 4 November 2009 20.35 GMT


The Federal Reserve tonight reaffirmed its pledge to keep interest rates at their unprecedented low for an "extended period" as the US economy clambers out of the deepest recession in a generation.

After its policy meeting in New York, the Fed's governors said there were signs that economic activity had continued to pick up over the past month, but they opted to keep borrowing costs unchanged at 0-0.25%, as they waited for clear evidence of recovery.

"Household spending appears to be expanding but remains constrained by ongoing job losses, sluggish income growth, lower housing wealth and tight credit," the Fed's open market committee said in a statement.

The US economy expanded at a healthy 3.5% annual rate in the third quarter of the year, helping to boost the markets' confidence about an upturn, but chairman Ben Bernanke and his colleagues said they still believed there was little risk of inflation taking hold.

"With substantial resource slack likely to continue to dampen cost pressures and with longer-term inflation expectations stable, the committee expects that inflation will remain subdued for some time," they said, confounding some analysts' predictions that the Fed would start to signal an "exit strategy" from the extraordinary support measures of the past 18 months.

The Fed also announced it would trim by $25bn, to $175bn, the amount it will spend on buying so-called "agency debt" – loans from state-owned mortgage lenders Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac – as part of the emergency recession-busting policy Bernanke has referred to as "credit easing".

The Fed has already bought $300bn of treasury bills and last night reaffirmed its plan to spend $1.25bn on mortgage-backed securities by next March, in an effort to kick-start credit and enable firms and families to borrow again. But there are growing concerns that this scattergun approach may be creating bubbles in some markets.

Gold prices hit a new record above $1,091 yesterday, boosted by a decision by the Indian central bank on Tuesday to buy more than £4bn of bullion from the International Monetary Fund. Gold prices have soared as investors seek alternative "safe haven" assets to the waning dollar.

The Fed's cautious approach came as G20 finance ministers prepared to meet in St Andrew's, Scotland tomorrow for a two-day summit at which they will discuss how and when to withdraw the huge taxpayer support they have given their economies over the past two years.

Treasury sources said yesterday that any statement from the weekend meeting was likely to retain the promise made at the leaders' summit in Pittsburgh in September to keep emergency support in place for as long as is necessary. "We are not yet back to trend growth levels. I expect we will have the same language as in Pittsburgh, that the current support measures need to be kept in place until recovery is well secured."

Alistair Darling, the chancellor, hopes to move discussions on to drawing up an international "framework for growth", in which each country would play its part in building a stronger world economy, instead of dwelling on the UK's failure to escape recession.

Speaking in Johannesburg, the US deputy treasury secretary, Neal Wolin, said: "There will be a set of discussions about how we're going to sequence all this as governments think about moving from a period of stress and so forth to a period that's steadier and more regularised and as some of these extraordinary measures which the G20 countries took become less necessary."

He made it clear the White House believes it is too early to take the US economy off life-support. "There's still a need … – and this will be another focus – to continue to be pushing toward stimulus in the near term," he said.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2009, 07:20:04 PM »
I'm not sure "extended period" means the same thing as "indefinitely".

Bigjake

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2009, 07:58:23 PM »
When it all crashes, the Fed can wave their collective arms all they want and it won't matter...

RocketMan

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2009, 10:12:29 PM »
When it all crashes, the Fed can wave their collective arms all they want and it won't matter...

Pretty much.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

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Balog

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2009, 10:17:29 PM »
Indefinitely means without a defined ending point. When they say extended time with no definition of what that time might be...
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2009, 11:03:16 PM »
They have defined when these interests rates will end.  The simplified definition is "after recovery firmly takes hold, when they're no longer needed".  Other speeches and statements by Fed personnel have given greater guidance and specificity as to just what this means.  The UK Times article doesn't mention them, but the conditions and circumstances are generally known.

Saying it's "indefinite" implies that they don't know when it'll end.  Comparing it to the 1984 never ending wars inmplies that it likely will never end.  I believe both are false, or at least highly misleading.

Balog

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2009, 11:08:38 PM »
I don't think it is misleading, even if it is not a perfect analogy. The exact analogy for 1984's eternal war is of course the War on Drugs/Terror/Poverty.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2009, 11:11:33 PM »
The war on terror will end someday.  It'll likely go out with a whimper, without any fanfare.  But it'll draw to a close.

The other two won't end.

Balog

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2009, 11:13:51 PM »
All three have been around since the dawn of recorded human history, and I don't see them ending any time soon. Now, if we had the balls to declare war on radical Islam we might have had a better chance of eliminating it, but that would required some actions I think most in America don't have the stomach for.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2009, 11:14:32 PM »
Hmm.  Ok.  I guess I take a narrower definition of those wars.

Balog

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2009, 11:16:13 PM »
Hmm.  Ok.  I guess I take a narrower definition of those wars.

Wait, which wars? I was thinking we agreed on Drugs/Poverty but not Terror. Is that plural unintentional?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2009, 11:33:00 PM »
Eh?

My understanding of the terms has the War on Drugs, War on Pverty, and War on Terror all beginning sometime in the last half century.  More or less.  Yours seems to place them as something that's ben around as long as people have.

Balog

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2009, 11:35:23 PM »
No, I merely meant that drug use, poverty, and terrorism have all been around forever. And many .gov's have tried to "fight" against them. But yeah, America's "declaring war on X" is a relatively new development.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2009, 12:09:35 AM »
They have defined when these interests rates will end.  The simplified definition is "after recovery firmly takes hold, when they're no longer needed".  Other speeches and statements by Fed personnel have given greater guidance and specificity as to just what this means.  The UK Times article doesn't mention them, but the conditions and circumstances are generally known.

Saying it's "indefinite" implies that they don't know when it'll end.  Comparing it to the 1984 never ending wars inmplies that it likely will never end.  I believe both are false, or at least highly misleading.

Need I remind you of the dozens of emergency economic measures taken by Western governments in the two Great Wars that exist to this day?
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KD5NRH

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2009, 06:53:10 AM »
They have defined when these interests rates will end.  The simplified definition is "after recovery firmly takes hold, when they're no longer needed".

You know, they've made similar statements about various taxes.  Ever noticed any of those going away?


roo_ster

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2009, 07:27:27 AM »
Need I remind you of the dozens of emergency economic measures taken by Western governments in the two Great Wars that exist to this day?

Income tax withholding, for one.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2009, 09:10:45 AM »
Ok.  So let's take some predictions. 

Who here thinks 0% interest rates will last forever?

RocketMan

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2009, 08:46:29 PM »
My prediction:
The effectively zero interest rates will not last forever, but they will last too long.  I expect some serious inflation to develop before the Fed starts pulling some of that liquidity.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2009, 09:05:17 PM »
They want inflation.  Inflation could be a good thing right now.  (To a point.)

So the question is, if the Fed keeps rates long enough to generate some true inflation, would that be holding rates too low too long?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 09:09:08 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

RocketMan

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2009, 10:57:50 PM »
I expect inflation that would go way beyond anything good.  Perhaps way past what happened at the end of the peanut farmer's watch.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Balog

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2009, 01:04:34 AM »
I think HTG and RM are using different definitions of inflation in this argument.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2009, 03:56:32 AM »
Ok.  So let's take some predictions. 

Who here thinks 0% interest rates will last forever?

I don't. But then I don't expect the Fed to last forever.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

RocketMan

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2009, 07:33:50 AM »
I think HTG and RM are using different definitions of inflation in this argument.

Methinks you are correct, sir.  Although it is a gentlemanly argument.   =)
I suspect we can agree that things are economically delicate at this stage, and that the administration will probably not make the right moves, whatever their motivations.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2009, 12:36:54 PM »
Now I'm getting confused .  Are we talking about the administration or the Fed (Barry or Ben) here?

I expect the administration to continue making bad moves.  

I expect the Fed to do things that are beneficial in the short term.  They will keep banking running, even if not well.  They will spur economic activity, compared against what would have happened if they hadn't acted.  Those things may (or may not) prove to be harmful in the long term.  And "beneficial" vs "harmful" in this context is relative, in that there are always two sides to each trade.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 12:41:53 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

RaspberrySurprise

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Re: Fed holds rates at "emergency" levels indefinitely
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2009, 01:58:26 PM »
Why is Barney Frank arguing with a smily face? I'm so confused.
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