Saving Private Ryan

[Jocassee]

I watched this movie for the first time tonight (hold the disparaging remarks). What I lost in time, I think I made up for in maturity and being able to process the film to it's fullest extent.

Captain Miller's final words hold the key to this movie. I cannot help but hearing his command--"Earn this"--echoing across the chasm between the greatest generation and ours, asking us to cherish, and in our turn protect, what was so faithfully defended. And as I put the question to myself: "Have we earned it?" I know in my heart the answer is that no, we have not.

God, history, and Captain Miller are going to judge us harshly.

[Balog]

The "Greatest Generation" failed miserably in almost every way. They beat the Nazis, yes. But they gave hundreds of millions of people to Stalin to brutally oppress, raised probably the most selfish and entitled generation in American history, and set about destroying every good thing they were given. What is the point of fighting off the external enemy only to bring about your own destruction via the internal?

[Jocassee]

The "Greatest Generation" failed miserably in almost every way. They beat the Nazis, yes. But they gave hundreds of millions of people to Stalin to brutally oppress, raised probably the most selfish and entitled generation in American history, and set about destroying every good thing they were given. What is the point of fighting off the external enemy only to bring about your own destruction via the internal?

That the politicians screwed up in their handling of Stalin in no way takes away from the honor of those who defeated the Nazis.

I can't speak to the generation that they in turn raised, but you can only blame parents for the sins of their children up to a certain point.

It was a damn good movie with an important challenge at the end. The message holds.

[roo_ster]

SPR is a great movie about World War II The War to Save Russian Communism.

[AJ Dual]

The whole "The Last Good War" aspect of WWII is to a great degree a product of rose-colored hindsight. History has always been more complicated than that.

There's been articles lifted from the post-war occupation of Germany where someone replaced "Germany" with Iraq, complaining about mismanagement, continued insurgent attacks etc. And with a draft, I'm sure the proportion of goldbricking, ****-bird soldiers was probably a lot higher in WWII than it is with our all-volunteer professional military of today... My paternal grandfather had some sort of questionable hernia issue... and spent WWII as a pharmacists assistant at an Army base in Arizona. My maternal grandfather quit the U.S. Naval Academy because he was er... the type who "didn't deal well with authority", and wound up an officer in the Merchant Marine. (although one can argue he was "brave" as a sitting duck for subs, and did see action not too far away around the Philippines and other battles, and ships in his convoys were attacked at times...) My step-maternal grandfather drove a truck in the U.K. the entire war, and was purposely not allowed anywhere near continental Europe because he was a "troublemaker". No one says, but I think he may have been into black-market luxuries, like tobacco and alcohol over there...

For every guy who spilled his guts at Normandy, or pulled a buddy out of a foxhole and carried him to safety, there were a dozen guys who just turned wrenches, stacked boxes, shuffled paper, or, God forbid, screwed around, in relative safety

Other random, but related thoughts...

There was similar issues surrounding the Spanish American war, not to mention the whole "manufactured war" angle to it with Hearst etc. just like there are those who complain the same about Iraq and Afghanistan today.

The 1920's was a time of self-indulgent debauchery in many ways. The Great Depression of the 1930's was exacerbated and lengthened greatly by FDR's liberal/socialist policies, much like Obama's and the Democrat's Keynesian efforts now.

I don't want to denigrate the sacrifice or accomplishments of the WWII generation, however, you have to take it with a HUGE grain of salt, and keep the perspective that "The more things change, the more they stay the same". I think someone who's been raised in the latter 20th century and early 21st and was miraculously transported back to WWII would be shocked.

And of course, there is all the "dirty politics" of the times, like the blind-eye given the Soviets, when some estimates have Stalin killing 10x the civilians Hitler ever did. Our own internment of Japanese-Americans etc..

So I don't fear quite so much for the future, or the present as some. My gut tells me it's only 5% (if that) "things/people are actually worse", and 95% (or more) of "Same ****, different decade." 

[grampster]

Sometimes it's quite amusing to read the ramblings and musings of the young.

[Jocassee]

Sometimes it's quite amusing to read the ramblings and musings of the young.

C'mon Gramps...you can't lead out like that and leave us hangin'!

[grampster]

Sure I can.

I'll just offer this:  Being there vs reading or hearing about it, sometimes bears not much resemblance to each other.  That's good advice pretty much across the board that is not much paid attention to.

[lee n. field]

The 1920's was a time of self-indulgent debauchery in many ways.

I'm reading the Heinlein biography right now, on his Annapolis and Navy days.  Yup.  Those were different times than we sometimes think.

[Scout26]

Aj wha tyou say is true.  There were many more soldiers then and you had to be a real *expletive deleted*it-bird to end up in jail or kicked out.  WWII was the closest we've ever come to Starship Troopers in that even the *expletive deleted*it-birds still had some honor.

My parents are in their 80's. They grew up in the depression.  My mother in a dirt poor farm town in south/central Illinois (Her dad was an entrepreneur of several failed businesses and worked as a store clerk and farm hand to feed their family, my grandmother took in wash and made quilts and crocheted.)  My dad's father was killed on the Railroad in 1928 when my dad was 3.  Leaving behind a wife and 3 kids (8, 5 and 3 years old) in Indianapolis.  His mom worked and the kids pretty much did too.  My dad talks about walking home from school along the railroad tracks looking for coal, so they could have heat in the winter.

And the men in my family "fought" WWII.  Some in Europe, some in the Pacific.  One never getting farther than Great Lakes Naval Base north of Chicago and another Uncle that didn't get to Europe until 1947, he was actually in Baumholder for 7-8 months before he was rotated home and discharged.

They never looked at each as "you were less than/more than me because...." They all served, went to the VFW/American Legion and got drunk together, never talked  about the war other then the usual Army vs Navy vs Marines rivalry stuff.

But I know that when I came home from Basic and we stopped in my mom's home town in southern Illiinois, there were looks that I got from my Uncles (that I had also gotten from my dad when my folks came to watch my graduation at Ft. Leonard Wood), that I had entered a new "club", moved to a different level, was I not one of the many kids/cousins/nieces/nephews anymore.  It's hard to describe.

And yes, some parents after growing up in the depression and witnessing WWII did everything they could so their children wouldn't have to survive that (and for many kids of the depression/WWII it was many times survive in the truest sense of the word.)    

Some parents did a grreat job.  (Like mine, 4 of their 5 boys are veterans, Three Vietnam era- two that went and one that served in the Atlantic Fleet).  All have worked all our lives have all achieved the American Dream.  We have a lawyer, Corp VP of Sales, a Sales Manager, two small business owners (Printing company, Golf Course Architect), Muncie City Manager (they want him to run for Mayor), and me, who was a Corporate Logistics Manager.  Other then traffic tickets, not one has ever been to jail or even arrested.  We've had or share of personal life drama, in that all but one of us have had a marriage go ka-boom. But we've all picked and moved on to bigger and better.

And once a month I go and spend a extended weekend with my folks.  And in doing I get a chance to really listen and hear the stories of their lives.  And it shows in how they raised us.  Despite all they were up against they did one helluva job instilling ethics, values and lessons in all of us.  Ethics, values and lessons that I'm working hard to instill in my kids.  

I don't think all the fault of the 60's generation can be blamed on the parents nor solely on the kids.  It was both.  Kids that rebelled and rejected everything the parents taught and kids that were "coddled", for lack of a better word, and "encouraged/allowed" to become hippies. (remember there were lots of Commies in the '30's and 40's).   And we are suffering as a nation for that.  

Communism/Socialism/Fascism/Liberalism are all sides of the same die.  And steps on the same slippery slope. I know my dad is highly pissed at the state of our country.  But other than railing at his TV, can't do much more about it.  

I was thinking about something similar to this last night, but I think it needs it's own thread.  I'm rambling.

[Balog]

That the politicians screwed up in their handling of Stalin in no way takes away from the honor of those who defeated the Nazis.

I can't speak to the generation that they in turn raised, but you can only blame parents for the sins of their children up to a certain point.

It was a damn good movie with an important challenge at the end. The message holds.

You're a very naive and romantic young man.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

SPR had a damn fine ending.

And of course, there is all the "dirty politics" of the times, like the blind-eye given the Soviets, when some estimates have Stalin killing 10x the civilians Hitler ever did.

The UK was responsible for a significant amount of the Soviet takeover, especially the Foreign Office. The (American) OSS was operating a few Jedburgh teams in Yugoslavia, where there were communist and non-communist rebels in play in roughly equal numbers. The OSS was willing to help anyone not on Hitler's side, and thus provided similar measures of help for both groups. The British FO pitched a fit, and demanded that no support or assistance be given to the non-communists (the British had jurisdiction over operations in some countries, the US in others). As a result, all the weapons, supplies, and training thereafter fell to the communists - which provided them a distinct upper hand when Hitler's people were gone. That is how Tito came to power.
Greece was in a similar situation, with multiple rebel groups. Equal support, more or less, was given there - and post-war, the communists were thrown out. Yugoslavia never got that chance.

[Balog]

Sure I can.

I'll just offer this:  Being there vs reading or hearing about it, sometimes bears not much resemblance to each other.  That's good advice pretty much across the board that is not much paid attention to.

This is true. It's not clear what interpretation you're taking away from this observation (things really weren't as great as they were cracked up to be, or anyone who doubts the awesomeness because of mere facts is wrong) so I'll just observe that personal experience of a larger event is highly limited and that age has its own filters on memory.

[grampster]

This is true. It's not clear what interpretation you're taking away from this observation (things really weren't as great as they were cracked up to be, or anyone who doubts the awesomeness because of mere facts is wrong) so I'll just observe that personal experience of a larger event is highly limited and that age has its own filters on memory.

Your comments are valid.  The old adage that "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it."(Santana or Santana's misquote of an Edmund Burke comment) is a classic statement about why history is such an important element in the educational process.  Probably why leftists have denigrated history and/or tried to revise it is because in the arrogance of their religion of "self", they refuse to understand that those who disagree with their point of view may not be a stupid as they think.  Trouble is that rather than debate, they more often attack.

On the other hand, the winners get to write the history.  So even then we get a skewed point of view in some ways.  Some historical events are so monumental, though, that they stand on their own regardless of who is telling the story, at least until they are so long ago, they no longer are self evident and we're back to the spoken and written "record".

Ecclesiastes has the final word in my view. 

[Jocassee]

You're a very naive and romantic young man.

I'm not even going to honor that with a response.

[Balog]

I'm not even going to honor that with a response.

No need to get fussy, just an observation. I'm pretty sure a lot of folks who've read your posts for a while would agree. And much like ignorance, naivete and romanticism are (or can be) temporary conditions.

[roo_ster]

SPR had a damn fine ending.
The UK was responsible for a significant amount of the Soviet takeover, especially the Foreign Office. The (American) OSS was operating a few Jedburgh teams in Yugoslavia, where there were communist and non-communist rebels in play in roughly equal numbers. The OSS was willing to help anyone not on Hitler's side, and thus provided similar measures of help for both groups. The British FO pitched a fit, and demanded that no support or assistance be given to the non-communists (the British had jurisdiction over operations in some countries, the US in others). As a result, all the weapons, supplies, and training thereafter fell to the communists - which provided them a distinct upper hand when Hitler's people were gone. That is how Tito came to power.
Greece was in a similar situation, with multiple rebel groups. Equal support, more or less, was given there - and post-war, the communists were thrown out. Yugoslavia never got that chance.

My military history prof was one of those yanks in Yugo.  He was not in favor of our intervention in Yugoslavia.  He had few kind words for our foreign policy establishment.

[Scout26]

While I agree that our overall strategy may not have been ideal, and the leftist threat has not been adequately either described or defeated, I will say this:


Balog,

Your ass is showing.

 

[Balog]

While I agree that our overall strategy may not have been ideal, and the leftist threat has not been adequately either described or defeated, I will say this:


Balog,

Your ass is showing.

 

 

[Scout26]

The "Greatest Generation" failed miserably in almost every way. They beat the Nazis, yes. But they gave hundreds of millions of people to Stalin to brutally oppress, raised probably the most selfish and entitled generation in American history, and set about destroying every good thing they were given. What is the point of fighting off the external enemy only to bring about your own destruction via the internal?

I'm insulted for my Family; my Parents, Aunts, Uncles, most of the other folks that I know from that generation.
 

[Balog]

Because obviously talking about the general trends of a generation speaks directly to every single member of that generation...

[Jocassee]

edit, double post

[Jocassee]

This VERY timely article addresses both sides of the conversation we had today.

http://pajamasmedia.com/lifestyle/2011/09/22/the-truth-about-the-greatest-generation/5/

One of the things that has most impressed me about the rising generation is the way in which so many Millennials have sought to look over the heads of Generation Narcissus and seek to connect with the World War II generation as models for how to be grownups.

I identify with that remark--not because of lack of competent adult leadership in my own life so much as a casting back into history, searching for the most recent undeniably great and good thing my generation can learn from.

Let’s be honest: not everyone in that generation was “great.”

Next week we’ll look at the worst of the “greatest.”

I will be looking forward to the next installment.

[Lee]

I'm insulted for my Family; my Parents, Aunts, Uncles, most of the other folks that I know from that generation.
 angry angry angry angry

Ditto here.  The very notion that the US had any further obligation to protect the world from the communists is ridiculous.  I'm amazed that someone could even go there considering the sacrifices every family (at every level) made to defeat the Axis powers.  So Balog - you think they should of just ponied up a bit more and invaded Russia? Where were you and your family living then?  What were they doing for world peace/domination?  Your comments really baffle me.  I'm thinking they were probably living under, and submitting to, one the of the evil ones.
I won't even go into the accomplishments achieved after the war ...and since.   

[Perd Hapley]

I'm taking a class on post-war Europe right now. It was a bad time to be a European. The place was trashed and deeply in debt, with much of the male population dead, wounded or POWed. It's hard to imagine they would have had much stomach for taking on the USSR. The Germans tried that, and paid for it.