Author Topic: Breaking the bad news slowly  (Read 3066 times)

LAK

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Breaking the bad news slowly
« on: December 20, 2006, 02:27:57 AM »
Here comes China .. there goes NATO
Quote
The United States will cease to be the lone superpower within thirteen years, and both the European Union and Britain will have to accept that the transatlantic strategic partnership will no longer work
We now see Prof. Victor Bulmer-Thomas, director of the Royal Institute of International Affairs (parent to the "our" Council on Foreign Relations) breaking the bad news; China is going to be a superpower (not news to me and many others even ten years ago). And whoops; this is going to change our relationship with Europa and "the [NATO] will no longer work".

I like the way the EU and Britain are addressed separately here - as if London is some latecomer to the eurostate Wink

The EU has had it's own plans for a military force since inception, and developement of this has been going on steadily under the public radar here at home of the Eurocorps. I have been following this for a number of years now and bring it up every now and then on a forum or two:

http://www.eurocorps.org/

Another one those significant subjects that CNN and FOX will report on one day down the road and present it as if it has just suddenly happened - something "new".......

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  http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Walker_World_Here_Comes_China_Warns_UK_999.html

Walker's World: Here Comes China, Warns U.K.

Prof. Victor Bulmer-Thomas, director of the Royal Institute of International Affairs.
by Martin Walker
UPI Editor Emeritus
London (UPI) Dec 18, 2006

The United States will cease to be the lone superpower within thirteen years, and both the European Union and Britain will have to accept that the transatlantic strategic partnership will no longer work. This is the shock prediction of one of the top figures of the British foreign policy establishment.
In his farewell address as director of the Royal Institute of International Affairs, known as Chatham House after its prestigious address in London's plush St. James district, Prof. Victor Bulmer-Thomas said that the swift emergence of China as the second megapower would transform the world's strategic map.

"Just as the world is currently shaped to a large extent by the international priorities of the United States, so it will be shaped to a significant degree by the international priorities of the two megapowers in 2020," he told a blue ribbon audience of British officials and politicians and international diplomats.

China will also seek to curb and to reduce American influence in the Asia-Pacific region, he predicted, using all available non-military tools such as trade deals, soft loans, and strategic investments. He also expected China to demonstrate "a more aggressive approach to the Taiwan issue."

"A period of strategic rivalry between the United States and China while this process is underway can be confidently predicted. However, this is not likely to lead to open conflict," he stressed. "The economic ties between the two countries will be close and each country will have a strong stake in the economic success of the other. There will also be areas of cooperation, notably in tackling proliferation as well as developing and transferring technology to combat greenhouse gas emissions. Yet it is unrealistic to imagine that the United States will not resist strongly the erosion of its privileged status -- particularly when the new megapower is so fundamentally opposed to U.S. values in religion and personal freedom."

Prof. Bulmer-Thomas' prediction that Britain and Europe would have to reconsider their traditional ties to the United States have caused a flurry of concern and speculation in European diplomatic circles, which are still digesting the imminent end of Prime Minister Tony Blair's political career after the Iraq misadventure.

"Both the U.K. and the EU have to recognize that the old idea of a strategic partnership with the United States -- or special relationship in the case of the U.K. -- to solve global problems will not work in a world of two megapowers. It may still be true that most global problems will not have a solution without the United States, but that will also be true of China. A strategic partnership with the United States that ignores China will not be effective, but a strategic partnership with both countries is unrealistic," the Chatham House director added.

Bulmer-Thomas, who has run Chatham House for the past five years and whose tenure was shaped by the 9/11 terrorist attack and its aftermath, warned that the recent American primacy would no longer be tenable. He said that U.S. indebtedness and low savings rate would erode its economic position, and "the long-term liabilities in health spending and social security will make it very difficult for the U.S. to match the growth of the world economy, leading to a decline in its global share of GDP."

So while the United States would remain the world's largest economy in dollar terms it would probably be matched or overtaken by China as a trading nation, and in GDP as measured by purchasing power parity. The United States would probably keep its military and technological lead with an annual defense budget of over $700 billion, and would remain a megapower in 2020. However, if China continues the double-digit annual growth in its defense budget it will be spending some $400 billion a year by 2020, double the European defense spending and four times as much as Russia.

But the United States has been damaged psychologically by the recent setbacks in Iraq. One key component of superpower status is public and political support for the investment of the resources required to sustain that position, and that is now in question. The U.S. belief in itself and its special role "has been sharply eroded as a result of the war in Iraq and other related policies such as the abuse of prisoners in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.

"There is no doubt that self-belief has taken a sharp knock under the Bush presidency and the traumas of Iraq and Afghanistan will weigh heavily on the U.S. electorate for several years yet. The notion of the United States as 'a force for good in the world' will not be as widely accepted as before. Isolation is not an option for the United States, but a more neo-realist approach to international affairs certainly is," he noted.

China by contrast has abundant belief in itself and its own special role in the world, and is fast acquiring the financial resources to match the United States as a megapower. China will soon be the world's largest holder of foreign exchange reserves, he predicted, and "will strenuously seek to convert a significant part of its international financial assets into real assets though strategic overseas purchases. This will give it a global presence and the book value of Chinese inward investment will exceed that of most other countries in those developing countries that allow foreign investment access to natural resources."

China will grow dramatically in global strategic reach and political power, and will add to its current veto in the United Nations Security Council with a bigger share of votes in those international organizations like the International Monetary Fund and World Bank where voting is determined by economic weight. By 2020 it will have developed "a range of public policy instruments to promote its national interests and these will include sticks as well as carrots. As the largest importer in the world, China will have immense leverage over those countries or regions interested in signing Preferential Trade Agreements. At the same time, China will not hesitate to use sticks to achieve its interests."

Europe would have to adjust to these new realities, he went on, and learn to coordinate its international policies accordingly to defend its own interests, since neither the United States nor China, engaged in their rivalry, are likely to seek to strengthen international institutions or the United Nations.

"The EU has to speak with one voice in international forums and that requires a change in past practice by Britain and other member states," he urged. "The obvious starting point is the International Financial Institutions, where the multiplicity of EU votes needs to be replaced by a single EU representative. This will be very painful for the United Kingdom, but there is really no choice unless we are prepared to see Britain and the EU becoming less and less influential on the international stage. Ultimately, the same will need to happen in the U.N. Security Council, but that will take longer."

Source: United Press International
Related Links
Royal Institute of International Affairs
Learn about the Superpowers of the 21st Century at SpaceWar.com

SUPERPOWERS
New US Black Sea Policy Urged
 Washington DC (UPI) Dec 18, 2006
The United States needs a new comprehensive strategy to deal with the Black Sea region, a new report from the Heritage Foundation, a conservative Washington think tank, says. The new report, by Heritage energy and Eurasia expert Ariel Cohen and Conway Irwin, a writer on energy affairs, urged the Bush administration to "pursue a circumspect, balanced, and realistic strategy to enhance the security and stability of the Black Sea basin."
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Leatherneck

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2006, 03:52:32 AM »
Interesting opinions from a well-credentialed gentleman.

I don't think much of the liklihood that--even combining Europe's voices into a single megavote, assuming that could even happen--the EU will exert as much influence as either the U.S or China.

I do wish we would start making it clear to Taiwan that, barring an outright military invasion, we will not go to war over their sovereignity. A Hong Kong-like solution would seem to be in everyone's best interest. Taiwan should start accomodating the idea and arrange the best terms possible for them.

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richyoung

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2006, 04:36:07 AM »
I do wish we would start making it clear to Taiwan that, barring an outright military invasion, we will not go to war over their sovereignity.

..but Kuwait, going to war over THEIR sovereignity is just fine?  Whatever happened to that "right to self-determination" noise we used to make during the Cold War?

Quote
A Hong Kong-like solution would seem to be in everyone's best interest.


The Red's interests, yes.  What, pray tell, do the Taiwanese get for giving up their freedom?

Quote
Taiwan should start accomodating the idea and arrange the best terms possible for them.

TC

Actually, Taiwan has little to worry about.  They bought a "research" reactor back in the early '70s - wanna guess what kind of "research" they've been doing for 30 years?  Plus the Chinese navy is a joke - despite buying numerous clapped-out Western carriers, they still don't have a working one of their own - a handful of diesel-electric boats could absolutely decimate any invasion fleet, plus the the Taiwan air force has better gear than the Red's do.  The PeeReps will make angry noises, but can do little - they would already have done otherwise if they could.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2006, 04:48:11 AM »
I do wish we would start making it clear to Taiwan that, barring an outright military invasion, we will not go to war over their sovereignity.

..but Kuwait, going to war over THEIR sovereignity is just fine? 

I can't believe you're comparing Saddam's military with that of China. 
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The Rabbi

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2006, 04:51:00 AM »
The Euros are good at talking, period.  They have no interest in or will to flex any military muscle.  Their economies stink, beset with high unemployment and high taxes and their productivity is lousy.  There is a reason that the E.Europeans line up more with the U.S. than old Europe.
China has been an emerging superpower for about as long as I have been alive.  History is that when there is one superpower, the other powers band together to offset them.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2006, 04:52:43 AM »
With my four thousand posts, can I declare myself a super-power? 
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The Rabbi

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2006, 04:56:37 AM »
With my four thousand posts, can I declare myself a super-power? 

Sure.
Go into any bathroom after I'm done and I'll be declared a superpower too.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2006, 05:01:52 AM »
Ick.  I now understand your long-lived sig line.   undecided
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richyoung

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2006, 10:21:38 AM »
I do wish we would start making it clear to Taiwan that, barring an outright military invasion, we will not go to war over their sovereignity.

..but Kuwait, going to war over THEIR sovereignity is just fine? 

I can't believe you're comparing Saddam's military with that of China. 

...since we are discussing an invasion across the Straights of Taiwan, the proper comparo is the PeeReps navy and AF vs. the US Navy, backed up by the USAf and the military of Taiwan - which makes Saddam VS the coalition look like a fair fight.
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lee n. field

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2006, 02:12:21 PM »
This will drive the dispensationalist end times speculators (you-all have seen the Left Behind books?  that stuff.) frantic.
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 05:10:45 PM »
China isn't going to remain communist much longer.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

drewtam

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2006, 05:44:56 PM »
Its hardly communist now.

Except for the political and religious oppression, China has none of the communist/socialist economics policies.

Plus most Chinese like Americans and America.
Many chinese believe the general public would not be able to handle choosing thier own government, and that we are capable because of our education.
Boy, have we got them fooled.
I try to explain to them its just the opposite, that its has more to do designing a robust 'system'.


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lupinus

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2006, 08:57:49 PM »
the only real thing china has going for it is numbers and numbers while helpful are rarely enough to win a fight.  They are enough to be worried about but not enough to be feared without some serious gearing up.
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LAK

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2006, 11:53:59 PM »
Leatherneck
Quote
I don't think much of the liklihood that--even combining Europe's voices into a single megavote, assuming that could even happen--the EU will exert as much influence as either the U.S or China.
This seems to be a popular view. The EU, with it's current membership, is set to overtake the North American market in terms of economic output and growth very soon.

There is enormous investment underway there; including major contributions from europe's heaviest hitters in the auto market etc. Very cheap labor combined with civilized old european culture freed from the oppression of the old SU. Some examples of what they are capable of in both quality and marketability, look at the commercial small arms from CZ etc coming into this country. Look at some of the very competatively priced high end guns coming from that part of the world.

Many people are grossly underestimating what the EU is capable of becoming both economically and militarily. And underneath the shell governments of socialism and inefficency, there is more private wealth and investment capital in Europe than anywhere else in the world.

The eurocorps was not some exercize in PR or pursuit to give some old french and german generals something to do on weekends - it was started early  enough to be fully operational when the NATO alliance had served it's purpose. When europe shrugs us off it will be as effective an army as any other major power.

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Leatherneck

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2006, 02:12:37 AM »
Quote
Many people are grossly underestimating what the EU is capable of becoming both economically and militarily. And underneath the shell governments of socialism and inefficency, there is more private wealth and investment capital in Europe than anywhere else in the world.
Well, perhaps I'm guilty as charged, but I don't see the EU potential, given the rampant social dysfunction all over Europe at present. As Europe's "greatest generation" dies out, they're being replaced by a generation that neither identifies themselves as [insert EU country of choice] citizens, but merely want to freeload on whatever productive populace remains. Perhaps that could, itself, become the catalyst of fundamental change, but absent a firebrand like a certain Austrian seventy years ago, I see no sign of that. No, I believe China and the U.S. are the powers that really matter for the foreseeable future.

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thebaldguy

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2006, 02:36:05 PM »
I studied China in my Poli Sci classes 15 years ago. I never thought they would be where they are today. I never thought so many of our manufacturing jobs would go to China either.

French G.

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2006, 07:22:08 PM »
The EU will end up on the scrap heap of history, right next to the League of Nations, the Monroe Doctrine(sadly) and the UN (hopefully). The Euros will not live in harmony forever, varying national tolerance for Europe's massive immigration and assimilation problems will be a likely wedge. And finally, I bet Europe will want some NATO style cooperation with us once China turns its army north. Yeah I know that was a Tom Clancy novel, but so was flying an airplane into the Capitol building.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2006, 07:53:16 PM »
China isn't going to remain communist much longer.
Worse is the fact that we aren't going to remain capitalist much longer.

LAK

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2006, 11:47:04 PM »
Quote
The EU will end up on the scrap heap of history
True. Eventually.

No doubt the African Union, the North American Union, and the others will also. Eventually. In the meantime and for as long as they last they are going to be as oppressive and brutal as the others like them throughout history.

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Leatherneck

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2006, 02:54:57 AM »
I just don't see much economic, scientific, or military potential in Europe right now. And I don't think trans-european harmony is in the cards any more than peace in the Middle East is. Technology-wise, the comers are China and India. What puzzles me is the future role for the USA. Right now, the vast majority of R&D here is military-oriented. Is that a good long-term situaion? I don't know.

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Waitone

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2006, 01:56:29 PM »
As long as the US is a debtor nation with a vengence we are destined to decline.  Play all the economic games you want but at the end of the day debt in excess is a moral problem.  We are saturated with debt.  Our currency has no value until debt is incurred.  Loan someone a little money and you've got a business relationship.  Loan someone too much money and you've got a partner.  China is a competitor pure and simple.  The biggest gun they have is one trillion dollars in our debt they hold.  Change it out of the dollar and into something else are we are in deep yogurt.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2006, 02:54:49 PM »
As long as the US is a debtor nation with a vengence we are destined to decline.  Play all the economic games you want but at the end of the day debt in excess is a moral problem.  We are saturated with debt.  Our currency has no value until debt is incurred.  Loan someone a little money and you've got a business relationship.  Loan someone too much money and you've got a partner.  China is a competitor pure and simple.  The biggest gun they have is one trillion dollars in our debt they hold.  Change it out of the dollar and into something else are we are in deep yogurt.

I agree that our debt and trade deficit are "double-pluss ungood" for sure, however, it's a two-way street. The reality of the situation is that the U.S. and China have each other by the "short and curlies". Destroying our economy by calling in all the T-notes they hold, or by dumping them on the market would screw them over just as badly. They'd lose money on that straight off, but for a double whammy, the U.S. would stop importing all their cheap crap.

Then as large portions of the world had domino recessions from the U.S. fallout, the rest of the world market would stop buying Chinese exports too.

So China's hold on us is not really just a potential battle in "economic warfare" so much as it is an "economic doomsday device", for everybody. And we've got a finger on the same button. We could always default too.

China's three biggest internal problems are the disparity between the industrial cities and ports and the third-world countryside. The only "solution" China has for now is to mask the problem by keeping up the furious economic pace with manufacturing. The second is if the industrialization "works", they're going to have to figure out how to support a Billion+ population at a nearly, if not, first-world level of consumption and lifestyle. It also means that eventualy they'll lose thier biggest advantage as the population refuses to work for slave-wages anymore. And that feeds into the third, China has resource problems. Deforestation, drought, erosion, and they are a massive importer of raw materials to support the industrialization. That's why the oil and metal markets are running so high right now.

I'm not saying that it's not "bad", but it's easy to overlook that China's in almost as much "trouble" as we are, just on the other end of the stick.





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Waitone

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2006, 02:00:18 AM »
One of the scariest trends out there is China and other countries lowering their reserves in dollars.  One country shedding dollars could easily become a landslide which means trouble in River City.  Bush has the economic all star team doing a full court press on China to do a number of things to weaken their economic advantage to our benefit.  We'll wait to see if the all stars are successful.  Then again they could be talking about Leo Wanta.
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LAK

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2006, 04:32:14 AM »
The landslide hasn't quite started, but the slope is already slipping. Hussein (while he was there) switched to the euro, Iran switched to the euro, former soviet bloc countries are latching onto it and so are some scandinavian countries. If you google dollar euro reserve currency and look at the number switching it is clear where it is going. The euro is gold-backed; hardly surprizing since gold production is controlled by countries with greater political/ideological ties to europa than the U.S. - and the gold market is to a greater degree controlled by the London Fix.

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Re: Breaking the bad news slowly
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2006, 02:00:48 PM »
Debt isn't an issue.  Anyone who thinks it is doesn't understand either debt or economics.
Bad economic policies and tax policies OTOH will kill us if we don't do something.  Who thinks we can get rid of the new Medicare prescription drug benefit?
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