Author Topic: Tankless water heaters??  (Read 4164 times)

Bigjake

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Tankless water heaters??
« on: February 07, 2009, 09:14:21 PM »
Anybody on here have one, or have vicarious experience with them?

Beck and Limbaugh used to pimp the Rinai thing on a pretty regular basis, and now that I'm forced to replace mine, I'm trying to see if they're worth it..

jbrown9709

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 09:21:26 PM »
I've had one, and can't recommend.  There biggest selling point is an unlimited supply of hot water, but gas fired tank heaters recover pretty quickly anyway and don't have the quirks of a tankless.  Those quirks include an extended wait for hot water at times as well as a sensitivity to flows.  If it's set up to provide heat to a shower and faucet, and you just run a faucet, the flow rate may be insufficient for the burner to fire and you get cold water out of the hot tap.  I can remember many times having to turn on the shower in order to get hot water at the sink.  It wasn't a huge deal for us as we had two water heaters and the kitchen/laundry was on a traditional heater, but I can imagine it being a struggle if the whole house was on a tankless.  Additionally, they're stupidly expensive.  Hope this helps,
Jeff

Nitrogen

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2009, 09:34:37 PM »
Read this.
http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/

It's got all the information you need.
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Bogie

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2009, 11:35:50 PM »
I like multiple/zoned heaters. I'd consider a tankless if you have a large jacuzzi, something like that.
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K Frame

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2009, 12:46:53 AM »
Do you have gas service?

If not, don't even consider it. The electric ones suck so much juice that most houses can't use them without very expensive upgrades to the electrical system.
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lupinus

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 08:23:07 AM »
+1 to what Mike said. 

Gas ones are wonderful.  Get a good one, get it installed by someone who has experience with them, and all will be well with the world.

They use far less energy as they aren't constantly going on and off to heat and reheat a large tank of water, they only heat when there is flow.  And, you have limitless hot water.

Most problems I've ever seen have been due to a unit to small to handle the wanted application or that was installed by someone who didn't know what they were doing.
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Leatherneck

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 04:50:35 PM »
My plumber ("I'm not the cheapest in the Northern Neck, but I'm the best") strongly recommended a Rennai tankless (gas) for the new house. I asked him about getting instant hot water at the bathroom about 40 feet away, and he said we should try it out first, and if the delay was objectionable, he could retrofit a circulating pump. I hope we don't need that.

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lupinus

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 05:11:46 PM »
I don't think there would be much of a problem, certainly no longer then your hot water currently takes to get there.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 07:01:53 PM »
ask him how he plans to retrofit a recirculating pump to a tankless.... i see some problems there
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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geronimotwo

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2009, 10:56:19 PM »
many of the electric heaters will use 2 or 3 double pole 40 to 60 amp breakers each. check the amount of space in your main box to see if there is space.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2009, 11:07:55 PM »
more than space is the question of capacity
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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ilbob

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2009, 11:31:58 PM »
the amount of energy savings is often much overstated, and as someone else mentioned if they are sized improperly they can be a real problem.

your best bet is to put the heater near the point of most use such as a shower, and insulate it well. you can also put timers on them to shut off the heat when you are not home, just like you do with your furnace. much cheaper than a tank less that way.

a plumber that thinks he can fix a problem of cold water at startup from a tank less heater with a recric pump needs his head examined.
bob

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2009, 11:51:24 PM »
"you can also put timers on them to shut off the heat when you are not home, just like you do with your furnace. much cheaper than a tank less that way."
 tried that it doesn't work that well.  while its off the tank cools way down takes a long run to bring it back up to temp. the long run averages out to be nearly as long as the lil short runs it uses to "top off the temp " when its left running.
novec in va used to market a high dollar electric "uber heater" for almost a grand that was pretty darn energy efficent. it looked like one of those barrels they went over niagra in . it had that much insulation on it.

i'm glad you thought the recirc on a tankless was a weird idea. i couldn't for the life of me figure that one out either.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Firethorn

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 12:02:57 AM »
If not, don't even consider it. The electric ones suck so much juice that most houses can't use them without very expensive upgrades to the electrical system.

I got into something of an argument with somebody over at slashdot about this.  I've actually used one;  Well, more of a 'microtank' over in Germany.  240V, 30A.  You could barely get a useful shower out of the thing.

Quote from: geronimotwo
many of the electric heaters will use 2 or 3 double pole 40 to 60 amp breakers each. check the amount of space in your main box to see if there is space.

Sounds odd - all the ones I've seen use a single breaker, 120V for the small ones, 240V(double pole) for the bigger ones.  Seen them as high as 100A, which is almost double my entire service.  A 'modern' 200A can service it, not much else.  EDIT:  I think I know the reason for multiple breakers - they're using multiple heaters; perhaps in-line to get the necessary boost.

Thoughts about on demand/tankless heaters;
1.  More relevant with electrics:  They can't be tied to a 'off peak' system - tends to wipe out any savings you might have.
2.  Both electrics and gas units are normally LESS efficient than high efficiency tank units.  Note:  I'm not talking about standby or average use loses, I'm talking about their efficiency at heating water in the first place.  A tanked NG unit will often be over 90%, a tankless only 80%.  Only your exact usage patterns can determine how much getting rid of the tank will actually save you.  NG tankless tends to compete more favorably due to the increased losses due to the flue in gas units.  Electrics tend to be better sealed, reducing standby losses.
3.  For electric, if you really want to save energy, go with a heat pump system.  They make air source to water heater ones.  Dehumidify and cool your basement even as you heat your water - Turn a 240V@30A draw into a 240V@5A one.

Quote
ask him how he plans to retrofit a recirculating pump to a tankless.... i see some problems there

Probably simple enough, just start pumping water when it gets cold enough, firing up the heater until the hot reaches the sensor.  Problem:  You're simply turning your piping into a rather poorly insulated tank.  My 55 gallon electric with 3" of solid foam insulation isn't cooling down anytime soon, even without power.  My electric bills dropped 20% when I installed it over the cheap 50 gallon previously there.

the amount of energy savings is often much overstated, and as someone else mentioned if they are sized improperly they can be a real problem.

I agree on the savings; some families have reported INCREASED energy bills after installing one.  I'd need a 100A one to serve my house, seeing as how I'd need at least a 50F increase, due to my nice, cold, incoming water.

Quote
your best bet is to put the heater near the point of most use such as a shower, and insulate it well. you can also put timers on them to shut off the heat when you are not home, just like you do with your furnace. much cheaper than a tank less that way.

Why would you put a timer on it?  The whole point of a tankless is that it doesn't turn on unless there's water flow, right?  By the same token, insulating it is likely to do little.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 02:38:03 PM by Firethorn »

Brad Johnson

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 01:29:58 PM »
If you use a lot of water it's cheaper long-term to install a larger tank-type unit (or two, considering the price of most tankless units).

Tankless is great if you have a place where you a higher volume of hot water, ot need hot water very occasionally.  The extra price of the unit will be offset by the savings of not keeping 40 or 50 gallons of water hot during those days or weeks when you don't need it.

Understand, as others have pointed out, that tankless units are finicky critters.  Electric units demand a LOT of juice.  My sister and BIL have one.  If I have it figured right, the current draw at full boogie is a whopping twenty two thousand watts.  You can hear their service panel hum when the unit kicks on, and their electric meter spins like the Tasmanian Devil on speed.

Also, they are VERY sensitive to hard water.  They will scale up in no time.  A water softener is darn near mandatory.

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Bigjake

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2009, 05:05:39 PM »
Guys, I much appriciate all the time y'all put into replying to this.

I'm thinking the best option is just buying a new, high efficiency gas water heater and not monkeying around with the tankless. (that, and I know how to install the later..)

Tanks' again  :laugh:

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Tankless water heaters??
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2009, 05:46:15 PM »
have you played with the flexible supplies they have for the heaters now?  the braided flexlines make the plumbing very easy. i  use flex for the gaslines too and its very nice
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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