Post by: Perd Hapley on March 15, 2006, 05:16:03 PM
Has anyone here actually seen this in rural areas? I havent.
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 15, 2006, 05:20:55 PM
1. Regarding incest, it seems that in the Old Country, at one time, marriage between first cousins was to be preferred for keeping the familys money and property within the family. Characters in Jane Austins early nineteenth century British novels seemed to think this was a pretty good idea. Perhaps in isolated rural communities, here in America, such patterns continued after they had been abandoned in the rest of the country.
2. Maybe both of these things have to do with the lesser number of eligible partners in areas of lower population density, especially in frontier areas. Ads for mail-order brides could certainly make city-folk speculate or jest that men on the frontier were getting desperate.
Post by: Standing Wolf on March 15, 2006, 06:47:11 PM
Post by: TarpleyG on March 16, 2006, 02:48:22 AM
Greg
Post by: El Tejon on March 16, 2006, 02:51:13 AM
I do not know what conclusions one can draw from that, perhaps that in the hills where these people are from that there are not many women about as it is hard to move around. Or, it is a family tradition that evolved before the development of roads in the New South. Not really certain myself.
As for general perceptions, it is a New York City presumption that everyone west of Yonkers is a barefoot farmer that has sex with children and animals since they do not live in New York City. This perception is passed into popular media which originates in New York City.
Post by: Art Eatman on March 16, 2006, 03:02:28 AM
Availabilty of eligible partners. For all that cousin/cousin marriage isn't incest, a few generations of that and you can easily wind up with genetic problems.
Hey, homo sap is a mammal, right? The problems are more obvious with such mammals as show-dogs.
Actual incest, I think, is more a cultural thing, far more likely in physically or socially isolated communities. (Based on casual readings, not on scientific knowledge on my part.)
Art
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 16, 2006, 03:08:51 AM
Quote
every single Incest case I've had is Southern.
Are you talking about brothers with sisters, or fathers with daughters, aunts with nephews, or what? I did once hear about a guy down around Houston, who sold trailer homes. One client looking for a trailer was very upset, and he revealed that the trailer was for his son and daughter that were having a child together.
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 16, 2006, 04:20:26 AM
Post by: grampster on March 16, 2006, 04:31:11 AM
Post by: El Tejon on March 16, 2006, 04:52:08 AM
My experience with them confirms what Art said. I think it was the isolation of the hills that made incest part of their culture and even when "Readin', Ritin' and Route 31 North" took them up to Yankeeland to find employment and a better life, they maintained the cultural habits of their origins. Thomas Sowell's book "White Liberals and Black Rednecks" makes this observation as well that is evident right from the opening paragraph.
I think there is an analogy to the drug culture, especially marijuana, in which lower SESs use dope so continuously that it is an accepted part of their lives and its use is not "wrong" to them. As well, if one grows up being abused via incest them this becomes your normal (as sick as others find it).
Not approving any of this or making excuses, just saying what I see.
Post by: matis on March 16, 2006, 06:44:32 AM
Have you ever heard of trans-gendered or cross-dressing country folk? Or country people having sex-change operations, or men screwing men or women screwing women or both screwing children like we have in the cities?
There's probably some but they have sense enough to hide it.
I think it's all a plot by the city sex-freaks to divert attention from themselves.
I know, I know. The thought-police will be here any moment to take me away.
I'll go down shootin'!
matis
Post by: ...has left the building. on March 16, 2006, 08:18:54 AM
Wow. And all this time I thought "sex in the country" meant shacking up with a hot girl that can run a 36-row planter and shoot a shotgun. I'm glad I've been operating under this definition for the past few years instead of yours!
Post by: Guest on March 16, 2006, 08:28:48 AM
Quote from: El Tejon
My experience with them confirms what Art said. I think it was the isolation of the hills that made incest part of their culture ...
Art's hilly town is very tiny. 
Post by: charby on March 16, 2006, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: Daniel Flory
*scratches head
Wow. And all this time I thought "sex in the country" meant shacking up with a hot girl that can run a 36-row planter and shoot a shotgun. I'm glad I've been operating under this definition for the past few years instead of yours!
Yeah that was what I was thinking, or some Boone's Farm wine and horizontal polka in the back of an old 4x4 pickup truck with a stadium blanket on a dirt road (not gravel) near some old cemetery or old stone house homestead. Of course after the 10 pm but before her curfew. Maybe some Alabama playing on the radio.
Wow. And all this time I thought "sex in the country" meant shacking up with a hot girl that can run a 36-row planter and shoot a shotgun. I'm glad I've been operating under this definition for the past few years instead of yours!
Post by: Art Eatman on March 16, 2006, 09:02:03 AM
Post by: Guest on March 16, 2006, 09:18:51 AM
. He's from Missouri. So if this is a pattern, yeah...chalk up another.
Post by: Balog on March 16, 2006, 10:35:46 AM
Quote from: Lennyjoe
We had a deputy up in Marana get arrested for trying to poke the neighbors sheep a couple of weeks ago. Does that count?
Seriously? Hadn't heard about that. Did it make the Republic, or did they manage to keep it quiet?
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 16, 2006, 11:16:57 AM
I guess someone seen him walking to the neighbors house with a pair of hip waders and velcro gloves on
Post by: Werewolf on March 16, 2006, 12:20:13 PM
He rarely got a conviction. The Hispanics didn't see anything wrong with a dad porkin' his daughter as long as she was past puberty. According to my uncle it was a cultural thing and it got to the point where the DA didn't even bother to prosecute the case if after a detailed interview with the girl it appeared she either consented or wasn't physically hurt. It just cost too much time and money to make a point that the mexicans just didn't get anyway.
Different strokes as the saying goes...
Post by: mtnbkr on March 16, 2006, 01:31:18 PM
Chris
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 16, 2006, 02:41:29 PM
Quote
They were just doing work lazy Americans wouldn't do.
Priceless!Werewolf, I really don't want to believe that.
Tejon are these incest cases rural, urban or in between?
Post by: El Tejon on March 17, 2006, 03:01:47 AM
It is my understanding from talking with my guys that incest is not a crime in most of Mexico.
Post by: 280plus on March 17, 2006, 03:22:18 AM
But seriously...
Up here there's a little old what used to be a water powered textile mill community way out in the sticks where it is rumored that interfamily marriage was taking place way back when. A lot of the residents sure look like a lot of the other residents in and around there.
Post by: Harold Tuttle on March 17, 2006, 04:27:46 AM
Post by: ...has left the building. on March 17, 2006, 08:32:41 AM
Quote from: 280plus
I was with charby all the way till he got to the part about Alabama. How can you possibly do the polka to Alabama? I've found Van Morrison is not a bad choice though...
I'm more of a Rob Zombie guy but to each their own
Post by: charby on March 17, 2006, 08:43:44 AM
Well in college it was Pink Floyd's Live album of "Dark Side of the Moon"
Some how that album always sealed the deal after bar close.
C
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 17, 2006, 08:44:52 AM
Quote from: Daniel Flory
I'm more of a Rob Zombie guy but to each their own
Frightening. Please let that be the last detail we read about your sex life.
Post by: grampster on March 17, 2006, 10:47:38 AM
Probably most of you are too young to remember Bill Mauldin. I bet Art knows exactly what I am talking about, though.
PS: Art, I have an original hard copy of Up Front, published in 1944.
Post by: Strings on March 17, 2006, 12:21:12 PM
And it doesn't have to be "cultural" to get passed on: one of THE biggest problems with child abuse cases (of any kind) is the tendancy for the behavior to happen through generations. I don't call it "cultural"...
Post by: ...has left the building. on March 17, 2006, 01:34:51 PM
Quote from: fistful
Quote from: Daniel Flory
I'm more of a Rob Zombie guy but to each their own
Frightening. Please let that be the last detail we read about your sex life.Post by: 280plus on March 17, 2006, 02:27:46 PM
For some of us...
Post by: Justin on March 17, 2006, 02:38:05 PM
Quote
Frightening. Please let that be the last detail we read about your sex life.
I wouldn't know anything at all about NIN.Nope.
*walks away whistling Closer...*
Post by: Art Eatman on March 17, 2006, 04:38:11 PM
I guess my favorite cut line is, "I can't get no lower! My buttons is in the way!"
Art
Post by: MillCreek on March 18, 2006, 06:27:27 PM
Post by: Guest on March 18, 2006, 07:21:53 PM
Quote
Yeah that was what I was thinking, or some Boone's Farm wine and horizontal polka in the back of an old 4x4 pickup truck with a stadium blanket on a dirt road (not gravel) near some old cemetery or old stone house homestead. Of course after the 10 pm but before her curfew. Maybe some Alabama playing on the radio.
holy *expletive deleted*it.... have you been spying on me or something??? thats crazy.take me down.... (/randy owen)
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 18, 2006, 07:54:59 PM
Quote from: Werewolf
One of my Uncle's was an Assistant DA in McAllen, TX back in the early/mid 70's. He had a quite good conviction rate except for one type of case - incest. 95% of the incest cases came from the Hispanic community and Hispanics usually made up a sizable proportion of the jury in those cases. He rarely got a conviction.
The Hispanics didn't see anything wrong with a dad porkin' his daughter as long as she was past puberty. According to my uncle it was a cultural thing and it got to the point where the DA didn't even bother to prosecute the case if after a detailed interview with the girl it appeared she either consented or wasn't physically hurt. It just cost too much time and money to make a point that the mexicans just didn't get anyway.
The Hispanics didn't see anything wrong with a dad porkin' his daughter as long as she was past puberty. According to my uncle it was a cultural thing and it got to the point where the DA didn't even bother to prosecute the case if after a detailed interview with the girl it appeared she either consented or wasn't physically hurt. It just cost too much time and money to make a point that the mexicans just didn't get anyway.
Post by: MillCreek on March 19, 2006, 06:22:14 AM
At my clinic, we occasionally encounter similiar culture dissonance issues in taking care of patients. As an example, some of the recent African immigrants come from cultures that practice female circumcision, which is usually called female genital mutilation (FGM) in this country. These patients come to us and ask us to perform the procedure. Suffice it to say that we do not. The patients are puzzled and distressed by this, since their interpretation of their religious beliefs mandates this procedure. Be that as it may, but our ethics do not allow us to do this.
Post by: Werewolf on March 19, 2006, 07:49:43 AM
Quote
Fistful, I did see that post, and I was curious as to if there was a difference on this issue in the Hispanic culture in the US vs. the culture in Mexico. It is hard for me to imagine a culture in which this is not seen as a terrible thing, but cultures vary.
Yes they do.The ancient egyptians, pre-columbian Hawaaians both practiced incest. The egyptians at the royal family level but the Hawaaian at all levels.
There were some African tribes where it was the father's duty to take the daughter's virginity.
The Taboo against incest is not some instinctual thing. It is learned. The idea that it leads to all sorts of bad physical things is true only if it is practiced incorrectly - which the egyptians did and the Hawaaians did not. The chance of reinforcing good genes is the same as that of reinforcing bad genes. The Hawaaians tossed defective progeny into the sea and were considered as a group among the finest physical examples of humanity available. The egyptians didn't dispose of the defectives and it lead to a pretty sorry example of humans. The European royal families are another example of the problems inbreeding without the willingness to eliminate the defectives can lead to.
Don't believe incest can lead to improvements of the breed - take a look at animal husbandry. Incest taken to it's most extreme conclusion.
Post by: grampster on March 19, 2006, 08:11:39 AM
I always really liked the one where Willy (or Joe, I don't remember) is digging a foxhole as a tank was driving by. He said, "I'll keep diggin, a movin' foxhole attracts de eye."
Post by: Art Eatman on March 19, 2006, 01:19:25 PM
:-), Art
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 19, 2006, 01:25:05 PM
Quote
Don't believe incest can lead to improvements of the breed - take a look at animal husbandry. Incest taken to it's most extreme conclusion.
What do you mean? If you're talking about developing breeds of dogs, isn't it true that mutts are more robust? From time to time, I hear that certain breeds are susceptible to a particular health problem. But then, I'd never pay for a dog, when kids are standing outside Wal-Mart givin' em away. Quote
The Hawaaians tossed defective progeny into the sea and were considered as a group among the finest physical examples of humanity available. The egyptians didn't dispose of the defectives and it lead to a pretty sorry example of humans. The European royal families are another example of the problems inbreeding without the willingness to eliminate the defectives can lead to.
Well, we could also do that with "defectives," to use that cold terminology, who aren't products of incest. The Greeks and Romans both did. Maybe the Hawaains did this because they did produced a lot of "defectives." Does this practice change the fact that closely related individuals are likely to have the same genetic mutations, and therefore the two strands of DNA cannot correct one another? At least that's how it was explained to me. No geneticist here.
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 19, 2006, 01:26:14 PM
Post by: MillCreek on March 19, 2006, 01:38:53 PM
Female circumcision generally consists of removal of the clitoris and parts of the labia majora and labia minora, and sometime also partial closure of the vaginal opening. It was traditionally done by family members or members of a tribe who had particular experience with the procedure. With the immigration of these cultural populations to First World countries, many medical providers have been asked to perform them. Based on my review of the medical literature and speaking with my colleagues nationally, few if any First World medical providers do so. In our area, it has primarily been the Sudanese population that has requested this.
Post by: Guest on March 19, 2006, 02:03:35 PM
Quote from: fistful
Millcreek, what is the religion of those seeking female circumcision? Just curious.
The are from a variety of religions. The practice is cultural rather than religious, so it is practiced by a wide range of people, regardless of faith. Today, many of them are Muslims, although the practice itself is older than islam, and it has been practiced by groups of people who were Christian, as well as those from a whole range of tribal religions.
Post by: Werewolf on March 19, 2006, 02:30:09 PM
Quote
What do you mean? If you're talking about developing breeds of dogs, isn't it true that mutts are more robust? From time to time, I hear that certain breeds are susceptible to a particular health problem. But then, I'd never pay for a dog, when kids are standing outside Wal-Mart givin' em away.
Mutts are more robust when it comes to dog breeds but that is because in breeding dogs the breeders are looking to reinforce particular traits that identify a breed. They are not trying to reinforce positive genes and eliminate bad ones. In cattle breeding the same thing happens. When developing animals for meat those characteristics are reinforced. The breeder doesn't care whether that comes with a short life span, weak bones or not. They breed for one or two characteristics only. The inbreeding comes about because breeders can see the traits in just a few generations as opposed to the many it would take if they bred non-related animals.From a genetic point of view the probability of reinforcing good traits when inbreeding occurs is only slightly less than the probability of reinforcing bad genes. In nature the problem is self correcting. In human society it is not as humans understandably have a reluctance to throw away their offspring or just leave them to die. So carriers of bad genes unless the gene is fatal, go on to breed (hemophelia in the royal families of Europe, The elongated mishapen skulls of the pharohs(sp)).
The incest taboo makes perfect sense humans being what they are and pretty much must be enforced if our gene pool is to remain diversified (but only because humans are unwilling to take the steps necessary to eliminate those traits that are not so welcome).
Ideas like I've presented above led to the hole eugenics thing of the early to mid 20th century and we all know where that led. There's a reason inbreeding and selective breeding are taboo. In most cultures they create more bad than good.
Post by: MillCreek on March 19, 2006, 03:05:29 PM
Quote from: Blackburn
Considering how difficult it is for someone from another country to emigrate here (especially when Filipinos with Phds can be made to wait for years and years and years) it makes me wonder how people that backwards are able to get in.
For the Sudanese population in our area, they were displaced by civil war and languished for years in refugee camps until some countries, including the USA, granted them the ability to immigrate. So I think that special dispensations were made since they were a population displaced by war.
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 19, 2006, 08:49:16 PM
Post by: Strings on March 19, 2006, 08:53:38 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 19, 2006, 09:20:01 PM
A philosophy prof of mine said that, when in Egypt, he found that the women there regarded FC as necessary for moral reasons. According to their culture, women have such an aggressive and dangerous sexual appetite, that it was necessary to reduce their ability to enjoy sex. I wonder how the men of that culture can preach that nonsense with a straight face. It's just too ridiculous.
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 19, 2006, 10:03:20 PM