Author Topic: More financial advice...  (Read 4281 times)

garrettwc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 870
  • Tell me what I want to know and the pain will stop
More financial advice...
« on: October 10, 2005, 08:49:28 AM »
I am looking for some suggestions from the APS financial gurus. I need to increase my financial know how. I was a business major in school and have read a few books so I sort of know the basics. Just enough to be dangerous.Smiley

What books, websites, etc. would you recommend I spend some time reading in order to better educate myself?

My ultimate goal is those magic two words: "Financial Independence". I have done the obvious things, maxing out my 401K contribution, paying down my debt(still working on this one), but at 43 I still have a long way to go and a short time to get there.

Once I have the knowledge are there any websites or periodicals I should be reading daily/weekly/monthly to keep current on the market and what's going on?

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
More financial advice...
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2005, 11:37:01 AM »
"Financial Independence" comes from spending less.  

More financial knowledge really won't help much.  If you paid any attention during business school, then you oughta know enough to gain financial independence (provided you can discipline yourself to stop spending money).

But to answer your question, The Motley Fool's advice is generally as sensible as it gets among financial self help info.  They have a website, a few books, and maybe some other stuff.

garrettwc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 870
  • Tell me what I want to know and the pain will stop
More financial advice...
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2005, 12:16:16 PM »
Quote
"Financial Independence" comes from spending less.
Can't argue with that one. I do remember from B school that it's easier to cut $1 in costs than to raise prices(increase income) $1. What I'm looking for is good information on what to do with the money I save rather than let it sit there and be eaten up by inflation.

Did I mention B-school was over 20 years ago, and personal finance was only a 1 semester class? :/ Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check out Motley Fool.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

  • Guest
More financial advice...
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2005, 12:19:39 PM »
I've found that certain publications assume that you are starting with a 6-figure income at age 21, and it only goes up from there.  

I've also found that Motley Fool is pretty good once you have some discretionary income with which to invest.

pocketchangeinvestor is good: http://www.goodadvicepress.com/pci.htm
and
www.armchairmillionaire.com are both good sites.

www.smartmoney.com will keep you busy learning for the next decade.

Regards,
Fig


P.S. Rabbi's post made me want to add another GREAT book, I give to H.S./College grads among family/friends:
"The Wealthy Barber" by David Chilton.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
More financial advice...
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2005, 12:20:23 PM »
Best book on general thrift and habits to acquire: The Millionaire Next Door.  Opened my eyes.  I cant say enough good about the book.

Best book on the stock market: The Intelligent Investor by Ben Graham, Warren Buffet's teacher.  A value approach to investing that works as well today as it did in 1935 or whenever the book first appeared.
Second best: A Random Walk Down Wall St.  I dont agree with the basic premise of the book, but the historic knowledge is invaluable.  Every decade has its fad: tech in the 90s, biotech in the 80s, electronics in the 60s, etc.  And reading about them, they all follow the same pattern.

Best book on financial independence: Rich Dad, Poor Dad.  At first I disagreed with some of what he said but as I thought about it I thought he made a pretty good case.

Best  economics book: Thomas Sowell on Economics for the Citizen.  If you missed basic economic theory this is a good one.  If more people read it we would not be hearing this "exporting jobs" rhetoric all over.
Wall St Journal.  Indespensible.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

garrettwc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 870
  • Tell me what I want to know and the pain will stop
More financial advice...
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2005, 07:31:53 PM »
Fig and Rabbi, thanks for the links and the book recommendations. Exactly the kind of first hand coaching I am looking for.

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
More financial advice...
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2005, 01:34:43 AM »
"The Visual Investor" (How to Spot Market Trends) by John J. Murphy. I don't know about the Fools, they made some "foolish" recommendations a while back and have fallen out of favor, with me at least. I don't remember specifics I'm afraid. I steer away from most recommendations by "experts". I get the feeling most of them are pumping stocks for their own benefit.

The book centers on reading and analyzing stock charts, Bollinger bands for instance. IMHO it's really all you have to know. It shows you certain graph configurations that indicate direction and more importantly CHANGES in direction. I just bought 4 titles I got from THR's reading list thread so my book money is used up but I'll put the other recommendations here on the wish list. Incidentally, I advocate a long approach to the market even though I was able to find certain ways to inhance my savings with short term investments. Mind you, I didn't make any earth staggering sums. I try not to get greedy and limit my short term stuff to a few thousand at best. I haven't done much lately. Find a couple stocks you think you like and track them for a while. See how they react to the market's trends. I'll even give you a good one. UTX, watch that for a while. Watch how it follows the market's daily ups and downs. Look at it's trend over time. A trick is to find a a few predictable stocks and specialize in them. Some stocks react in very predictable ways in reference to the market. You only need a few, it eliminates a lot of the research involved in trying to find new "winners" every day. Also less risky but you're still gambling, there are times when a stock will do the exact opposite of what it normally does.  And if the market decides to tank one day...shocked

Smiley
Avoid cliches like the plague!

garrettwc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 870
  • Tell me what I want to know and the pain will stop
More financial advice...
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2005, 03:59:08 AM »
I add that one to the reading list.

I agree with you about the "experts". I have seen several of them go bust in a large and public fashion. That's why I went looking here. Hopefully, I can avoid the snake oil salesman and just find some useful learning tools that I can use to figure it out myself.

UTX looks interesting. All of their core businesses are household names. Thanks.

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
More financial advice...
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2005, 04:40:34 AM »
Just watch it and compare it to the market. I used to track a few others but have since stopped doing so. In the past when the market has gone down so has UTX, but not as much. When the market comes back so does UTX but usually more. It out performs the market regularly and if you time it juuuust right you can make a few bucks. Now I'm only talking about a few % most of the time but every once in a while UTX will jump big when the market rebounds. I consider 5-7% big on a days return BTW. I will admit I haven't been watching it as closely lately because it's been performing well and I decided to keep the funds in there for a longer period. It also pays a good dividend.

Look for stocks that go up on a bad market day. That's usually a sign that other investors feel it is a strong stock. The track them for a while. A year is not too long.

And this is NOT, I REPEAT NOT Paul Kangas wishing you the "Best of good buys!"

Wink
Avoid cliches like the plague!

garrettwc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 870
  • Tell me what I want to know and the pain will stop
More financial advice...
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2005, 06:59:51 AM »
More good advice. cool

Quote
And this is NOT, I REPEAT NOT Paul Kangas wishing you the "Best of good buys!"
cheesy
Paul spends too much time in that Miami sun. He's the financial George Hamilton. Now Susie Gharib on the other hand, here kitty kitty.Cheesy

SalukiFan

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
More financial advice...
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2005, 07:15:39 AM »
I like Suze Orman quite a bit myself.  I would recommend catching her show on cable and checking it out to see if you like her style.  If you like what you see, she's got quite a few books out there.

I also second the Motley Fool advice.  They had a book a few years ago called "Motley Fool's Investing Without a Silver Spoon: How Anyone Can Build Wealth Through Direct Investing" that I liked very much.  It explains how to invest in companies without having to go through a broker and paying broker fees.  

It was written a few years ago so a lot of the information on the companies might be out of date but the general ideas are helpful.

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,083
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
More financial advice...
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2005, 07:46:33 AM »
+ 1 on Rabbi's suggestion of "Millionaire Next Door".

Also, always think long-term, and in terms of net worth. Amortize the cost of large purchases over the life of the product and see if it really is as good a deal as you think.  Keep a ledger of your net value (total assets less total liabilities) and update it monthly.

Also, make sure you are making frugal choices and not cheap ones. Buy based on value, not on price. If a widget costs twice as much but will last four times as long, it's a better value. Also give yourself things to do that don't cost so much. Think about this, if you rent 2 movies a week at $3 a pop, that's 25 bucks for eight nights worth of entertainment. You can get basic cable for around $35 and have something to watch virtually every night. If you like magazines and buy one a month at $4 each, that's $50 a year. For the cost of two or three newstand issues you can subscribe for a year. Or you could do without cable and magazines and go for a walk or take up a hobby. Or you can volunteer at a local food bank or childrens' shelter. Very rewarding, and also free.

Also, get a library card. Books are fun, in case you've forgotten. Try reading the entire Tom Clancy collection from cover-to-cover and in chronological order. It'll take a while. And it's free from your local library. You can also check out movies.

If you smoke, quit. Right now. No excuses, no whiney "oh-poor-me" or "it's so addictive" BS. Just do it. It's only as hard as you let it be. I did it, so can you. And a pack-a-day habit at $4 a pack costs you almost $1500 per year. Same goes for booze. And eating out. Cook at home, it's not hard. Go to your local bookstore and buy a bachelor's cookbook, or something along the lines of "One-Dish Simple". If you don't have a crock pot or slow cooker, get one. You can make a big batch of someting and freeze it in single serve portions you can reheat in the m-wave. And learn to like rice, beans, potatoes, and pasta. Learn to make one or two simple sauces (easier than you think). With five or six basic food items you can mix and match more than you think. Try living on a food budget of $30 per month and still maintain a healthy diet. It's not much fun, but it is possible. And I did it for years.

Take it from someone who learned the hard way - there are many things you THINK you need which you can easily do without. And sometimes being frugal means making a big single purchase that will last you a while. What do you REALLY need? Simple - food, water, shelter. Everything aside from that is a WANT. Prioritize accordingly. Take the savings and aggressively attack your debts. Line them up from smallest to largest, paying the minimum on large balances and using everything left over to pay off the small balances. As balances get paid off, tackle the next largest item on the list. It works, and works well. Using this system I went from being almost $30,000 in debt to a six-figure net equity in less than five years. Was it a pain in the butt? Yes. Were there times I wanted to say "heck with it" and go live it up and have a big 'ol party? Yep. Now that I am almost totally out of debt (including car and house) and see the light at the end of the tunnel, am I glad I did it? You better freakin' believe it!!

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

garrettwc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 870
  • Tell me what I want to know and the pain will stop
More financial advice...
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2005, 07:51:12 AM »
Thanks Saluki, I took a look on Amazon and that one looks like another one to add to the list. I definitely plan to try discount or direct sales.

Thumbed through the free preview on Amazon and the stock that 280Plus recommended is on the direct investments list. Hmmn...[starts turning over cushions looking for loose change]

garrettwc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 870
  • Tell me what I want to know and the pain will stop
More financial advice...
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2005, 08:06:09 AM »
Brad, way ahead of the game on most everything you mentioned.

Basic cable - only reason I keep it is so the kids have their cartoon channels. Got something like 70 channels and there are maybe 3-4 shows in a 7 day period I actually want to see. Only time we rent movies is to see one we decided not to binge on at the local megaplex.

Library card - had one since the library first opened in this town, back when the stuff in the history section was current affairs. Tongue They also have a good magazine section so when there is an article I want to read I try to pop in there rather than spend the $5 at the newstand.

Never started smoking. Can't understand people who pay for the privilege of coughing and wheezing all the time.

Working on the debt thing right now. Thinking about getting a second job to speed up the process. However, the additional income could bump me into the next tax bracket (it's pretty close) so I might end up hurting myself more than helping.

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
More financial advice...
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2005, 09:14:33 AM »
see if this works...

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=5y&s=UTX&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=&c=%5EDJI

Looks like it does. You can see how UTX outperformed the DJIA. It would appear they are both moving sideways so far this year but you can see how UTX mimics the DJIA.

Remember, I didn't recommend a buy, just a watch and track for now. Post 911 it took a real dive as you can see by the chart. Sad part is if I had left what was left of my $ in there instaed of bailing I'd be way ahead on it by now. This is why long is better.
Avoid cliches like the plague!

garrettwc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 870
  • Tell me what I want to know and the pain will stop
More financial advice...
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2005, 09:40:26 AM »
Quote
Remember, I didn't recommend a buy, just a watch and track for now.
Understood. One question, after tracking for a year or so, what's the determining factor on whether or not you jump in?

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
More financial advice...
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2005, 10:16:59 AM »
Hmmmm, this is a short or day trading strategy. The best long term plan would be to buy and hold and add regulary and forever. Someone else mentioned this. Cost averaging. Regardless of whether it's up or down when you buy, over the long run it averages out. The idea of the day or couple day trade is after a while you'll get the feel for how the stock reacts to certain market conditions and can with some accuracy predict when to buy and when to sell. Again, you are gambling, make no mistake, but you're odds are better because of your knowledge of the stock and how it performs.

For the longest time I found that if the market tanked on Friday by the Following Tuesday it had usually recovered it's losses. UTX would tank right with it and then come back, usually stronger than it was the previous Friday start. So if the market tanked on Friday I would buy ~$3000 worth of UTX near the end of the day and sell Monday or even Tuesday if things were looking good. Sometimes I sold on Monday and the thing went up even more on Tuesday. Now, 5% on $3000 is $150 so you pull that off a few times and you've done pretty good. The turn around is that if the market decided to tank some more on Monday UTX would not follow it nearly as deep so there was kind of a hedge there. I think my best run ever was $255. I think I had only a couple minor losses.

I don't know if this particular trend is still working. But you get the idea.

I'ne never done any "shorting" of stock btw, to me it seems wrong somehow. I'd rather gamble on success.
Avoid cliches like the plague!

garrettwc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 870
  • Tell me what I want to know and the pain will stop
More financial advice...
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2005, 11:01:35 AM »
Okay gotcha. I'm not in a position to tackle day trading right now, but if I had some play money it would be interesting.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
More financial advice...
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2005, 12:14:41 PM »
Quote
I'ne never done any "shorting" of stock btw, to me it seems wrong somehow. I'd rather gamble on success.
That's funny because I am the opposite.  I love shorting stocks.  I am a pessimist by nature (the glass is not only half empty but cracked.  And leaking on my hand.  And I think I cut myself) and a cynic to boot.  If EVERYONE loves a stock then for sure it's a stinker of the first order. Stupid people will bet their life's savings buying it, only to see it crash in flames.  And I will be jumping up and down gleefully yelling I TOLD YOU SO.
Investing brings out the best in people, I know.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
More financial advice...
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2005, 12:33:58 PM »
Quote
Investing brings out the best in people, I know.
yea it does...

That has a bit of the old "Never give a sucker an even break" kind of thing going on it it here Rabbi.

Wink
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,083
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
More financial advice...
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2005, 01:30:36 PM »
Have to throw in a little caution.. day trading is great if you are committed to to doing that and only that, and don't mind risking everything you have on a daily basis. It's not something you do every once in a while. Personally, I like the relatively good growth prospects of a diversified lont-term portfolio consisting of several types and brands of mutual funds, REITS, private ventures, and some local capital ventures.

Also, remember to max out your ROTH every year. The tax-free returns on a ROTH IRA are, by nature, and immediate return realized as a reduced future expense. Look at it this way, if you have $1 to cash out and pay 25% tax on it, you really only have $0.75. If it is a ROTH you actually have a full buck left. Since $0.25 (25% tax, remember) is one-third of $0.75 you would get on a ragular investment, you are realizing a 33.3% increase in actual net revenue. The elimination of the tax burden means that the investment would have to SIGNIFICANTLY underperform for it not to be worthwhile. Given the historically good returns on long-term investments, I'll take the risk.

Also, does your company have a stock-matching plan? If they do, get in. Even if you have to keep the stock for a couple of years and pay taxes on the increase, paying a little tax on a 100% return still beats the heck out of anything else. Let's say you put in $1 and they match it. Let's even say the stock growth is ZERO, just to be the pessimist. Throw into the mix that you have to keep it for two years, and when you pull it out you pay a 25% income tax. Remember, that's 25% tax on the value less the original purchase amount ($1). So, you pay 0.25 to get your extra buck. That's a $0.75 (75 percent) net return in two years. I'll take that any day. Take the gain and roll it into your ROTH, or some other long-term investment and let it grow over a couple of decades.

And finally....

Even if your stock prices tank, you only lose money when you sell. Panic has cost people more money than any real stock fluctiation. Unless the company is going out of business tomorrow, sit tight and let the suckers take the beating.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
More financial advice...
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2005, 01:59:02 PM »
Quote
Even if your stock prices tank, you only lose money when you sell.
Listen to Brad!! He's right on.

He's absolutely right about day trading. I was dabbling and did ok but I was certainly not risking my whole life savings by any means. And I never would.

Wink
Avoid cliches like the plague!

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
More financial advice...
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2005, 02:20:17 PM »
I'll add in the book category Jonathan Clements' 20 Mistakes You Must Avoid or something like that.  He writes the Getting Going column in the Wall St Journal and is very good and an entertaining read.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,083
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
More financial advice...
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2005, 02:56:10 PM »
Quote
I'll add in the book category Jonathan Clements' 20 Mistakes You Must Avoid or something like that.  He writes the Getting Going column in the Wall St Journal and is very good and an entertaining read.
+1

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

  • Guest
More financial advice...
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2005, 03:46:54 PM »
Quote from: Brad Johnson
What do you REALLY need? Simple - food, water, shelter. Everything aside from that is a WANT. Prioritize accordingly. Take the savings and aggressively attack your debts. Line them up from smallest to largest, paying the minimum on large balances and using everything left over to pay off the small balances. As balances get paid off, tackle the next largest item on the list. It works, and works well. Using this system I went from being almost $30,000 in debt to a six-figure net equity in less than five years. Was it a pain in the butt? Yes. Were there times I wanted to say "heck with it" and go live it up and have a big 'ol party? Yep. Now that I am almost totally out of debt (including car and house) and see the light at the end of the tunnel, am I glad I did it? You better freakin' believe it!!

Brad
Brad speak STRONG mojo!  Smiley
By using that "inverted pyramid" method of paying off debt, you can REALLY knock it out quickly. Once done, you will be AMAZED at how much bargaining power it gives you, being able to offer to purchase in "cash, right now."  Ka-ching! It's good for as much as a 15-20% discount on almost anything you buy from a private individual.

When I spoke with a rep of the company that manages my 401K, she was literally shocked that I had no consumer debt, owned all my cars free and clear, and had nothing financed.
z