Author Topic: The Mount Hood Thread  (Read 5451 times)

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,187
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
The Mount Hood Thread
« on: December 18, 2006, 12:08:23 AM »
I cant help but wonder, why attempt a climb on the tough side of a really tall
mountain in winter? especially if you have not even been up that mountain in the summer?

I am sorry the guy lost his life, he did the right thing, made a "snow cave"
and all....but don't you have to expect unexpected blizzards on Mt Hood in the winter?

I've never been there but I expect snow in July when I'm in the higher elevations.

These guys are supposed to be experienced mountain climbers, I am not myself
so maybe I'm missing something..so I ask...I am sure we have a mountain climber
here...would you climb the tough side of hood in december?
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

LadySmith

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,166
  • Veni, Vidi, Jactavi Calceos
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2006, 01:29:09 AM »
I'm wondering the same thing myself, Gunsmith.
I knew a guy who would push himself to the limit doing things like bicycling through Death Valley in the summertime. I asked him if he had a deathwish. He said doing things like that were the only things that made him feel alive.  undecided
Rogue AI searching for amusement and/or Ellie Mae imitator searching for critters.
"What doesn't kill me makes me stronger...and it also makes me a cat-lover" - The Viking
According to Ben, I'm an inconvenient anomaly (and proud of it!).

thumbody

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2006, 02:32:47 AM »
People have always been willing to risk their lives just to prove they could do something dangerous. Climbers die very frequently on Everest but people are still climbing it.Drag racers risk their lives all the time as do NASCAR drivers . They do it for the thrill and fame.
My problem is that they go into these endeavors willingly but when problems occur the bill is passed to the taxpayers.Hundreds of searchers are putting themselves in harms way trying to save these men lives just because they wanted to do something dangerous.
I hope for the best for the remaining hikers ,but feel sorrow only for the family members of these men.
I'm OK it's the rest of the world that's messed up

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,479
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2006, 02:38:42 AM »
Quote
why attempt a climb on the tough side of a really tall
mountain in winter? especially if you have not even been up that mountain in the summer?
Because it was there.  Why climb a mountain at all?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Ron

  • Guest
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2006, 04:45:18 AM »
Lightweight and ultra light seems to be real big right now with hikers and climbers.

I am all for lightweight gear but I think you need to be prepared for the worst with nature.

Life is precious enough to me where I will willingly lug around extra stuff I probably won't need but will be real happy to have if I find myself in trouble.


Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,212
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2006, 05:47:06 AM »
I've got no problem with climbing the mountain, whether with full gear or buck nekkid -- if it's something someone wants to do, more power to 'em. The problem, as pointed out above, is that now rescuer's lives have been put at risk, as well of the enormous costs of the rescue.

If you want to do something risky, then be prepared for and aware of the WHOLE risk, up to and including dying. I bet a lot fewer people would do the "daredevil, thrillseeker" routine if they knew they'd be on their own no matter what, or at the very least would have to pay the rescue costs. The helo time alone that's been spent on this rescue would freakin' bankrupt most people.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2006, 10:29:30 AM »
This may sound callous, but to me, they're the candidates for the 2006 Darwin Award.

I feel sorry for their surviving families, but don't pity the deceased climbers in the least.

How can I armchair quarterback that so readily?

Easy.  I'm a graduate of the USAF Arctic Survival School (aka, Cool School), taught to aircrew dawgs in Fairbanks, AK.  One spends a week living off the land in -40 temps with the intent of getting rescued at the end.  I wish everybody could take the course, government tax dollars notwithstanding.

I know these Mount Hood climbers will become part of the lesson plan up there.  My wife was watching the news reports as the search progressed, and I told her to turn the TV to a different channel, because they were already dead. When asked why I thought that, I replied that they had made several fatal errors and simply hadn't prepared for what they eventually came across.  End of (sad) story. 
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2006, 10:31:30 AM »
Would you list the errors?
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,479
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2006, 10:35:45 AM »
Yes, please.  Having taken some courses at the Boulder Outdoor Survival School, I've always wanted to take a course from Mors Kochanski or at that survival school in Alaska.  Do you know if those are any good? 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2006, 10:45:09 AM »
I feel sorry for their surviving families, but don't pity the deceased climbers in the least.
Can't argue with that.  They knew the risks associated with mountain climbing.  I show no sympathy for those who die under such circumstances, regardless of the precautions taken.  However, I don't think they're candidates for the Darwin Award.  They did something thousands of people do all over the world. 
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2006, 11:50:13 AM »
And there are also two types of cliff divers in Acapulco - successful cliff divers, and stuff on a rock.

Rather than try to re-teach the course, here's a link to one of the earlier AF manuals, pretty much the same as what's still in my helmet bag:

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA365888

Ok, just a few things that are obvious to me, at least from the Cool School perspective.

The snow cave is a darned good idea - but stick with it, keep it just a hair larger than the occupants with a mimimum of at least 8 inches of snow on all sides, and the more occupants, the more body heat to keep it warm inside.  Don't build one with 1,000 square feet of space inside if you're going to be the only occupant. If available, the heat from just one candle (or one of those little Sterno tins) in a small one-person snow cave can make all the difference.  Likewise, there were three of the climbers - all three should have been in the same snow cave, conserving body heat and making use of the buddy system.  Excursions from the cave to make ground markers or get a good cell phone signal are fine, just remember it takes time to warm up again, especially if you return to an empty snow cave. Our snow caves in Fairbanks ranged from one man to 20.  One man caves were discouraged unless you were a traveling party of one.

Flares/mirrors/beacons/radios/cell phones/signaling devices - From the news reports we know at least one guy had a cell phone, with maybe one battery, and it appears he was trying to conserve juice by turning it on and off as time progressed.  I doubt it was an Iridium satellite cell phone, so he was using a terrestrial cell phone at an altitude of 11,000 feet.  I know some cell phones have a GPS locater function built-in, assuming it's turned on and functioning. That's a pretty damned thin lifeline to the rest of the world.  Now I don't expect everybody to pop a red smoke flare from their ejection seat survival kits when they're in a pinch, but these guys were supposed to be professional climbers.  Even a pocket signal mirror weighs next to nothing.

Rugged survivalists or not, I doubt there's a single mountain climber, amateur or professional, who doesn't realize weather on peaks can turn to sour owl $hit in a matter of minutes.  Lightweight and ultra-light doesn't do one a damned bit of good if you don't plan for the contingency.  Somebody here was giving Mike Irwin crap about those aluminized mylar thermal blankets, but they actually do a good job of conserving body heat - and weigh next to nothing.  The one I had in my two-man snow cave was actually quite nice, I ended up putting it under my sleeping bag to reflect heat back into me. 

When they find the other two human popsicles, we'll get the full story.  This sad little story won't dissuade mountain climbers, nor will it dissuade unprepared mountain climbers.  I don't plan on surviving any mountain areas now that I've retired from flying, but my truck and wife's car have a lot of stuff that would sustain life were we in a similar situation. (Much to her chagrine, I'll wager she'd nominate me for a tinfoil helmet had she not seen the four survival school diplomas) 

Pay attention to what shakes out in the news, and I'd lean heavily towards what survival school instructors have to say about it.  Why?  As part of their qualification process, they actually have to live afield using the tools of their trade, and their course is even tougher than the one taught to flyboys who take their instruction later. (The instructors refer to it as a Gentleman's School)  Wink
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,108
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2006, 12:26:14 PM »
Gewehr98's analysis (which I agree with wholeheartedly, buy the way) makes me think about the CNET guy a couple of weeks ago.  That guy died of terminal stupidity by making some very poor basic decisions, but his poor crisis management skills were born of ignorance.  These guys knew the risks and went up anyway.  It's a terrible and tragic loss for their families, but these guys got themselves dead.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,187
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2006, 12:41:15 PM »
One of my points was that they had never been up that mountain before, so were not familiar with the terrain.
Other climbers on TV have said that it is easier to climb in the winter because you have clampons
(sic? not sure exactly what those are) also it is said to be very beautiful in the winter.


News reports say that it was a three man cave and they had spent the night there....to bad they didn't stay
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

Ron

  • Guest
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2006, 01:28:04 PM »
Extra clothes add extra weight, some type of stove and fuel adds weight, emergency transponder adds weight, candles and fire starter adds weight etc..

All the things that can bail you out and keep you alive add weight.

Their note said they were traveling light.

Like I said earlier (and I am a newbie to backpacking let alone M climbing) I would rather lug around the stuff that will save me in an emergency and never use it than have bragging rights on how light my pack is compared to others.

 

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2006, 02:15:52 PM »
FWIW, and to tie into the Ham radio thread, a climber on one of the 2m repeaters in this area was chimed into a discussion about this tragedy to mention how he uses amateur radio to help keep him safe while mountaineering.  One of the things he does while out in the wilderness is to try and check in with a repeater local to that area or find someone monitoring the simplex calling frequencies.  He said he'd frequently have offers from strangers willing to be on the air at certain times so he could check in. 

Also, regarding snow caves, I built one for giggles when I was in HS.  It was a few inches longer than me, about a foot wider, and just tall enough to let me sit up, yet very hunched over.  The outside temps were in the high 20s, yet the inside of this "cave" got warm enough to be comfortable if I stayed inside for even a half hour.  It was an interesting (to me) experience.

Chris

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2006, 03:04:17 PM »
Thanks G...
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Ron

  • Guest
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2006, 04:44:07 PM »
Quote
Thanks G...

Agreed, good stuff.

We learn from others failures, its a shame.

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2006, 06:35:33 PM »
Gewehr,

My dad was an instructor at the USAF Survival School at Eielson, 67-69 (IIRC).

He would (and still does) pull out weird knowledge that sets me, Mr. High-Speed / Low-Drag Reconman, back as to just how cool my dad is.  grin

He used to talk about the "classroom" portion and then sending the guys out to prac app.  Then the instructors sitting around drinking coffee until it was time to "go round 'em up".

His other comment was the irony of teaching pilots to survive on sub-arctic tundra when most were on their way to triple-canopy jungle.  undecided
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

meinbruder

  • friends
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2006, 08:03:58 PM »
This may sound callous, but to me, they're the candidates for the 2006 Darwin Award.

I feel sorry for their surviving families, but don't pity the deceased climbers in the least.

How can I armchair quarterback that so readily? 

Gewehr98, I'll go beyond callous for you, these guys may only be eligible for an honorable mention.  If they managed to reproduce, like Mr. Kim, they can not be given the formal Darwin Award.  Your analysis of mistakes was spot on.  Discussions of equipment carried or recommended will rage for years.  Coulda, woulda, shouda; these are thing we'll never know for sure.  Survival school is to prepare someone for the worst possible outcome. 

Two things most of the country doesn't seem to know about this little incident.  The original reports of the missing climbers indicated three men went up the mountain for a day hike and gave no indication of equipment carried.  At least that was the report I head for the first twenty-four hours after they went missing.  The weather report at the time indicated a sever storm prediction on the day they went up the mountain. 

The storm that developed started at the coast 150 miles west of Mt. Hood, 100mph winds and driving rain at ground level, freezing temperatures predicted above 500 feet, possible accumulation of snow above 500 feet, and a two-day transit time projected for the storm.  I wont go into the power outages extending from the Oregon coast east into the Portland Metro area and extending north to Seattle.  I wont mention the downed trees and power lines in my own neighborhood, which kept the county sheriffs on high alert for thirty-six hours of over time.  I wont mention the half million people affected in their homes by this storm.  Okay, rant over.

They went up the mountain after nothing more than dropping a hike schedule in a closed forest service office, it was found the next morning, in advance of what could have been the storm of the century.  Three days into the search, a note was found at the base camp of the rescue effort.  The note detailed the equipment the climbers were carrying.  This suggests the whole thing was a prank. 

I truly hope the other two climbers are found alive.  I would very much like to see them prosecuted for manslaughter and given a bill for the rescue effort.  I dont know the cost of running a C130 SAR aircraft for a week but I do know that we the people are paying for it.  Its been said that the climbers were practicing for an assault on Everest, they sure picked a great weekend to do it because the weather turn to sour owl $#!t in a hurry.  Maybe that was what they were hoping for, it sure taught one of them a lesson.
}:)> 

btw... I thought I posted this twenty minutes ago, pardon me if it hits twice.
Artificial Intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.....

Da bianhua
}:)>

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2006, 10:24:09 PM »
O
Other climbers on TV have said that it is easier to climb in the winter because you have clampons
(sic? not sure exactly what those are) also it is said to be very beautiful in the winter.

crampons - metal spikes that strap onto your boots, like old-timey roller skates.  They allow you to plant your foot flat on snow and ice and dig in with your toes on more vertical surfaces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crampons
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

LAK

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 915
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2006, 11:49:34 PM »
Pilot error. Whether they had all the right gear or not, evidently one or more of them made some bad decisions on the mountain.

BenW
Quote
The problem, as pointed out above, is that now rescuer's lives have been put at risk, as well of the enormous costs of the rescue.
And rescuers choose their profession. They are not drafted against their will, and can quit at any time. The fact is, many rescuers are climbers themselves and take similar risks on their own excursions. Some are skiers who might every once in a while make a run when conditions are not ideal or against advice.

I've been up in some remote places in the worst of conditions back to my teens snow and ice climbing. It is always a calculated risk. Like motorsports, scuba diving, flying planes etc.

The media seems to be making a meal out of this one for some reason. As if it is the only high mountain fatality this year anywhere-USA; which I doubt.

----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

Cosmoline

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2006, 11:52:26 PM »
I was in high school when that group of students were lost.  They were from a nearby private school and included several friends of friends.  Mt. Hood is the second most climbed mountain on the planet, and on a good day you can go up with blue jeans and some soda pop.  But it can still kill. 

What I don't understand is why there's so much media attention to this.  It must be a slow news week or something. Dozens of people die up here every year on climbs and expeditions.

LadySmith

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,166
  • Veni, Vidi, Jactavi Calceos
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2006, 12:17:11 AM »
I suspect they're milking it for bleedover attention from the Kim tragedy.
Rogue AI searching for amusement and/or Ellie Mae imitator searching for critters.
"What doesn't kill me makes me stronger...and it also makes me a cat-lover" - The Viking
According to Ben, I'm an inconvenient anomaly (and proud of it!).

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2006, 08:40:35 AM »
Carebear, really?!?!

Give your dad a big old bear hug and a sincere "Thank You!" from me.  Tell him it's from one of those insane guys who flew low-level WC-135B reconnaissance sorties from Eielson over the North Pole at night, and that his and his successor's training of us crew dawgs was probably the biggest topic of discussion on those 8-10 hour sorties over the ice cap.  Not much to see and hear, other than the growling of the HF radios and some gorgeous Aurora Borealis.  Well, we did play Bingo among all the crew positions, and joked about the polar bears getting the slowest of the runners on board if we pancaked in from our 1,500 foot operational altitude...

We knew the instructors had coffee and warmth, but we also knew when the students weren't in the field or academics, the instructors were some busy folks requalifying each other, reviewing procedures, and gleaning real-life survival stories (like the current Mount Hood episode) for potential material, good, bad, or otherwise.

Honestly, the survival school instructors are some of my biggest heroes, including Combat Survival, Water Survival, Arctic Survival, and even those sadistic bastards at "Special" Survival.  They made a living out of surviving the harshest of environments, with a minimum of improvised equipment and a determined mindset, and then taught idiots like myself how to do the same. 

Then there was one really cute female Arctic Survival instructor at Eielson named Maggie.  I should've stayed in contact with her longer than I did.  angel
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

El Tejon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,641
    • http://www.kirkfreemanlaw.com
Re: The Mount Hood Thread
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2006, 08:47:37 AM »
Travel light, freeze at night.  And, makes you dead.

I listened to an "experienced" person once many moons ago about how "all you need" is to travel light up mountains--I nearly froze to death (everything was starting to shut down, fingers, feet, my tongue, had to keep rubbing my chest and moving).  I carried that "experiened" person off that mountain and he was airlifted out.

When we returned to camp, I had to be restrained because I almost got my hands on him.  He did not return with us preferring to fly instead.  The rest of the summer I made certain his life was a living hell.

If these poor guys were listening to some "experienced" person, then I feel sorry for them.

I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.