The Mount Hood Thread

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and say these guys did everything right and it isn't their fault they got burned. 

Climbing rough mountains in the wintertime isn't a bad idea, if you have the skills to handle it.  It seems these guys have the skills.  Climbing in bad weather in the wintertime is commonly done as a training measure, to give climbers practice and experience in those conditions which they'll need if they plan to climb the really big peaks in the good seasons.  Mt Hood and Rainier are often climbed in the winter by people who are training for expeditions up Everest and McKinley and so forth.  Climbing Hood in the wintertime isn't a stupid idea.

As for these specific climbers, it sounds like they knew exactly what they were doing and were properly trained, equipped, and aware of the necessary skills.  The only reason they didn't get up and down the mountian uneventfully was the fact that one of their party broke a bone.  It's just a bit of random bad luck that could have happened to anyone.  These sorts of risks apply whenever anyone goes into the wilds, and these climbers surely knew it.  They chose to proceed anyway and accept the potential consequences.  Such is their perogative. 

Once disaster struck they did about as well as anyone possibly could.  Unlike the Kim survival disaster, these climbers knew what to do and they did it to the best of their ability.  Some of them lost their life, some may still be saved.  That's life.  You give it your best shot, do the best things you can do to ensure your survival, and you hope for the best.  Sometimes you do everything right and still get burned. 

[Matthew Carberry]

Then there was one really cute female Arctic Survival instructor at Eielson named Maggie.  I should've stayed in contact with her longer than I did.

If only for warmth. 

One of the best books on the subject (survival in extremis) I've read.  It covers mostly mindset but also discusses how chaos theory applies when things start to go wrong.

http://www.deepsurvival.com/

[Gewehr98]

I strongly disagree, devil's advocate or otherwise.  In my professional opinion, they planned for failure from the outset, and succeeded - end of story, save for the burden on society to go retrieve their carcasses. It wasn't random bad luck that somebody experienced a fracture, they simply weren't prepared for that particular eventuality and it hindered their movements downslope. Unfortunately, it wasn't the first time, nor will it be the last time. Just witness all the frozen bodies currently littering Everest.   

[Perd Hapley]

Is there a difference in mindset here?  I.e., one set that puts their lives at risk just to put their lives at risk, versus another set that risks their lives for a greater goal?

[Cosmoline]

It seems really premature to start judging these guys.  We don't know the full story, we only know that for some reason they ran into trouble.  For all we know one of the three could have broken a leg or had some other problem and the other two had to risk their own lives to try to save him.  Indeed there are indications the one man they found had been injured.  Nor do we know what equipment they had with them. Climbing Hood in December is risky but it's been done many many times.  I see no justification for condemning these guys based on the info we have so far.

If you want to see something hideous, watch the Everest show on Discovery tonight.  It's going to show the highly controversial incident where dozens of climbers walked past a dying man in their effort to get to the summit.  The madness shown in that series is unbelievable.  There's a long line of climbers waiting to get to the top like they're buying toys at walmart.  It's disgusting. 

[Cosmoline]

It wasn't random bad luck that somebody experienced a fracture, they simply weren't prepared for that particular eventuality and it hindered their movements downslope.

How do you know any of this?

[InfidelSerf]

I'm suprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.
What disturbs me the most is not any monday morning quarterbacking I could come up with.
It's the extremely excessive media coverage this has received.
While I still think it's a distraction. I can understand to a point the excessive media coverage for a missing person. We actually CAN do something to help.

In this case NO ONE can do anything but watch the rescue workers do their job. (Nevermind that I don't think it should be provided by taxpayer services, rescue services for that kind of venture should be purely on you or your families dime. But that's another thread)

Why all the airtime??
It should have been a mention at the beginning of the week.. and then a follow up when they found them alive or dead. Nothing more.

[Cosmoline]

That's a real mystery.  There are countless cases where people get lost and die, both on mountains and in remote areas.  It happens all the time.  But for some reason there are certain cases that just seem to capture the public imagination, and a feeding frenzy starts.  Part of it has to do with what other news is on, and part of it has to do with the season. 

[gunsmith]

it's big news because it comes right on the heels of the family that got lost the week before.
The public loves these stories as much as thr loves the mountain lion/ grizzly bear attacks

[garyk/nm]

Easy solution: climbers are required to register at the appropriate ranger station and post a rescue bond. Forgot to do that? You're on your own. Period.
Please do not compare this to 911 emergency services. These folks know the risk and take it anyway. No way, no how is this an "accident".
All of this media attention is going to make it near impossible to go after the "estates" of the climbers for reimbursement of rescue costs. Too bad.

[280plus]

I believe they can bill the estate(s). Why not? Hopefully, for the families sake, they were well insured. I'll bet we're talking at least a couple million $ for the search and rescue.

[280plus]

Make that search and recovery...

[thebaldguy]

I hope someone gets charged for the rescue/recovery efforts. If you go out of bounds skiing/snowboarding and have to get rescued, you foot the bill.

[Ron]

With all the money our governments (Fed,State and local) piss away on BS, cutting funding for or charging people for being rescued should be pretty far down the list of government priorities.

The last thing you want a group of lost or stranded folks thinking is that they shouldn't call for help because they can't afford it.

[BobR]

I believe they can bill the estate(s).

I hope someone gets charged for the rescue/recovery

The last thing you want a group of lost or stranded folks thinking is that they shouldn't call for help because they can't afford it

In Oregon, the family of the lost can be charged for the cost of SAR up to 500.00 dollars. The rest of the cost is absorbed by the agencies involved in the search. It varies from state to state. The Blackhawks, C130's and Air Guard resources will most likely be chalked up to training funds.

bob

[meinbruder]

In Oregon, the family of the lost can be charged for the cost of SAR up to 500.00 dollars. The rest of the cost is absorbed by the agencies involved in the search. It varies from state to state. The Blackhawks, C130's and Air Guard resources will most likely be chalked up to training funds.
bob

That was exactly the discussion on the radio today.  The County sheriffs office mentioned the 500.00 cap and them grumbled about the 6500.00 per diem it cost them to co-ordinate the effort.  They did mention that all the searchers were volunteers, most of them climbers hoping to help a kindred soul, and the air guard resources were in fact being written off to training.  Sit in a simulator or train on the job, at least we got our tax dollars value on the effort.  BTW... a new storm is moving into the area tonight and the search was called off as of this afternoon.  It looks like the mountain swallowed a couple more climbers.
}:)>

[LAK]

We have, or should have, a healthy national guard force - whose advertizing as far back as I can remember - has featured people being rescued or aided in all kinds of predicaments.

Why should we start having to "pay" for what is already paid for in the form of real training for these units? Before individual climbers, skiers etc have to shell out for a bond or pay for this kind of thing - our hospitals need to put a complete stop on treating illegal aliens and not one cent of our tax money leaving the country in the form of "foreign aid". I am sick of paying for these people while being primed up to expect to have to dig into my pocket every time my feet hit the ground anywhere other than my own home.

As to these climbers; I keep reading about these guys "travelling light". Just how light did they go? What did they take, and not take, with them?

There are two general but not rigid approaches to tackling high mountains. One is the conventional approach with equipment as needed, extras and support. The other is the old "alpine ascent" - light and fast.  However, in terms of surviving low temps and a moderate stay at altitude it does not necessarily involve an excessive amount of gear or an enormous weight. A down sleeping bag or suit, a Goretex bivvy bag, a ground mat (essential) and a snow shovel will ensure one does not freeze to death.

The rest is a matter of food - and hydration. The latter more important than anything at altitude in extreme dry cold. And that means fuel; sufficient fuel to melt enough snow or ice for an extended bivouac. Food can be chosen as to be readily consumable cold and dry if needed.

-----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[280plus]

I don't know, I figure if people knew they or their estate would be billed for rescue efforts it might make a few of them think twice before setting off on these adventures. As for Everest, I'm sad to say I missed the Tuesday night portion but I did catch earlier segments of the same thing and I agree the whole thing has been turned into a travesty. The big question is, who's going to pay to remove all those dead bodies, spent O2 tanks and other mountains of random trash left by these people? I was taught to leave nature better than it was when you found it. As much as I'd like to say I'd summited Everest, I'm just as proud to say I haven't added my trash to the trash that's already there. But talk about an interesting way to make money. What's that, your loved one is frozen stiff at the top of Everest? For a "nominal" fee, we'll go get 'em for ya! 

[Cosmoline]

Actually, the dead on Everest and other high mountains are usually never brought down.  With Everest it's basically impossible to bring a body down from the death zone, so they're just left on the trail to slowly get eroded apart by the high winds.  There are quite a few around Denali as well.  On Hood at least it's a pretty easy matter to do cleanup days in the summer, though I've heard the trash problem on Everest is getting completely out of control.   Human waste, too, since it's too high up to biodegrate.

[280plus]

Yea, I knew that about your dead body vs coming back down. I was being facetious, I think...I'd have to look up facetious to be sure. 

Last I heard Sir Edmund Hillary was still frozen in time up there although he has eroded a bit. Apparently it takes a while. I just can't help thinking what a grisly expedition it must be passing all the dead ones on the way to and from. If the traffic keeps up it's recent pace you got to figure there'll be DBs from start to finish after a while. Then yes, where DOES all the excrement go? What fun!   

 

[Gewehr98]

Umm, 280, the old bird ain't frozen, and ain't dead, last I knew.

Matter of fact, Sir Edmund Hillary has recently spoken of his disdain for the attitudes displayed by many modern mountaineers. In particular he publicly criticised New Zealander Mark Inglis and 40 other climbers who, in various groups, left British climber David Sharp to die in May 2006. He said "I think the whole attitude towards climbing Mount Everest has become rather horrifying. The people just want to get to the top, it was wrong if there was a man suffering altitude problems and was huddled under a rock, just to lift your hat, say good morning and pass on by." He also told the New Zealand Herald that he was horrified by the callous attitude of todays climbers. "They dont give a damn for anybody else who may be in distress and it doesnt impress me at all that they leave someone lying under a rock to die.".

[Brad Johnson]

Matter of fact, Sir Edmund Hillary has recently spoken of his disdain for the attitudes displayed by many modern mountaineers. In particular he publicly criticised New Zealander Mark Inglis and 40 other climbers who, in various groups, left British climber David Sharp to die in May 2006. He said "I think the whole attitude towards climbing Mount Everest has become rather horrifying.

For someone with as much climbing and expeditionary expertise as Hillary has, that's an awful naive thing for him to say.  I presume he is inferring that the other climbers should have placed themselves at futher risk to try and rescue a man when, by all accounts, there simply wasn't anything that could be done.

A) There was no logistical way to get the man down without endangering many more lives in the process

B) If there had been the manpower, there was no way to recover the victim in any reasonable time to save him (if is condition was recouperable to begin with).

C) The climbers who attempt Everest rarely, if ever, do so alone. If the man was left behind he was first left behind by his own climbing party after they had determined he was unable to continue. Getting on another climbing party's case about leaving him behind is kinda redundant as well as being slightly hypocritical.

The climbers who attempt Everest know the score. You lose your wits in the death zone and get to the point where you can't make it on your own power, well... sorry. Hope you had a paid up insurance policy and said 'bye to the kids before you started. If you aren't smart enough to turn around when it becomes necessary then the only person to blame is yourself.

Brad

[280plus]

Hmmm, got my climbers mixed up I'd say. Who was the one who MAY have been first to the summit but never made it back so there was no confirmation?

[280plus]

Yup, make that George Mallory not Edmund Hillary. I was close... 

[Cosmoline]

They're still looking for the long lost camera from the Mallory expedition.  If they ever find it intact, and it has a snapshot of Mallory camping it up on the summit, expect some VERY choice words from Sir Edmund ;-)