Degree inflation: BA is the new high school diploma

[MillCreek]

http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2020409676_degreerequirexml.html

I wonder if the experience of this one Atlanta law firm is widely replicated. 

[mtnbkr]

Utter BS:

“College graduates are just more career-oriented,” said Adam Slipakoff, the firm’s managing partner. “Going to college means they are making a real commitment to their futures. They’re not just looking for a paycheck.”

I can't say I've seen too much degree inflation in IT.  It seems to be an industry that rewards ability over formal education.  I've worked with multiple people, at more than one company, who had nothing more than GEDs, experience, and drive.

A BA for a $10/hour job?  Only if that were an internship while I was working on a Master's degree...

Chris

[Fitz]

Utter BS:
I can't say I've seen too much degree inflation in IT.  It seems to be an industry that rewards ability over formal education.  I've worked with multiple people, at more than one company, who had nothing more than GEDs, experience, and drive.

A BA for a $10/hour job?  Only if that were an internship while I was working on a Master's degree...

Chris

This

[Hawkmoon]

The BA has been the de facto high school diploma for at least a couple of decades. It hasn't been so much that employers have been driving it as colleges who are only interested in churning out graduates for the money, and HS guidance counselors who don't want to injure any kid's tenuous sense of self esteem by explaining that with an IQ of 47 and a straight D- average all he/she is qualified to do is sweep floors in Wal-Mart at midnight. No, EVERYONE is encouraged to go to college, and most of them actually find a college that will accept them ... and then that college bend all sorts of rules because of the fear that grading honestly and flunking Mr. IQ=47 out after the first semester would be deemed discriminatory.

[Gewehr98]

I'd pay her more than $10/hr to do something other than deliver mail.   

[Ben]

I think IT is an outlier. From what I've seen in my 17 years in government, I'd almost be inclined to say that the Masters is the new High School diploma. Certainly this isn't true for everyone, no matter what their degree. I've seen extremely bright kids with BAs, and some outright dolts with PhDs.

There is no denying though, that "pass" for any degree has greatly degraded over the last 20-30 years. In our current educational system, your degree is what you make of it, whatever the level. In the past, you could use a degree as a primary indicator of ability, or as an equivalency for experience. Not so anymore based on my experience. Ironically and sadly, in the .gov at least, while degrees are less of an ability indicator, they are being weighed more heavily than experience than they were in the past. There is much too great a weighting on credentials over ability.

[AZRedhawk44]

I'd pay her more than $10/hr to do something other than deliver mail.  

 

Your comment made me actually click the link to see who you're talking about.  Ayup, quite the looker.

The reason she's a $10/hr mail deliverer and gopher is because she's a graduate of the Art Institute of Atlanta.  Rather than the University of Washington school of [something useful].

For the most part I love for-profit private enterprise... but not in the case of education.  Non-profit private schools seem to produce the most intelligent, thoughtful and driven graduates (not implying that thoughtful, intelligent and driven people don't exist outside of the realm of college educated people, or that other schools don't produce some of them).  Public schools do a decent job when you scrape the detritus of women's studies and basket weaving and other dross from the statistics.  But the U of Phx and DeVry and Northcentrals and Art Institute of Atlanta and other for-profit private schools are degree mills with minimal admissions requirements and minimal accountability during the education process.  The accountability is to the bottom line for the shareholders, rather than to the reputation of the degree.


ETA:  By "reputation of degree" I mean the legacy of the alumni.  If your alumni are predominantly mail gophers, barristas and government bureaucrats... it doesn't speak well for your institution's value in the world.  If your alumni are scientists, published authors with thought-provoking insights into topics, political office holders, business owners or executive officers... your institution has a greater reputation for producing usefully educated people.

[Boomhauer]

If I had known what I know now back in HS I would have never gone to college and wasted my time and money. Instead I believed the "you gotta go to college to be successful and get a job better than working at McDonalds."

[Gewehr98]

So you're saying her degree's not accredited?

I have more than a couple University of Phoenix alumni in my workplace - they're pretty darned sharp, IMHO. 

[Fitz]

Your comment made me actually click the link to see who you're talking about.  Ayup, quite the looker.

The reason she's a $10/hr mail deliverer and gopher is because she's a graduate of the Art Institute of Atlanta.  Rather than the University of Washington school of [something useful].

For the most part I love for-profit private enterprise... but not in the case of education.  Non-profit private schools seem to produce the most intelligent, thoughtful and driven graduates (not implying that thoughtful, intelligent and driven people don't exist outside of the realm of college educated people, or that other schools don't produce some of them).  Public schools do a decent job when you scrape the detritus of women's studies and basket weaving and other dross from the statistics.  But the U of Phx and DeVry and Northcentrals and Art Institute of Atlanta and other for-profit private schools are degree mills with minimal admissions requirements and minimal accountability during the education process.  The accountability is to the bottom line for the shareholders, rather than to the reputation of the degree.


ETA:  By "reputation of degree" I mean the legacy of the alumni.  If your alumni are predominantly mail gophers, barristas and government bureaucrats... it doesn't speak well for your institution's value in the world.  If your alumni are scientists, published authors with thought-provoking insights into topics, political office holders, business owners or executive officers... your institution has a greater reputation for producing usefully educated people.

Not all for profit schools are bad

I went to AMU. Plenty of smart folks in the military with degrees from there and Phoenix

The important thing is not the school, but regional and national accreditation through respected bodies

Meanwhile, I know plenty of useless dipsticks with paper from "respected " schools

[Fjolnirsson]

The BA has been the de facto high school diploma for at least a couple of decades. It hasn't been so much that employers have been driving it as colleges who are only interested in churning out graduates for the money, and HS guidance counselors who don't want to injure any kid's tenuous sense of self esteem by explaining that with an IQ of 47 and a straight D- average all he/she is qualified to do is sweep floors in Wal-Mart at midnight. No, EVERYONE is encouraged to go to college, and most of them actually find a college that will accept them ... and then that college bend all sorts of rules because of the fear that grading honestly and flunking Mr. IQ=47 out after the first semester would be deemed discriminatory.

That's been my experience. So much so, that I was surprised to see anyone would post the topic.

[AZRedhawk44]

G98:

Her degree is about as valuable to a law firm as a person from Collins College (a for-profit graphic design and video game design school currently going under here in PHX) would be.  It's a basket weaving degree from a basket weaving school.

That's why she's a mail gopher.  Well, that and people probably like watching her walk past their office.

If she got an accounting degree and her CPA certification, she'd be making 50-60k right out of school, though the letterhead on which her diploma would have been printed on would clash with her shoes.  

It all goes back to our regular complaint that some courses of study just shouldn't be eligible for federally subsidized financial aid.

So you're saying her degree's not accredited?

I have more than a couple University of Phoenix alumni in my workplace - they're pretty darned sharp, IMHO. 

Wait, you know someone who graduated from U-PHX?

Not all for profit schools are bad

I went to AMU. Plenty of smart folks in the military with degrees from there and Phoenix

The important thing is not the school, but regional and national accreditation through respected bodies

Meanwhile, I know plenty of useless dipsticks with paper from "respected " schools

You too?  From U-PHX?

Shocking.  How could you BOTH possibly know anyone who graduated from U-PHX?

They lay claim to nearly 400,000 students enrolled every year.  Given such a large student body size, it only stands to reason that they have produced students that you have met and respect.  You guys are well employed professionals that don't suffer fools and I'm sure there are more than a few U-fixers that weren't broken to begin with.  After all, when nearly all work is done in 4-person study groups and I've never heard of a 4-person study group that doesn't have at least 1 dead wheel or possibly 2-3 of them, that means at least 25% of their student body can actually learn and master coursework and meet deadlines.

[Gewehr98]

Actually, I'm looking at using my Wisconsin Veteran's GI Bill for another major from University of Phoenix, since they have a local campus here for after-hours classes.

Otherwise, I'm also thinking about using the Post-9/11 GI Bill for a degree from American Military University.

Either is fine with my current employer, it shows self-initiative and growth.

 

[Hawkmoon]

So you're saying her degree's not accredited?

I have more than a couple University of Phoenix alumni in my workplace - they're pretty darned sharp, IMHO. 

I think it's University of Phoenix that, if you try to actually figure out who and where they are, don't seem to have any physical address (at least, not available from their web site). Further, if you look up their accreditation, you find that they are accredited by an "accrediting" organization that seems to exist for the sole purpose of accrediting ... the University of Phoenix. The accrediting body also doesn't seem to have any physical address.

[Tallpine]

I think it's University of Phoenix that, if you try to actually figure out who and where they are, don't seem to have any physical address (at least, not available from their web site). Further, if you look up their accreditation, you find that they are accredited by an "accrediting" organization that seems to exist for the sole purpose of accrediting ... the University of Phoenix. The accrediting body also doesn't seem to have any physical address.

Seems like there was a University of Phoenix "campus" right next to the hotel where I was staying in San Diego 

[Boomhauer]

Seems like there was a University of Phoenix "campus" right next to the hotel where I was staying in San Diego 

They have several throughout the nation.

DeVry, Pheonix, ITT Tech, and Southern Wesleyan all advertise very heavily in my area...

[red headed stranger]

I think it's University of Phoenix that, if you try to actually figure out who and where they are, don't seem to have any physical address (at least, not available from their web site). Further, if you look up their accreditation, you find that they are accredited by an "accrediting" organization that seems to exist for the sole purpose of accrediting ... the University of Phoenix. The accrediting body also doesn't seem to have any physical address.

UoP is accreditited by the North Central Association of the Higher Learning Commission. This is one of the major accrediting bodies that accredits most of the universities in the Midwest and some of the more Western states. They also have regulated programs such as Nursing and Education that require additional regulatory compliance. Without these accreditations, state approvals and various bits of regulatory compliance, UoP students wouldn't have access to the various federal student aid programs. Many of UoP's policies and practices, when one looks closer, are rooted in keeping things in compliance to keep their gov't subsidized money rolling in. 

They have a combination of an online and many "ground campuses". The ground offerings are dependent on individual state educational requirements and demand in a given market for a given degree. 

After all, when nearly all work is done in 4-person study groups and I've never heard of a 4-person study group that doesn't have at least 1 dead wheel or possibly 2-3 of them, that means at least 25% of their student body can actually learn and master coursework and meet deadlines.

The general course guidelines for all UoP courses are that your grade is roughly 50% individual assignments, 30% Team Assignments, and 20% class participation. This a a formula put in place to stay in compliance with Carnegie Unit requirements. 

UoP fills a need for some people. Most particularly, those who need to "check a box" on an educational requirement. 

[KD5NRH]

It all goes back to our regular complaint that some courses of study just shouldn't be eligible for federally subsidized financial aid.

Not that they shouldn't be eligible, they should just be subject to the same sort of tests that I would require of someone wanting to borrow tuition money from me; will this person complete the degree, and if so, will it make them employable at a pay rate that will enable them to repay the loan on time?

[Fly320s]

If I had known what I know now back in HS I would have never gone to college and wasted my time and money. Instead I believed the "you gotta go to college to be successful and get a job better than working at McDonalds."

Same here. The only reason I went to college was because all of the airlines require a degree just to apply for a pilot job.

[Hawkmoon]

UoP is accreditited by the North Central Association of the Higher Learning Commission. This is one of the major accrediting bodies that accredits most of the universities in the Midwest and some of the more Western states.  

Okay, then it was not University of Phoenix I had in mind. Dunno who it was, then, but a couple or three years ago I was getting a metric boatload of spam from some alleged institution of higher learning and, when I looked into it, I found a very professional-looking website that allowed you to contact the (alleged) institution only through an on-line response form. No mailing address, no physical address, and no telephone number. No names of any faculty or administrators.

And they claimed to be "fully accredited," but when I started to run down the accrediting body I hit the same black hole. No way to contact them, no mailing address, no physical address, no telephone number. And it appeared that the only school they accredited was the one sending me the spam.

If it wasn't University of Phoenix, I wish I could remember who it was.

[Ben]

Okay, then it was not University of Phoenix I had in mind. Dunno who it was, then, but a couple or three years ago I was getting a metric boatload of spam from some alleged institution of higher learning and, when I looked into it, I found a very professional-looking website that allowed you to contact the (alleged) institution only through an on-line response form. No mailing address, no physical address, and no telephone number. No names of any faculty or administrators.

And they claimed to be "fully accredited," but when I started to run down the accrediting body I hit the same black hole. No way to contact them, no mailing address, no physical address, no telephone number. And it appeared that the only school they accredited was the one sending me the spam.

If it wasn't University of Phoenix, I wish I could remember who it was.

I know who you're talking about Hawkmoon, but can't remember the name either. It was indeed a few years ago that they were found out. There was a big todo in fed.gov because it turned out that some ridiculously high number of administrators in DC had "Masters" degrees from them.

[Tallpine]

Okay, then it was not University of Phoenix I had in mind. Dunno who it was, then, but a couple or three years ago I was getting a metric boatload of spam from some alleged institution of higher learning and, when I looked into it, I found a very professional-looking website that allowed you to contact the (alleged) institution only through an on-line response form. No mailing address, no physical address, and no telephone number. No names of any faculty or administrators.

And they claimed to be "fully accredited," but when I started to run down the accrediting body I hit the same black hole. No way to contact them, no mailing address, no physical address, no telephone number. And it appeared that the only school they accredited was the one sending me the spam.

If it wasn't University of Phoenix, I wish I could remember who it was.

Kaplan     

Same here. The only reason I went to college was because all of the airlines require a degree just to apply for a pilot job.

Without a college degree, you would not know how to party in distant cities during lay-overs     

[Crow1108]

Don't mean to threadjack, but what do ya'll think of UMUC? I'm working on a degree right now, and am wondering if I should keep bothering with them or go through a different school. I have another 10 years from when I retire from the service (or another 4 years on my current enlistment, with the way people are talking about drawing down the military), and don't want to waste my tuition assistance on something a potential interviewer is going to laugh me out of their office over.

[MechAg94]

I mainly work with engineers when it comes to degreed people.  IMO, you look at the well known institutions and good GPA's.  And that is just to thin things out for interviews.  If you can make it through a major engineering institution with a good degree and good GPA, you probably are not stupid. 

That said, our company puts engineers in jobs that don't need that degree and generally has trouble dealing with non-degreed professionals who are not in a management track.  We have two controls engineers who are very good, but have no degree.

IMO, A generic degree in an unnamed field of study is worthless except for whatever personal worth it has to you.  If you want a college degree to mean something, you need to focus on a field of study in demand and excel at it.  Breezing through with a C average is not a recipe for success.

As for that girl, a degree from an Art Institute is not going to be worth much by itself.  However, if she doesn't mind blue collar workers and engineering offices and doing sales, there are lots of valve, filter, and parts companies that hire "looker" sales ladies down this way.  They may not like the companies products, but they will let her come in and deliver a sales pitch.  Many I have had contact with are actually pretty sharp.

[MillCreek]

In terms of degree mills commonly used by government employees, you may be thinking of California Coast, Kennedy-Western, LaSalle or Hamilton.  Almeda University was for a while pretty popular as a degree mill with Washington police officers, until the state got wise to it.