Author Topic: Texas open carry bill submitted  (Read 9438 times)

Brad Johnson

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2011, 12:37:10 PM »
BTW, how you view the strict Texas laws is relative.

That's just it... Texas has no gun ownership laws.  Only conceal-carry laws.  Referring to them as "strict gun laws" creates an entirely incorrect image of how the state views firearms.

Middle of the pack?  Hardly.  You're ranking the state mid-pack on general gun rights based a single carry issue.  Again, it creates an entirely incorrect assessment of Texas' view and approach to general firearms ownership rights, especially if those comments are overheard by fence-sitters and curious non-gunnies.  Yes, I want the carry regs improved, and steps are being taken to address that.  As for the rest, having no state-level firearm ownership regs suits me just fine.

Brad
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 12:40:43 PM by Brad Johnson »
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CSM Kersh

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2011, 12:52:22 PM »

As expected, there was strong feelings on both sides of the issue yesterday.  Those, like myself, believe that self-secruity begins with ourselves, not the campus cops or city police who, like at Columbian, may be half an hour away. 


http://www.statesman.com/news/texas-politics/guns-on-campus-bill-gets-first-ok-1326712.html

Quote
Guns-on-campus bill gets first OK - sort of

Lengthy hearing draws strong reactions from both sides of issue.     

As the controversial issue of guns on college campuses got its first public hearing at the state Capitol on Wednesday, a standing-room-only crowd staked their positions on five House bills that would allow licensed handguns to be carried on public university and college campuses, at public junior colleges and at public technical schools.

The main bill, carried by Rep. Joe Driver, R-Garland , was approved 5-3 late Wednesday by the Homeland Security and Public Safety Committee. It proceeds to the full House. A similar Senate bill is set to be discussed in a public hearing next week.




 
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seeker_two

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2011, 01:23:38 PM »
You know, everybody bitches about how anti-constitutional Texas gun laws are.  Bullshit.  Only when it comes to carrying (which, thanks to this bill, is potentially going to get a little better).  As far as general gun OWNERSHIP, Texas has exactly zero laws to abide by.  They revert to the fed regs.  

Yes, you can OWN a gun and KEEP it in your home or car. But, if you want to have a gun on your person, you have to pay $140 (+ training & fingerprinting fees) to get a "mother-may-I" card from the DPS...just as long as no one sees it, that is. And don't even think about keeping it in your car if the parking lot owner prohibits it...even if they have to illegally search your car to find it.

Mix fresh milk with sour milk....you still get sour milk....

And poor people, they don't need guns either (If you can't spend $200 a month on range dues and ammo, why would you carry a gun?  )  I've been shocked by some of the conversations I've seen at texaschlforum.com....


That's why I don't frequent that site anymore.....bunch of pseudo-FUDD's.....  :mad:
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 02:19:28 PM by seeker_two »
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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2011, 01:43:28 PM »
Brad: so your argument is that since you're better than MA, NJ etc your guns laws are great? I lol'ed.

And while carry is a single issue, it's a pretty damned important one. "We love women here! Sure, we don't let them vote or own property, but we aren't nearly as bad as some places on the issue!"  ;/
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2011, 02:20:29 PM »
Cherry picking, still...

Yes, the issue is important.  Yes, it is being addressed.  Yes, I want it to change.  But making open/concealed carry the deciding factor when determining Texas' overall pro-gun stance is missing the forest for the trees.  It's a single aspect of a much larger issue, and to say the state is a draconian place for gun owners based on that single issue is, at best, grossly naive.  To constantly belabor the point while completely ignoring that it's only one part of an overall net-positive is a good way to have people dismiss your opinion in favor of one more inclusive.

Brad
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seeker_two

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2011, 02:42:08 PM »

Yes, the issue is important.  Yes, it is being addressed.  Yes, I want it to change.  But making open/concealed carry the deciding factor when determining Texas' overall pro-gun stance is missing the forest for the trees. 


It is when you're looking a scale that ranges from draconian to moderatly-Fudd to Constitutional. Texas is closer to Fudd than Constitutional right now....but, as you said, the movement is heading in the right direction.

Maybe it'll get better once we foist Perry and Dewhurst onto the national scene and get some proper Conservatives in Austin....
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2011, 03:36:42 PM »
The more I look into Texas gun laws, the more surprised I am about how much worse they are than a lot of other states.  Texas has a rep for being a serious pro-gun state, but the facts indicate otherwise.  I don't see any real restrictions on purchase or ownership of firearms, but open carry is completely prohibited and concealed carry has some pretty obnoxious restrictions.

Indiana, where I used to live, is head and shoulders better than Texas.  North Carolina, where I live now, is better than Texas by a nose, having similarly restrictive CCW requirements but no prohibition of open carry.  

Tejon is right about Texas being middle-of-the-pack.  Some states are better, a lot are about equal, and some are much worse.  Texas is not exemplary or a leader on RKBA.  Texans may not like hearing that, but it's true nonetheless

Brad Johnson

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2011, 04:05:37 PM »
I don't see any real restrictions on purchase or ownership of firearms

What about "Texas has no state laws regarding ownership, they revert to federal laws" is so hard to understand?

For those who seem to want to run this into the ground I will summarize Texas law directly relating to the purchase and ownership of firearms.

...THERE FRIGGIN' ARE NONE!!

Texas has exactly no laws in terms of purchase and ownership.  They allow the fed regs to stand.  There is no registration.  There is no limit on how many.   None.  As in nada, zip, zilch zero.

The laws regarding carry are completely removed from the purchase and ownership laws.  Seperate issue.  Totally unrelated.  Yet many of you keep trying to lump them together.  Don't.  It confuses people and dilutes your ability to effectively deal with the issue at hand.

Again, saying "Texas gun laws are draconian and you Texan's don't want to hear it" is a non-statement.  It is an incorrect over-generalization that combines two unrelated topics.  Berating Texans for trying to get you to understand there IS a difference doesn't do much for your credibility, either. 

If you want people to look at you, shake their head, and sigh, then keep using the incorrectly inclusive "Texas gun laws".  It incorrectly infers that Texas is some kind of backwater gun-hating utopia.  If you want to truly deal with the issue, specify that you are addressing Texas CARRY laws as relatively restrictive compared to some places (which they are).

[/rant off]

Brad
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 04:38:02 PM by Brad Johnson »
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2011, 04:16:12 PM »
 :O

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2011, 04:29:49 PM »
I'll echo Brad in some of his writings WRT gun ownership in Texas.  Even the chief LEOs in most urban areas are good-to-go with NFA items.  No need to set up a trust to own NFA stuff because your CLEO is an ass.  And most DAs are great relative to self defense, as the many "Texas homeowner/grandmother/businessowner shoots the hell outta someone and the rest of the country is outraged (to include 1/2 of THR, TFL, etc.) he is no-billed," stories have shown.

IOW, Brad is correct in that Texas has no state gun ownership laws to speak of, the elected & appointed bureaucritters are sympathetic, and the population as a whole is jealously protective.

Concealed carry is darned good  and gets more liberal most every session of the legislature, shedding those "reasonable" restrictions required to get shall-issue CHL on the books in the first place.  I'd like it even more liberal and I want open carry legal, too.  TSRA has done yeoman work over the years and every session, making steady progress.

Pretty much the only thing keeping Texas from the top of the heap are:
1. Open carry.  Frankly, open carry is a "nice to have" but definitely sloppy seconds relative to concealed carry.  OC laws are not enforced in great swaths of the state.

2. Fewer & fewer location restrictions WRT CHL.  Texas makes businesses that don't want CHLers on their property jump through hoops, declaring they are anti-liberty schmoes.  I know of two places in DFW that roll that way.

3. The Holy Grail: Constitutional Carry.  Until we get this, what we got is pretty darned good.

FTR, I have had CHLs in several states and Texas's has been the least restrictive and not any costlier on a per-year basis than the other states I had a CHL in.

Rating TX middle of the pack is ignorant.  It is not constitutional Carry Nirvana, yet, but we're closer than most and making progress every session.
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roo_ster

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CSM Kersh

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2011, 04:37:12 PM »

Also, we need to remind all that while there's currently no open carry of a handgun, there is no restriction on possession of a rifle or shotgun, loaded or not except in courthouses, jail houses, bars and liquor stores.  Been that way damned near forever. 

 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2011, 04:57:54 PM »
Teaxas concealed carry isn't particularly good, IMO. 

If I understand correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), obtaining a Texas permit requires one to take a course, pass a range test (with the right kind of gun, no less), have passport photos made, apply for the permit, then and wait a few months for it to arrive.  The class costs you about ~$100 and takes an entire day, plus the ammo costs for the test.  The permit itself costs $140 and is only good for 4 years.

So overall, you're looking at spending $250 or $300, not including the value of your time, just for a permit that lasts 4 years.  Once you have the permit, there's a laundry list of places you still aren't allowed to carry concealed.  You can only carry the kind of gun you qualified with (don't take the test with a revolver and carry a semiauto).  And you can NEVER carry open.

I just went through NC's carry permit process, which seems to be fairly similar to TX's.  It sucked.

I much preferred Indiana's system where you simply fill out the form at the police station and pay a modest fee ($20 for a 4 year permit, $100 for a lifetime permit) and then get your permit in the mail 2 weeks later.  Even that's a bit bothersome, but it's a helluva lot easier than dealing with the onerous Texas or NC systems.

From what I understand, most state CCW systems are similar to the NC/TX process, requiring training courses, tests, hefty fees, short permit durations, and restrictions on where the permit is valid.  So you can see why I agree that the Texas system is about average, middle of the pack.  It isn't quite as good as Indiana's permit process, and it definitely isn't as good as the no-permit-needed states like Vermont, but it's better than states like California or New York.

seeker_two

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2011, 05:04:08 PM »

The laws regarding carry are completely removed from the purchase and ownership laws.  Seperate issue.  Totally unrelated.  Yet many of you keep trying to lump them together.  Don't.  It confuses people and dilutes your ability to effectively deal with the issue at hand.

.....

If you want people to look at you, shake their head, and sigh, then keep using the incorrectly inclusive "Texas gun laws".  It incorrectly infers that Texas is some kind of backwater gun-hating utopia.  If you want to truly deal with the issue, specify that you are addressing Texas CARRY laws as relatively restrictive compared to some places (which they are).


Except that the conversation so far has been about ALL of Texas' gun laws....so you seem to be the one cherry-pickin' here, my fellow Texan....  ;/
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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2011, 05:14:04 PM »
If we can get this passed, we need to deal with our antiquated and idiotic knife and other weapon laws. Arkansas, IIRC, simply ixnayed all of their knife laws in one fell swoop. We should do the same.

Quote
You can only carry the kind of gun you qualified with (don't take the test with a revolver and carry a semiauto)
Some silly ass no doubt decided that .380 (or is it .32?) was the minimum caliber acceptable for self defense, so that was the minimum caliber you were allowed to shoot with.

And the revolver/semi thing - if you do the shooting portion with a semi, you can carry anything you like. If you do it with a revolver, you can only carry a revolver. Why? Because people who can run automatics are cool. Or something. It's not like there are any malfunction drills or reloading drills in the shooting part - just simple "load 5 rounds and fire at the target when you're told."

Does the IN permit allow you to skip a NICS check when buying a gun?

Of course, for the price I expect to get a junior g-man badge.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2011, 05:22:53 PM »
 
Teaxas concealed carry isn't particularly good, IMO. 

If I understand correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), obtaining a Texas permit requires one to take a course, pass a range test (with the right kind of gun, no less), have passport photos made, apply for the permit, then and wait a few months for it to arrive.  The class costs you about ~$100 and takes an entire day, plus the ammo costs for the test.  The permit itself costs $140 and is only good for 4 years.
....
So overall, you're looking at spending $250 or $300, not including the value of your time, just for a permit that lasts 4 years.  Once you have the permit, there's a laundry list of places you still aren't allowed to carry concealed.  You can only carry the kind of gun you qualified with (don't take the test with a revolver and carry a semiauto).  And you can NEVER carry open.


Again, with the unwarranted cynicism...

Yes, you have to pass a range test, but the snide "with the right kind of gun" is unwarranted.  Anything .32 caliber center-fire or larger qualifies as "the right gun".  Once qualified there is no caliber restriction on what you can carry.

Your assessment of what you can carry vs your qualification is also incorrect.  You are not restricted to "only carrying the type of gun you qualifed with"  If you qualify with a revolver then you are limited to carrying a revolver.  If you qualify with a semi-auto you can carry anything you can keep concealed, revolver or otherwise.

Classes do indeed cost around $100.  Most also include the range time for qualification, which is also part of the "most of a day" time figure you mentioned.  Qualification takes 50 rounds.  Less if you keep all your shots on target at the 3 and 7 yard lines. (Do that and you've already score high enough to pass without having to shoot the 15 yard drill). After qualifying I usually stay and burn up a lot more ammo than that.

Yes, the permit lasts four years, but the renewal is a limited version of the original class.  (Half day).  As a result there are many renewal-only classes that cost anywhere from two-thirds to just half what the full-day initial class costs, including qualifying.  On the third renewal you get a 10 yr permit instead of a 4.

Yes, there are certain PUBLIC places you can't carry but the list is fairly short and very well defined.  Private business are free to allow or restrict carry as the property owner desires.  To restrict carry they must place an large and quite obnoxious sign with very specific wording at every entrance.  Most property owners realize the sign might as well say "Disarmed Victims Here" and have chosen not to post them.  (I am big on property owners' rights, so I'm VERY okay with this.  I don't patronize businesses that post the sign, of course, but it's still their right as the owner to make that choice.)

Yes, Texas is in the "middle of the pack" when it comes to carry laws.   But we're working on it an making regular, substantive, significant gains and, thankfully, have a generally pro-gun public and government stance.  I'll take that.  I'll darn sure take it over a bunch of other places.

Question for those in the know, since we're talking about carry vs general ownership, are there any of the open carry or easy-permit states that DO have more strict state-level laws regarding general firearms ownership?  (In other words, the reverse of what we have here in Texas?)

Brad
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 05:33:33 PM by Brad Johnson »
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2011, 05:27:54 PM »
Except that the conversation so far has been about ALL of Texas' gun laws....so you seem to be the one cherry-pickin' here, my fellow Texan....  ;/

Incorrect.  The conversation is about concealed carry.  It drifted into "Texas gun laws are draconian" as a general sentiment, not one address directly (and correctly) at carry laws.  The two issues may be related in that they both involve firearms but in application they are mutually exclusive.  I am simply trying to get people to properly group and refer to them as such.

Brad
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seeker_two

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2011, 05:37:06 PM »
Yes, Texas is in the "middle of the pack" when it comes to carry laws.   But we're working on it an making regular, substantive, significant gains and, thankfully, have a generally pro-gun public and government stance.  I'll take that.  I'll darn sure take it over a bunch of other places.


Your concession and stance is gladly accepted, my fellow Texan......  =D
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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2011, 06:03:37 PM »
Incorrect.  The conversation is about concealed carry.  It drifted into "Texas gun laws are draconian" as a general sentiment, not one address directly (and correctly) at carry laws.  The two issues may be related in that they both involve firearms but in application they are mutually exclusive.  I am simply trying to get people to properly group and refer to them as such.

Brad

All concealed carry laws are draconian and do not provide people with any more freedom than they already should have had.
My beef with Texas' gun laws are that much was written into the law to obviously placate the ninnys.  People rattle on about how free it is, yet the CHL program is one of the most expensive and restrictive in the country. 
Will this OC law be a step in the right direction? Yeah. But restricting OC to people with CHL permits?  Doesn't make anyone more free.

Quote
Yes, you have to pass a range test, but the snide "with the right kind of gun" is unwarranted.  Anything .32 caliber center-fire or larger qualifies as "the right gun".  Once qualified there is no caliber restriction on what you can carry.

Not correct.  If you qualify with an NSA (Non Semi Automatic), you can only carry an NSA.  You have to requalify SA (Semi Auto) to be able to carry SA.



« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 06:10:33 PM by JamisJockey »
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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2011, 06:15:43 PM »
Minnesota has good carry laws, but poor ownership laws. We can also do private transfers without a FFL. If you want to buy an "assault weapon" or pistol you need a CCW, or extra paperwork at the FFL, or a purchase permit. The purchase permit is free, and shall issue, so it is not really a big deal. We ban machine guns and sound suppressors, and have a few other dumb laws on the books.
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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2011, 06:25:11 PM »
never mind, i'll be good...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 06:47:48 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Brad Johnson

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2011, 06:39:44 PM »
Not correct.  If you qualify with an NSA (Non Semi Automatic), you can only carry an NSA.  You have to requalify SA (Semi Auto) to be able to carry SA.


Didn't get quite that far down in my post before hitting the reply button, didja.  I specifically addressed the SA/NSA restriction.  The statement you quoted was specific to caliber, not gun type.

Brad
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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2011, 07:01:41 PM »
My beef with Texas' gun laws are that much was written into the law to obviously placate the ninnys.  People rattle on about how free it is, yet the CHL program is one of the most expensive and restrictive in the country.  
Will this OC law be a step in the right direction? Yeah. But restricting OC to people with CHL permits?  Doesn't make anyone more free.

I agree on the comment about the "ninnys".  You weren't here in the 80's and 90's.  It is only in the last 10 years that the Texas Legislature has been a solid Republican Majority.  The state is fairly conservative, but a lot of those small town conservative Democrats took their sweet time figuring out they needed to change their party outside the local level.  My grandmother was one.  Clinton's exploits in office did a whole lot to change that.

Because of all that, there used to be a lot more moderate and liberal Democrats in the state legislature whose votes were needed to get this stuff passed.  When Gov Bush was here in the 90's he was still working with a lot of Democrats in the legislature.  When conservative bills got passed, it was usually only with a lot of concessions built in.  Thus the original CHL has a lot of weird stuff built in.  

Last, the Texas Legislature only meets for 6 months every two years.  Changes are slow.  I like it that way, but changes for the better also take time.  "Conservative" is sometimes a 2-way street.
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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2011, 07:03:16 PM »
Didn't get quite that far down in my post before hitting the reply button, didja.  I specifically addressed the SA/NSA restriction.  The statement you quoted was specific to caliber, not gun type.

Brad

Ah, see that now.  

I still stand by my position.  I'll be more convinced about how free Texas is when unrestricted open carry or constitutional concealed carry hit the books.  
JD

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Brad Johnson

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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2011, 07:17:30 PM »
I agree on the comment about the "ninnys".  You weren't here in the 80's and 90's.  It is only in the last 10 years that the Texas Legislature has been a solid Republican Majority.  The state is fairly conservative, but a lot of those small town conservative Democrats took their sweet time figuring out they needed to change their party outside the local level.  My grandmother was one.  Clinton's exploits in office did a whole lot to change that.

Because of all that, there used to be a lot more moderate and liberal Democrats in the state legislature whose votes were needed to get this stuff passed.  When Gov Bush was here in the 90's he was still working with a lot of Democrats in the legislature.  When conservative bills got passed, it was usually only with a lot of concessions built in.  Thus the original CHL has a lot of weird stuff built in. 

Last, the Texas Legislature only meets for 6 months every two years.  Changes are slow.  I like it that way, but changes for the better also take time.  "Conservative" is sometimes a 2-way street.


Wurd.

That we got what we got at all was pretty darned amazing, mostly due to a rising tide of concealed carry legislation elsewhere in the country and not from any zest for it by the majority of reps. It's been improved with clarifications removal of the more unrealistic or unreasonable restrictions over the years, and I can live with that for now.  At least we have a solidly pro-gun majority at this point, so one can always hope... :)

Brad
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Re: Texas open carry bill submitted
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2011, 08:49:46 PM »
Texas doesn't recognize my MN carry permit.  All the states between here and TX do.  So when I get to Texas I can only carry in my car or truck, or on certain private property. (not that big a deal, I just thought I'd add it to the pile.)
"It's good, though..."