Author Topic: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle  (Read 13021 times)

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Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« on: May 21, 2008, 03:07:08 PM »
Assuming again Military Times

Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
By Matthew Cox - Staff Writer
Posted : Wednesday May 21, 2008 10:37:29 EDT

DALLAS  The Army and the Marine Corps both want a new, long-range sniper rifle, designed to kill enemy out to 1,800 meters.

While details are sketchy, the Corps-led program is aimed at selecting a long-range anti-personnel sniper weapon to complement the standard 7.62mm sniper rifle, a weapon thats effective out to 800 meters.

We are looking at about a 1,500- to 1,800-meter range to engage man-sized targets at those ranges  that is going to be a challenge, we know that, Lt. Col. Tracy Tafalla, program manager for infantry weapons at Marine Corps System Command, said Tuesday at the International Infantry & Joint Services Small Arms Systems Symposium.

Army Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of the Armys Directorate of Combat Developments at Fort Benning, Ga., told a mixed audience of small-arms industry representatives and military officials that the Army also wants a capability that really allows the trained sniper to engage targets at very long distances.

The Army and the Marines both use versions of a .50-caliber sniper rifle  a weapon with a range out to 2,000 meters  but is mainly intended to hit and destroy targets larger than personnel, such as light-skinned vehicles.

Neither service gave details as to what caliber the new weapon would fire or when it might be fielded.
Tafalla said it would be several months before industry would see a request for proposal for the new system.
Radcliffe and Tafalla also briefly discussed other upcoming programs for soldiers and Marines in the precision shooting line of work.

The Army wants a new squad-designated marksman rifle, Radcliffe said.
Currently, SDMs in an infantry squad carry older, 7.62 mm M14 rifles with long-range optics to fill the gap between riflemen who shoot out to 300 meters and snipers who shoot out to 800 meters.

Radcliffe gave no timeline for the program but said the Army wants a weapon that looks similar to the M4 carbine.
We think it will be a carbine look-alike, so he doesnt stand out in the formation, and make an obvious target for the enemy, Radcliffe said. He added that the new weapon would likely be chambered for 5.56mm and be able to hit targets out to 600 meters.

The Marines, on the other hand, want a new semiautomatic sniper rifle to replace their M40 bolt-action sniper weapon.
Marines in the combat zone want it now. Actually, they wanted it months ago, Tafalla told industry representatives, adding that he expects to have a program document outlining the specifications ready with in a month.

The Army recently began fielding the M110 Semiautomatic Sniper System chambered for 7.62mm, but Tafalla indicated that the Marines may want something else.

We will take a look at those weapons within the system, he said. But right now & Im not sure if there is anything that we have in the [Defense Departments inventory] thats going to meet that requirement.
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jrfoxx

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2008, 03:28:37 PM »
Quote
The Army and the Marines both use versions of a .50-caliber sniper rifle  a weapon with a range out to 2,000 meters  but is mainly intended to hit and destroy targets larger than personnel, such as light-skinned vehicles.
So, rather than get a whole new gun, and maybe caliber, cant they just the .50 to shoot at people too? I guess I dont get why the article implies they need a new gun, becuse the one they have is for "light-skinned vehicles", not people, s,o "darn, we cant use his one, its not  made for people....." Seems lke it would work just fine to me even if the manual says "light-skinned vehicles, only.No people".Jut change the manual, problem solved. grin

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2008, 03:34:05 PM »
Quote
The Army and the Marines both use versions of a .50-caliber sniper rifle  a weapon with a range out to 2,000 meters  but is mainly intended to hit and destroy targets larger than personnel, such as light-skinned vehicles.
So, rather than get a whole new gun, and maybe caliber, cant they just the .50 to shoot at people too? I guess I dont get why the article implies they need a new gun, becuse the one they have is for "light-skinned vehicles", not people, s,o "darn, we cant use his one, its not  made for people....." Seems lke it would work just fine to me even if the manual says "light-skinned vehicles, only.No people".Jut change the manual, problem solved. grin

Two problems with the .50 - portability and legality. My understanding is that shooting a human with a .50 caliber is frowned upon by at least half of your local JAG. You are supposed to wait until they get in vehicle or building before it is OK to break out the Barrett. I for one do not want to lug a .50 cal more than about a 1/4 mile. I'm 5'6", 150 and the other crap they make you carry weighs enough by itself.

Gewehr98

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2008, 04:01:42 PM »
Yup.  Per JAG rules, the .50 BMG has always been considered an anti-materiel round, so you won't see it referred to as a sniper rifle in the official vernacular.

It doesn't mean that you cannot "accidentally" pop a combatant while he's in his vehicle or behind cover, but that's not the intended role.  Wink
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2008, 04:17:48 PM »
What about the Barrett .416? That's a pretty serious sniper rifle.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2008, 04:23:00 PM »
What happened to the Lapua?

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2008, 05:23:42 PM »
So the .50 isn't considered an anti personnel round, but does that mean they can actually get in trouble for using it on people?  Or just that they don't really consider it when they look for a sniper rifle?
Odd.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2008, 05:25:16 PM »
What about the Barrett .416? That's a pretty serious sniper rifle.

Seems like a reasonable alternative. Or even better.

Scout26

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2008, 05:37:54 PM »
The whole .50 cal can't be used on troops/people is a myth.  The Hague Convention is about types of weapons/ammo, not size.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm

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The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2008, 05:43:06 PM »
So the .50 isn't considered an anti personnel round, but does that mean they can actually get in trouble for using it on people?  Or just that they don't really consider it when they look for a sniper rifle?
Odd.

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2008, 05:50:55 PM »
The .50BMG rifles are large & heavy.

If the sniper's mission is anti-personnel, toting those extra lbs means he leaves other gear behind or can stay out on a mission for less time.

Also, I would hate like hell to have to jump one of those Barrets.

The .416 Barret offerings are no better, weight-wise.

Something from .300Winmag to .338Lapua would fit that niche quite well.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2008, 05:52:22 PM »
The whole .50 cal can't be used on troops/people is a myth.  The Hague Convention is about types of weapons/ammo, not size.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm

Quote
The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.


Sorry, but if it can be questioned on a public forum like this one, it will be questioned in a courts martial proceeding at some point. That is the political climate we live in.

If we ban porn among the troops due to "cultural sensitivities" you can be sure some commanders prohibit the use of .50 cal weapons at various levels.

There are four different Geneva conventions. I wouldn't be surprised if none of them prohibit using a .50 caliber weapon against an unarmored target. Doesn't mean you aren't told "no" when it comes to using one in combat.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2008, 05:56:59 PM »

Bigjake

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2008, 02:37:46 AM »
Don't the Brits roll with that Accuracy International thing in .338 already?

Bigjake

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2008, 02:40:04 AM »
found it

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn06-e.htm

I'd seen those guys on a discovery special last year, seemed impressive enough.


El Tejon

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2008, 02:45:44 AM »
So, we can't just to bug the British and check out the AIW?  How about the Germans?

Both of these countries have been using such a rig for a while now.
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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2008, 03:03:24 AM »
5.56mm out to 600 meters without the benefit of a hollow/soft point?  I use .223 55grain JSP's deer hunting, but most of my shots are within 100m.  Even with the JSP, there's not a hell of a lot of knockdown power on a Hill Country white tail. They'll run for a bit unless you head shoot.

I think I'd rather have the .308 at that distance.
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Balog

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2008, 05:26:01 AM »
Are we bound by those retarded "no soft point" treaties forever?
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wmenorr67

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2008, 06:16:41 AM »
Are we bound by those retarded "no soft point" treaties forever?

Until the UN gets all bullets outlawed.
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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2008, 06:31:43 AM »
The whole .50 cal can't be used on troops/people is a myth.  The Hague Convention is about types of weapons/ammo, not size.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm

Quote
The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.


Sorry, but if it can be questioned on a public forum like this one, it will be questioned in a courts martial proceeding at some point. That is the political climate we live in.

If we ban porn among the troops due to "cultural sensitivities" you can be sure some commanders prohibit the use of .50 cal weapons at various levels.

There are four different Geneva conventions. I wouldn't be surprised if none of them prohibit using a .50 caliber weapon against an unarmored target. Doesn't mean you aren't told "no" when it comes to using one in combat.

Well, using that logic, if they were using pea shooters, we could question it on a public forum and they could be court martialed.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

Gewehr98

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2008, 09:41:02 AM »
I don't think Scout understands.

The Hague Conventions and the DoD Judge Advocate's Group are two exclusive parties.  The several Hague Conventions may not say a given round is suitable for warfare, but the JAG can place further restrictions on what is and isn't allowed on the battlefield.  That's how the dice roll, and there were several times when the JAG had the final say on my B-52H and WC-135 sorties.   

It just means that the .50 BMG is ruled an anti-materiel round (Yes, the spelling is right, google "materiel" sometime).  It does NOT mean that enemy casualties cannot result during the use of said anti-materiel weapon.  Even JAG isn't that naieve. 
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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lupinus

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2008, 10:27:46 AM »
so why is it ok to whip out the full auto weapon firing the round and turn the guy into hamburger at a few hundred yars...but it's not ok to shoot him at a few thousand yards once to the same effect?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2008, 10:29:21 AM »
so why is it ok to whip out the full auto weapon firing the round and turn the guy into hamburger at a few hundred yars...but it's not ok to shoot him at a few thousand yards once to the same effect?

Welcome to international bureaucracy.

Dannyboy

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2008, 10:32:12 AM »
That's odd.  I distinctly remember numerous Laws of Land Warfare briefings, conducted by JAG lawyers, where we were told that the .50 cal was acceptable to use against people.
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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2008, 12:51:55 PM »
Wouldn't it be cheaper just to adopt the .50 and shoot all the JAG's?.....
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